Arrow General Discussion Thread - - - - Part 18

Discussion in 'Arrow' started by Thread Manager, Feb 9, 2015.

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  1. Loki882 Registered

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    The "mystery" wasn't even all that compelling. It was basically the same damn thing every episode. "This person might have, oh no they didn't. Well this person must have done, oh wait no they didn't do it either." Rinse and repeat. It was dull and boring and made me miss Sara even more. Add to that that the resolution was both predictably and lame, plus Malcolm's "plan" makes no freaking sense whatsoever (and is making LESS and LESS sense by the episode ironically), it was just a misfire on every level.

    As I've said before, if they absolutely HAD to kill her off (which they didn't btw), then they should have done so last season. At least Slade killing her would have made more sense and fit better, rather than having her leave, then reappear in the very next solely for the purpose of dying.
     
  2. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    I'll check the link when I get back, thanks. :up:

    The Red Hood story derives it's power from genuinely challenging Batman's code and making the reader think about how flawed it is and how questionable it makes Batman's motivations. Ollie has stopped killing, his allowing of Malcolm to live has brought about more death and destruction, Sara challenging him on this would be great IMO, but her as a villain was merely a side suggestion not something I definitely think should happen.

    The problem with all of this is that it's merely about Laurel and who she can interact with and personally I don't have any real interest in seeing her with these characters as a whole, I'd much rather see her moved to another show with Sara and Nyssa, and allow Team Arrow to be more streamlined with Thea taking the female in the field role as her and Roy out there together interests me far greater than anything with Laurel in the field.

    They have done a solid job with Laurel this season but I'd rather see her as far away from Ollie as possible and in a BoP spin-off Sara and Nyssa and maybe even Katana can pick up the action slack that has been there since Cassidy became Canary, as well as giving the CW an all female led action show which surely can't be seen as a negative.

    They've took Laurel as far as they can in the Arrow world without going into the unholy water of putting her and Ollie together. On the other hand Sara was just getting into her stride when she was killed to perpetuate Laurel's arc.
     
  3. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    I actually dug the mystery, specifically the Komodo and Roy/Guilty episodes. Roy being quite possibly the guy didn't bore me one tiny bit.

    It wasn't until Malcolm, the resurrected fan-favorite, was involved that it was dumb. If they had made it a plot by, perhaps, I don't know, the big bad of the series, Ra's, to get Arrow to prove himself as worthy heir, that would have been fly. Right now, we have Arrow being offered with no proof, and a Malcolm that no one knows what to do with.

    Such will be the fate if Sara comes back to Arrow. Dumb big bad because he didn't do something that Sara was shoehorned into, and eventually a Sara that no one knows what to do with.
     
  4. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    My pleasure. I'm actually kind of excited about it. HIVE or HIVE vs Argus offers some really cool stuff.

    Well said, part of it is challenging Batman's moral code in a big way. But that's been done before in various no-name storylines and by every Marvel fanboy this side of Vlatava. What made it powerful was who said it, was the reveal, someone who was a "victim" of Bruce's moral code. That's why the reveal was such a big deal... because it was.

    Her as a villain, imho, is the most interesting thing they could do if they put her back on Arrow. Essentially, like Jason Todd, making her a different character affected by the previous character. That's the best way to keep from sending the show backwards. Even now, Jason Todd needs to be an Anti-hero or his new character becomes pointless.

    That's really not fair. I detailed Roy, Diggle, Felicity, multiple times, and gave Laurel-less examples each time. I can write up just as long a set of paragraphs on each of these characters, and how they've actually grown in was Sara didn't, and how Sara's death left room for them to grow as characters. I'm only talking about Laurel because you are focused on Laurel.

    I'm questioning whether you see the characters beyond their fighting capability. I mean, Laurel's role in the show isn't one that can be replaced by any fighter. Her history with all of the characters, especially Ollie is story gold that can be mined indefinitely. Lines like "I can't believe I was ever in love with you," or more importantly the conflict behind those lines carry weight that Katana just can't bear narratively. Ollie, Roy, even Thea are more than capable of picking up the action slack. Lack of vigilantes is not the challenge in having more fight scenes because they're are four combatants sitting around not fighting. Then to say that Laurel, who has yet to even assert herself or come into her own as a vigilante has gone as far as she can go is inconceivable. Ollie's conflict with Laurel over vigilanteeism has just started, whether they're together or not. Laurel hasn't even made a stance on killing one way or the other yet.

    Sara on the other hand was the same vigilante form the day she started to the day she died. She was not just 'hitting her stride,' it was the same stride the whole time. Her fighting skills didn't change, but more importantly, her depth as a character never grew, outside of a brief moment where they tried to retcon her into being some kind of heartless killer and having this internal conflict about it, that we never saw before or since.

    And Thea as the female combatant? Thea who's trained by Ollie's arch enemy and is about to get taken in by Nyssa? No, she definitely needs to be at cross purposes with Ollie via the League, because that makes for the best story. Having her take Sara's place in the field doesn't make for any character growth or conflict. Not to mention her entire character would have had nothing to do all season without Sara's death. Like you said, if they just need a female combatant and don't care about character growth, bring in Katana, but if they're actually trying to tell good stories, Thea needs to continue to be the combatant that Ollie can't control but is willing to do anything for. She's proved herself as a loose cannon, and Ollie would never train her or approve of her in the field anyway. Another example of bringing back a dead character for fanservice ends up putting Ollie out of character, because you have him training and fielding the person he wants to protect more than anyone in the world.

    I can do a paragraph just as big on any of the characters, going into even more detail about how Sara's death benefited their story, and thus the show overall, how her resurrection would hurt them, curtail their growth and reveal another way in which Sara's resurrection can put Ollie way out of character, just like Malcolm's did. You're very conscious about filling combatant roles but I don't think you've mentioned once the far more important character/emotional roles. Because of that, you don't realize you're asking for more pointless melodrama with Sara's resurrection. Yikes.

    The best they can do if they are bringing this character back for what amounts to fanservice (i.e. people who think Sara who never changed was just hitting her stride), is to do what they did with Agents of SHIELD. Put her in her own little corner of the universe. They could probably learn from AoS by not spending so much time on the dead end story of her resurrection and get into the crossover episodes that people will actually love. That is, less "Tahiti is a magical place" and more "HYDRA IS INSIDE SHIELD RITE NAO!!!!"
     
  5. Boy Scout Registered

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    Whether I agree with you or not, Cosmic, your posts are always fascinating reads.
     
  6. Arrowshieldfan Registered

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    I still don't think Sara is coming back in the present day.....you don't bring someone who dead I mean they could have brought tommy back too so there has to be something else going on
     
  7. Human Torch Registered

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    I don't think Sara being brought back would negate everything that happened before. Laurel is still the BC,Malcolm still used Thea against Ra's,etc.

    It's kinda like saying "Well,Spock's death in Wrath of Khan was pointless. It's back to business as usual a film & a half later."

    There's still a story to be told there before returning to the status quo.Things never happen without consequence.
     
  8. godisawesome Registered

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    Okay, my take on the possible (and considering the spinoff show news combined with an incriminating tweet from Guggenheim, probable) return of Sara in this story and series, and as to the method and manner of its effect on the season thus far:

    The biggest complaint I have against Sara's death from an objective standpoint is the inconsistencies and plot holes of Malcolm's plan combined with the abandonment of Sara's character arc (which arguably started last season in the final episodes). Others have already deconstructed Merlyn's plan. The thing about Sara's arc was that she had a definite and surprisingly well written and executed progression in this show from foolish and naive young girl to determined survivalist to apparently cold killer to atoner to someone trying to both atone fro their past and avoid backsliding into the easy path of being a killer. All of her appearances and actions were placed on a natural and understandable plot arc for the character, until the hiccup at the end of Season 2: her re-joining the LOA as part of a price for their help made sense, but they tried to play it as a good thing, when otherwise Nyssa and her lifestyle had been established as something Sara was willing to die to avoid. I was expecting, and still think, that coaching her re-joining as an attempt to reform Nyssa and the LOA's goals would have been the way to go with her. Unfortunately, her death was very abrupt, and only Ra's's one line about her not really being one of them has referenced this line of thought.

    Now, the reasoning for her death out of universe makes sense and does seem to have payed off; by removing her in such a dramatic fashion from the board, they opened up the opportunity for Laurel and Roy's advancement, and ostensibly provided a strong plot arc for the first half of the season. The former goal seems to have been a perfect success. The latter, though, does feel like an awful lot of padding and ultimately a nonsensical execution hurt the storyline. This isn't really unique; it's basically just a flip of Season 2's strengths and weaknesses being ultimately focused around Shado's death.

    Now, the reason why I think resurrecting her could play well, and the keys to doing so are these:

    1. Use her return to highlight how Laurel doesn't need to avenge a death to be Black Canary. Sara's death was the catalyst, but they did go out of their way to show that on a very real level, Laurel wants to be a vigilante for the sheer joy of helping people in Starling. It brings her motivation closer to Roy and Diggle's than Oliver's, and I think that would be an excellent follow up on her forgiveness of Thea.

    2. Execute her return closer to the style of Under The Red Hood in terms of its consequences, but don't copy them in Sara's reaction. I'd argue the animated adaptation of Judd Winick's story tackles the returning sidekick storyline better than the comic Winter Soldier or Red Hood storyline; it establishes that the consequences of the character's death still thrive after their return, instead of sidestepping them. But Sara going evil wouldn't work that well. Her being resurrected by Ra's as an ally against Merlyn and as a carrot to show Ollie what being the Demon's Head could do for him on the other hand....

    3. Use Lotz's strengths in the spinoff and use it to expand storylines rather than shrink them. Lotz and Cassidy have very different types of charisma and acting skills; Cassidy has defined her Laurel as the flawed, somewhat cynical, and righteously driven woman we know, while Lotz played Sara as a kind of female counterpart to Ollie, albeit one who seems a bit more warm and earnest. Giving Lotz a new identity and mission to run concurrent to the adventures of the rest of the team would work great; I still think her first mini-arc last year was tightly written and well acted, and combining her as the Arrow style character on a show featuring an Iron Man-esque Atom and the Flash's Firestorm, and you've got a strong base for a really diverse show. And I'd argue Lotz's more personable portrayal of Sara would blend better with team-ups than Laurel or Ollie.
     
  9. Human Torch Registered

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    I don't think there's any need for concern with Lotz taking up too much room on Arrow. It's pretty obvious Laurel is in her place there and the intention is to spin her off to the "team" show. Everyone wins.
     
  10. Mikelus Intellectualis

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    Agreed, but you know haters are going to hate. Laurel has been more interesting this season than Roy (who barely spoke in the first half) and Thea, who besides a couple of training sessions, didn't do that much but is finally getting more interesting in this last season stretch.

    Speaking of, Guggenheim said Sara's "return" won’t affect Laurel’s arc: http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/post/112893433449/can-we-see-katie-cassidy-do-the-salmon-ladder

    Maybe it will just be flashbacks afterall, who knows.

    But despite the producers saying someone will die, it seems some are not taking it seriously and think Roy or whoever it is will just go away for a while or something. This is what happens when death doesn't matter anymore in a story, it becomes a cheap gimmick like in the comics. If resurrection becomes possible in this universe, then what's the point of the next death? Then why not Tommy, Moira? Is just terrible storytelling. After everything Quentin, Dinah, Laurel and Oliver have been thru, thinking Sara was dead (the first time around), then she returns but to lose her again for good, to then tada, Sara is alive again thanks to magical resurrection! Is just awful, that's why the producers should do what's best for the story, not fan service.
     
  11. Human Torch Registered

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    The more I think of it,it just makes sense that Malcolm is who Amell was referring to. His storyline has clearly run it's course.
     
  12. Crimz Registered

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    Hopefully, he should never of come back.
     
  13. zenith16 Registered

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    I'm pretty much in the same boat. but I'd rather not see this cause trouble with the fan bases across the web which it will. some how I was hoping for it to be a flash back story with Sara there is a lot to play with before she came back to starling especially if done "Right" other wise unlike others I have no problem with her being back the same as you.


    but I can only speak for my self . I also don't want the story to be called meaning less Dr cosmic did bring up points they did develop Roy with what little writers of this show want bother with doing (yeah I'm hopin they make the live action titans show part of this universe some the same way they will super girl ) if this becomes further of a problem & as said with what they( the writers of this show Arrow ) did with the female "Manhunter" AKA Kate Spencer character who was a later BOP Member this strengthened this view.
     
  14. zenith16 Registered

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    With the part I bolded & Coloured red with Roy it'll just prove to me that the writers of the are weak with the cast number they have with other writers on other shows that weren't super hero related or were super hero shows that had the same number cast members or bigger like burn notice did with more capable writers cause they were able to do spot light time for the same number of their cast members. it was a small cast.

    it'll just further a visible weakness for me that the writers of this show arrow focus isn't where it should be & other writers have done better prior to this being on the air .

    They should seek those people out to help them instead of relying on death to distract us from this issue too when they hit a wall like this. So Roy better be just leaving til they have something for him or put him another show if other writers of others ca do it with same number they should be able too. kill him off .

    Or it will further what weakness's they have about not being as capable as those other shows writers . Especially with what I said about he female "Manhunter" AKA Kate Spencer character who was a later BOP Member that was killed in slades siege who was Laural's boss .

    which will be sad cause I don't want that to happen. So ship him off til they have something for him or have another show take him that he was related to as a founder .
     
    #964 zenith16, Mar 8, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
  15. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    I mentioned the fighting because Cassidy is horrible at it and simply can't do stunt fighting properly, it's pretty evident and also pretty important when you are a character who fights. However all this stuff you consider story gold is not gold to me at all, you are trying to make it like you are posting facts but it's merely your opinion, I am not saying that I am right or wrong, I am saying what I would like to see.

    Hence hitting her stride when suddenly they decided to send her back to the LOA and then kill her off, we never got a chance to see how she could change as they needed her out of the way to make Laurel Canary.

    I completely disagree here, Ollie and Thea have been at cross purposes from season 1 on, she is now a trained fighter but has proven she is not a killer. Ollie trying to hold her back at this point would be utterly dumb. Adding her to the team, having her and Roy in the field like Arrow's equivalent of Robin and Batgirl would be a lot of fun and would loosen up on every character needing to be in conflict all the damn time with each other, it's endless melodrama and the show could use a spot of fun, especially Thea who has been mostly at conflict with every aspect of her life for 3 seasons already.

    Or y'know it could stop Thea being guilt ridden and Laurel and Quentin having more Daddy and daughter melodrama, or Ollie finding another thing to carry around on his angstometer. You can write a paragraph on how it's affected characters this season, but IMO it has not been for the better for most of them.

    You keep using the term fan service as a put down, fans make or break shows like this, it's why you will find TWD, even with it's amazing numbers, reluctant to kill off Daryl or Michonne because you piss off the fans you start a downward spiral to the point some shows have had to find a way to bring characters back, this is what Arrow did, they were so stuck in the "Laurel is Canary in the comics so she must be in the show" mindset that they never stopped to ask whether the actress was a good fit to take up that aspect or whether she's be better as just a DA.
     
  16. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    You use that stupid line once more and I am going to infract you, I have had your card marked in this and The Flash section for weeks as a sneaky little troll who hits and runs, this is where it stops. I warned you in the Gotham thread and I am warning you here, I suggest you heed my warning and look at Dr. Cosmic's posts if you wish to see how to conduct an opinion based debate.
     
  17. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    Just read up on the links, the potential does indeed sound great, maybe with Team Arrow in the middle of a war between HIVE and ARGUS that is tearing Starling City apart.

    Damian Darhk would be a good role for David Anders, I know he is older than the characters listed age but he looks younger than he is and is a good foit for the type of character Darhk is described as.
     
  18. Nathan Registered

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    If only the producers would have followed the mantra of "do what's best for the story", then maybe season 3 wouldn't have been as much of a mess as it currently is. The issue isn't really that they killed Sara off, it's more how they did it, and the story lines that resulted from that. It's been nothing but convoluted nonsense and senseless drama.

    The whole thing with Malcolm murdering Sara, but using Thea to do it, and why exactly? So not only is Ra's angered because of his past shenanigangs, he also incurred Nyssa's wrath, who was a lot more motivated than her father, to catch Malcolm. That was some master plan right there.

    Then we have the whole issue of Laurel keeping Sara's death a secret. Not terrible at first, but it was drawn out so goddamn long to the point it was cruel to her father. Even going so far as to imitate her dead sister.

    Then there's the whole confrontation with Ra's, which was a result of Ollie trying to protect his sister, because Malcolm manipulated Thea into killing Sara, which gave us one of the most absurd fake outs, in the show's entire run, by having Ollie survive being run through with a sword, and kicked off a cliff. I still hope they will reveal that Ra's brought him back with the Lazarus Pit. Actually, no, leave it as a stupid fake out. I don't actually want to accept that Ra's was planning everything behind the scenes, in order to groom Oliver as the next Ra's Al Ghul. That might actually take the cake as the most moronic stuff that ever happened in the show's run. Oh, and the whole Ra's vs Ollie fight is even more hilarious, when he later admitted that Malcolm was only bluffing, and wouldn't actually endanger Thea by releasing the tape of her killing Sara.

    I used to get excited when they were telling us that things would get crazy in the next episode, and that things would happen that we never expected. But now it's like their way of saying "Look at the stuff we're going to pull out of our asses in the next Episode!".

    Seriously, if Sara is being brought back in the team up show, and it's at least half competently written, I might just drop Arrow and stick the new show and The Flash.
     
  19. godisawesome Registered

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    Y'know what would be a fun twist on Argus vs HIVE? Have both groups compromised and "defeated" by team Arrow, thus arranging for them to be restructured into the two sides of Checkmate. I mean, Waller really ain't an angel in this continuity, and all you'd have to do would be have a member of HIVE's leadership outside of Dhark actually be reasonable and mild in comparison. Maybe Maxwell Lord, written as an amalgamation of the cliched villain he was retconned into with the ambiguous good guy he was before.
     
  20. Arrowshieldfan Registered

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    There absolutely nothing wrong wtih season 3 it been brilliant......

    HIVE vs ARGUS? I could see Andy Diggle working for Waller undercover for info and she is indirectly responsible for his death maybe she leak the info to HIVE or something....too cold?
     
  21. Seb We are all Bat-People

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    This is entirely the opposite of what happens when death doesn't matter. People are rationalising an emotional farewell to mean anything except a character death because that would mean their character is gone. People are hoping that Roy (it tends to be Roy) is not in fact going to be killed off, but just put on a bus so that he might actually return.

    As for the tweet about someone dying, it could just be trolling and the person could be Maseo and Tatsu's kid dying, and I think most of us assumed that would happen anyway.
     
  22. Paradox1 Registered

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    Happy Birthday Matt Nable who turns 43 today.
     
  23. zenith16 Registered

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    Yeah I do expect the poor kid to die. I had that feeling for a while with the fact they barley talk about him present time , like he's not around or among the living . it's possible they may make Maseo die present time to further shake thing's up.& start his wife on her journey . Maybe even steal the soul take "Chinese sabre "sword (since this is how Dc is making the sword look of late) from Ras.
     
    #973 zenith16, Mar 8, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
  24. JC00 Registered

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    Anders played Cyrus Vanch. There would be a good amount of backlash from fans if they recycled an actor for a different part.
     
  25. Human Torch Registered

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    I'm still waiting for Vanch to return. They acted like he was gonna be "all that" and then did next to nothing with him.:shrug:
     
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