Arrow General Discussion Thread - - - - Part 18

Discussion in 'Arrow' started by Thread Manager, Feb 9, 2015.

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  1. herolee10 No More Miracles

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    I'd gladly drop this show if Felicity and Skye aka "Daisy" teamed up on a whole new spin-off/crossover show as the two female leads.lol
     
  2. luis4u Registered

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    Season 1 felicity yes.
     
  3. Deltron3030 Registered

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    Question about the DJ angle with Thea:

    The DJ was introduced pretty early on into the season. Does this actually mean Ra's was already after Thea and/or Arrow? I'm trying to remember the timeline of the video with Thea killing Sara and the introducing of the DJ working for LoA. It's a confusing angle. Why would the LoA be keeping tabs or be after Thea so early on in the season, unless Ra's has known all along about Thea being Sara's killer. Or, is it just simply the LoA was after Thea as a way to get to Merlyn?
     
  4. herolee10 No More Miracles

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    I believe that was the case. Nyssa revealed in "The Magician" that the League had already heard rumors about Malcolm having another child that was alive, but they weren't certain who it was until Oliver revealed to Nyssa that it was Thea.

    The DJ showed up soon afterwards if my memory serves me correct.
     
  5. Mikelus Intellectualis

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    Yeah, but Maseo dying is not going to make Colton Haynes tweet:

    It has to be a main character like Roy, Quentin or Malcolm, but we'll see I guess.
     
  6. Verick808 Registered

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    Giving Sara a role similar to Jason Todd's doesn't really work IMO. Sara and Ollie just don't have the relationship that Bruce and Jason did. She was never his ward or under his protection. Jason was a son to Bruce as well as his student and apprentice.he was Bruce's responsinility in a way Sara never was.

    Her death can't be blamed on him either. The last time he fought Malcolm he tried to kill him and at the time of Sara's death he still believed he had. She didn't die because of Ollie's moral code. A code which Ollie was prepared to toss in the mid-season finale so it doesn't have nearly the same significance to him as it did for Bruce. The only similarity is that Ollie didn't kill Malcolm. The story wouldn't have nearly the same impact.
    Now if Ollie saves Malcolm and then Malcolm kills Roy it would be a more impactful, only a little since by this time Sara will be back and everyone watching show would know better than to actually believe Roy died. Thea would actually be the ideal choice. After fighting alongside Ollie as Speedy for a while a dangerous enemy Oliver has refused to kill in the past, like Slade, could kill her. Since she's Ollie's little sister and someone he feels responsible for it would be closer to the Red Hood storyline. She could come back as Cheshire or something. Ideally I'd prefer them to let Batman keep that story though since I'm hoping we'll get Red Hood in the DCCU.
     
  7. Mikelus Intellectualis

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    Agreed, plus is not very creative to keep making Oliver Bat-Arrow, they have stole more than enough from the real deal, they need more Green Arrow villains they have not used yet, like Onomatopoeia and the real Constantine Drakon: http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Constantine_Drakon_(New_Earth)

    The Arrow version was a waste: http://arrow.wikia.com/wiki/Constantine_Drakon

    Thea is getting a mask (there's a photo of Willa Holland going thru the process), so she will become Speedy soon, maybe that's why they're killing Roy off, two young sidekicks is kind of redundant, but we'll see.
     
  8. Arach Knight Abstraction of Logic

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    The league had been hunting for Merlyn ever since the undertaking. Once evidence of his resurfacing became available, they put more focus on Starling City. As Merlyn himself said, the LOA could not locate his exact place in Starling. Putting a tail on Thea was the most logical choice, as she had the most consistent contact with Merlyn ever since Corto Maltese.
     
  9. Human Torch Registered

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    Batman can have Batgirl & Robin,I think Ollie can have Roy & Thea.
     
  10. Arrowshieldfan Registered

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    someone may die but it could be a "fake death" Young Justice style.......Oliver working with Thea/Roy will be interesting.....but Roy also use other weapon so it won't be the same as Thea who can also use a sword when needed....so basically three archers with secondary weapon for roy/Thea

    Here is some info

    http://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/2y5t4i/no_spoilers_guggenheim_no_to_batman_or_harley/

    it unreliable but someone post a summary of Marc addressing question about Arrow.......looks like Onomatopoeia is coming
     
    #985 Arrowshieldfan, Mar 9, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  11. Verick808 Registered

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    Not a surprise. Batman is something of an event character for DC. Superman too, if not as much. The only reason we have a Flash show is probably because DC felt there was more to gain by putting the character into mainstream media. The Flash went from a character people thought was useless to a popular television character. This could help the film when it's released a few years from now.
    Batman and Harley however are widely recognized and liked already so they lose nothing saving them for their DCCU. Instead, if you want a live action Harley, there's a 10 ticket DC wants you to buy. Alreast that's how much they cost where I live.
     
  12. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    Cassidy is pretty convincing at getting her butt kicked. Are you sure you're not conflating her character's inability to fight with the actress' stunt fighting?

    Regardless, it's not just that you don't consider deep conflict story gold, it's that what you would like to see is a combatant who has little to offer character-wise. I don't know if that's right or wrong either, but I know it leaves a big giant void on the show where character development is supposed to be.

    This is assumption. Now you're the one giving your opinion as fact, eh?

    And no, one act, in this case a weird happy return to the league is 'hitting one's stride.' It was the beginning of them not knowing what to do with Sara, trying to get her involved in the next year's storyline. Not sure they knew they were going to kill her yet, but they needed her out of the show for the show's sake.

    Ollie didn't even want to field Diggle when the man had a daughter, or Laurel when she wasn't on the same level with him (Thea isn't either). Ollie will do anything to protect his sister, even go fight Ra's Al Ghoul, but you're saying it would be dumb for him to try and protect her? That what Ollie would naturally do is send her after people with machine guns, his last living relative?

    But I get it, you don't want conflict, you just want the characters to have fun. They already have spots of fun, but that's not enough for you. You want happy times. I get it. I just think it makes for boring television, and is a bit silly when it comes to stories about ninjas and crime and evil secret organizations. Especially when you try to provide in-universe reasoning for something that is motivated mostly by personal whims.

    That's three characters it's been bad for, and we can continue to argue whether Laurel has come out better overall. (Imho, S3 Laurel >>>>>>>>>>> S2 Laurel, but you may disagree). But the rest of the characters, which is actually most of them, as we've discussed, have come out better.

    Sometimes I wish the showmakers would come and tell you not to put words in their mouths. You promote your vision of what happened or didn't happen in the writers room as though it were fact. I understand that my perspective: that conflict is what drives narrative, even though it is widely accepted, taught and demonstrated in storytelling, especially in television, I understand that it is still technically an opinion. However, you don't seem to have the same understanding for your view of what motivates the writing team of these shows, despite their statements that contradict your opinion. You still hold your opinion as fact.

    As for fanservice, another word with a negative connotation that underlines the problem is "pandering." When you pander, you give the fans what they ask for, which is not always something they'd actually enjoy, but you show them you are bereft of ideas, at the same time, you exclude or turn off potential new viewers with attempts to keep the fanbase you have. When a show is directed by fanservice, it slowly cannibalizes and shrinks it's audience. It's given up on trying bold new things to attract more and more people. It's given up on pushing things forward and is content to recycle beloved things to it's core fanbase that it knows the fanbase will like beause they've seen it before and liked it before.

    Shows like TWD, and Game of Thrones, and Breaking Bad, House of Cards, basically, any of the really great dramas on TV, they also get off on killing beloved characters. Yes, there are certain characters they are reluctant to kill off. Killing off Oliver on Arrow would be a mistake, imho, however they are also willing to kill favorites, if the story demands. Arrow showed that kind of boldness this season and if they hadn't simultaneously reneged on Malcolm's role in the series, we'd have had the best season yet. That's what you get by serving the fans in ways that require creativity, subvert their expectations and invite in new fans as opposed to just doing fanservice, which you will find being used sparingly in the best and most beloved shows.
     
  13. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    No, I'm talking about her movements in general int he action scenes.

    Put words in my mouth much? You keep referring to the fact I mentioned the fighting, you talk about character conflict gold but what it really is, is forced melodrama for a poor character IMO, not every good story is driven by characters constantly at conflict with the very people on their side either, which this show has done too much of this season.

    Haha! Ok then, well lets just say it would be pretty damn hard for Laurel to become Canary with Sara already as Canary wouldn't it? And her whole motivation to become Canary this season was Sara's death, don't exactly think I am stretching the sinews of logic here.

    Sending her off to the LOA was the first misstep.


    You talk about character development yet you basically want Ollie stuck in traction, this season has been about him realizing it is not just his fight and that he makes a lot of mistakes, he can't protect everyone. Thea is fully trained and headstrong, a matured Ollie should know the safest place is on his team where he can watch her back rather than trying to stop his adult sister doing exactly what she wants.

    Don't be a smart ass, it's bad move to make with me.

    Season 3 Laurel has been better than season 2 yes, don't think I said she hadn't.

    Sometimes I wish showrunners weren't so ****ing stupid to make errors that they then have to retcon because it's hurting their shows, but hey ho! You again accuse me of stating an opinion as fact yet they have stated their intention for Ollie and Laurel from the start and cited the comics, so forgive me for going off what they said as a fact since it came from them.

    As for conflict driving narrative, you have been on that with me from the start and yet I again say that conflict and melodrama are not the same thing, Ollie's been on the angstwagon for 3 seasons, Thea on the guilt and "Everyone lies to me " trip for 3 seasons, Laurel and her Daddy issues have been explored twice already and we are in the middle of round 3. How about creating some conflict with enemies and letting that drive the mystery and intrigue, instead of all the recycled in-fighting?
     
  14. Seb We are all Bat-People

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    @Dr Cosmic's wall of text (no need to waste space quoting it, it's right above this)

    It's always interesting to think about what makes TV interesting for different people. For example, with conflict being needed to drive story, and what exactly that conflict might entail. I can't comment on the shows you listed because everything about them screams 'depressing' to me, so I don't watch them (they seem like the kinds of shows that I would watch and feel like 'wow, that was amazing and I just want to curl up in a ball and never leave my house'). I can't quite figure out what engages me in a show, but I think a look at the non-comedies I watch gives a hint: I love supernatural stuff (though I've failed to watch Supernatural). I watch the Vampire Diaries and the Originals and Teen Wolf, I watch all the superhero shows on right now. And I also watch a few procedurals.

    The two are distinct in what they offer me, but in both cases they are things that clearly tell you why I sit on the 'bring back Sara' side.

    Supernatural shows often have lax rules about death. This season of Vampire Diaries (or the finale of the last one) brought a bunch of characters back from the dead and also spent 15 episodes building up one character's battle back to the land of the living. The Originals just had a major character die off to the promise from his sister that she would find a way to bring him back, no doubt her plot arc for the rest of the season if not longer.

    Procedurals tend to offer a different thing to me: The good guys always win. Usually within an episode, sometimes two and occasionally over a season long arc. And even if there is some big bad seemingly winning, the team is consistently defeating lesser foes and keeping my spirits high.

    I completely understand that these two things aren't what a lot of people want, but I think that the former genre (and the fact that they are a very CW thing) gives a strong indicator to how a large segment of the audience view their fiction. I honestly don't know how much of the audience is CW fans, how much is comics fans, and how much sits in another camp altogether, but when it comes to pleasing your audience (whether it be in a way they express a desire for, or if it's a complete surprise that none of them even considered they could like) the first two are both groups that are used to and seek out content in which death is largely meaningless. Whether this hurts the stories is debatable, but it seems to be something that people like (me amongst them).


    As for Malcolm, I don't think that it is his coming back that was the problem, but that he came back without a good story to tell. If he'd been an interesting villain/anti-hero, I doubt any of us would be complaining; it's that his whole arc is lacking in logic, consistency and emotion that makes us b**ch and moan. That's why I'm both hopeful and wary of a Sara resurrection. If they have a good story for her, yay. If they don't, they are ruining a character I loved because they suck at forward planning.
     
  15. Loki882 Registered

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    Yes, I love John Barrowman and found Malcolm to be a really effective villain in Season 1. And I never really believed that he was dead (if Deadshot can survive an arrow to the eye than Malcolm could survive being stabbed in the chest). So I had NO issue with him coming back, in theory. But it's clear now that the writers brought him back solely because both the character and actor are popular. But they didn't have a truly logical/plausible in-story reason for him to come back, nor a really interesting story to tell with him. And it really shows.

    If you compare S3 Malcolm to S1 Malcolm, he doesn't even feel remotely like the same character, and there's no good reason for that. It's the fact that I liked him so much back in S1 that makes the current bungling of him all the more frustrating.
     
  16. Seb We are all Bat-People

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    This is my main issue with this show: their conflict driven storytelling is dodgy as hell. We get some great stories (Slade vs. Ollie) some tedious ones (Slade's obsession with Shado) and some outright terrible ones (Laurel's substance abuse plotline). Generally, the 'conflict' tends to be caused by a death, whether of a central character or a named relation of the character (Shado for Slade, Rebecca for Malcolm) and we see little of anything else. Hell, for all that it annoys me, at least Ollie's angst at Ra's is driven by something done to him, not to someone he cares about.

    As an aside, relationship stuff is actually a solid conflict to work off, the problem is that it seems petty when characters in actual life and death struggles obsess over it.
     
  17. Loki882 Registered

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    Yes it CAN be, but you have to be very carefully about how you do it. And this show hasn't been. Not only does it mostly just come across as tedious and annoying, but they keep recycling the same beats over and over and over again. It's gotten old writers, do something different.
     
  18. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    Very well, to each his own.

    You said you wanted Katana, and to replace Laurel at that, as though Laurel being a combatant is her contribution. Perhaps we view their contributions to the show differently, but I didn't put words in your mouth.

    I do agree that every good story isn't driven by characters constantly at conflict with each other, but all my favorite stories, from comics to genre television are. There are exceptions. Star Trek TNG comes to mind as a show that often had everyone on the same side in lockstep with each other, but the best episodes, like with Picard as Locutus, or with Data's sentience on trial, those were driven by such conflicts.

    Isn't it funny how every attempt at character growth of Sara was a misstep? Both with the 'remorseless killer' and the 'going back to the LOA.' Sara was everything fans wanted from the moment she stepped on screen present day kicking butt in full Black Canary gear, first to wear a mask too, iirc. The only thing that would have made her more perfect if she'd happened to swing by Central City and get sonic blast powers. Any change to that, any growth or progression, would have to be a misstep. But yes, it would have been more challenging to make Laurel Canary with Sara in the mix, and impossible without ruining the perfect Sara.

    What aspect of my suggestions would put Ollie in traction? I don't get that conclusion.

    You make a good point, how Ollie chooses to be protective of his sister is flexible, but that's only assuming that what she wants to do is be a vigilante/fight crime, and she hasn't had a character arc that she's undergone as yet. Also, fully trained isn't how I would describe her, not after the fight with DJ Assassin.

    But an honest one. I feel like I understand your perspective, I have similar complaints about properties that I want to be uplifting/inspiring/hopeful/fun. I am dismissive of it here because Arrow has never really been that. I think back in earlier seasons the conflict-free zone was Ollie, Diggle and Felicity. There was some conflict there in Season 2, what with Deadshot and Felicity's unrequited crush, but mostly clear sailing. I do agree the show needs that somewhere, and the Trio haven't been that this season, and that's missed. I don't think the move to a more four color brand of emotional balance, but it seems like you - and I suspect many others, especially around here - disagree. It sounds like overcompensation to me, and as such, I'm a bit 'whatever' about it.

    You used her as an example of someone who has come out worse in Season 3.

    Why Sara Had to Die

    You sound like you're focusing on the bold, but there's a whole paragraph of reasoning there that still works without that bolded statement, thus, it is not dependent on it.

    Sara's death didn't hurt the show, it is not being retconned to help the show. She's being put on a different show, because people like the actress and character. Her death didn't hurt the show. Her resurrection will not help it, as we've discussed.

    The melodrama we all dislike is all a result of Malcolm being dominant in the story, which would have happened whether Sara had been alive or not. Just because Sara's death was the first thing you didn't like doesn't mean it is the cause of anything other than that moment you didn't like.

    Well, in short... because the enemies aren't in the middle of everyone's daily lives. This is part of why Malcolm made such a great villain the first time, why Deathstroke had to be a friend of Ollie's on the island and insert himself into Ollie's life in the present day, and part of why Ra's is such a weak villain right now. You can't have conflict with someone who's not there.

    As far as conflict vs melodrama... are you saying that everything outside of the fighting in Season 3 has been melodrama? The only melodrama I'm aware of has been Olicity and the "Thea videotape" storyline. Stuff like Roy dealing with this guilt is drama, but do you call that Melodrama? How about Laurel conflict with the team about her inclusion and experience? Diggle dealing with having a family? Does that count as melodrama to you? If so, then we just agree to disagree, as several of the conflicts within the heroes have been novel and interesting to me.
     
    #993 DrCosmic, Mar 9, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  19. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    On Malcolm: Exactly. He came back because people liked the character, not because people liked the story he was coming back to tell. That was the problem. If Sara is being brought back because there's a story that needs her, it'll be awesome, but no one is giving a great story and then saying "who could be better?" they're saying Bring Sara Back, and try this thing that someone else would be better for.

    But I do get your point. People want more happy, and I really did gather that from Hunter Rider's posts. It's not a rarity among the CW crowd, I agree. I would, however, point to The 100 as a big CW pleaser with a bit of a harder edge on death, because it is a show that's not about undead and magic, but rather science and tribalism, bringing people from the dead doesn't fit in as well there. Same issue with Arrow. What's related but more important, however, is that unlike Vampire Diaries or Supernatural, the writers don't plan for certain characters to come back. Handwaves aren't just bad because they're dumb, but because the following isn't planned out, and thus less likely to be quality and less likely to make sense in the context of everything that was planned out.

    And I think Arrow can get closer to the happier toned Green Arrow without becoming a Supernatural or supernatural. I also don't think throwing out death will help Arrow become lighter in tone, but that's another lengthy discussion, and my walls of text ability is running low.
     
  20. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    Again jumping to conclusions. I said Katana could pick up the action slack for Laurel on a BoP show as Cassidy is poor at that aspect, I didn't say I didn't want Katana to have character development.

    This quite frankly simply comes off like you didn't care for the character. Laurel as a character was utter dog**** in season 2, unbearably bad, yet they have picked her up a bit in season 3. You talk about writing and yet you can't see Sara could evolve had they not made the dumbass mistake of putting her back with the LOA. She even had the moment in the episode where she saved the little girl and she talked about the Canary saving her, and Laurel told her she could be a hero, there was room to progress from there but they reverted.

    The very fact you think Ollie should still be making the same mistakes he made with Diggle, Felicity and Laurel in just this very season? Surely he has to know by now he can't control people or what they do, so instead he should choose the logical path of helping them as opposed to wagging his finger at them and then being surprised that they go out and do what they want to do anyway since that's happened to him over and over, that is character stagnation as he's not learning ANYTHING from his errors.

    The DJ guy was a fully trained member of the LOA so it's hardly surprising Thea had trouble with him, so ok, maybe fully trained is too far, but at least highly trained enough to deal with the regular type of adversary the team face.

    Well it was a smart ass one and not an honest one, because you are wrong. The problem is IMO that you are all one side or the other, I think there can be balance but the show has lacked that this season.

    I am sure you can find the quote if I did say that, I think I said those around her have come out worse, nothing could be worse than season 2 Laurel, I think it's one thing everyone can agree on.

    I focused on the bold because the rest is fluffy ******** padding.

    Not every great villain needs to be directly connected, and there is a difference in the conflicts you cited than the conflict continuously going on between Team Arrow itself, which is forced and getting a bit repetitive.

    Again back to expanding on what I actually said and the fighting as some sort of stick to try and beat me over the head with. I think a lot of the Laurel character stuff is very melodramatic, not all of it but a lot of it is, and the Diggle side of things has barely had enough focus to really impact things, plus driving Felicity towards Palmer has been excruciating. I have liked the stuff with Ollie and Thea and Roy and then the Roy and Thea arc they started in the last ep, I'd say Roy has had the most benefit of anyone from the weekly Laurel show this season.
     
    #995 Hunter Rider, Mar 9, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  21. Seb We are all Bat-People

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    I'll give the story thing a shot. I think that it's hard to say what she should come back for without knowing the structure she would be in. For the spinoff, I think that many of us are assuming a Justice League type deal? If that's where it goes, we have two academic geniuses with Stein and Palmer, a more hands on engineer in Raymond (I'm making the assumption that Robbie Amell just needs to sign on a dotted line before they can announce him, too) and the three unknowns. Since the only likely veteran of the three is the Traveller, and then only if he's Rip Hunter rather than Booster Gold. That leaves a very open Bat-Family spot (Batman in the JLA, Nightwing and Robin in their various teams) of a tactician (which while she didn't have much opportunity to show it off, one would assume that it's a skill an assassin would learn) and stealth expert able to do the quiet things while the big guns make their noise.

    Generally a character will have baggage (which Sara has in spades) and a current conflict. With a villain whose expertise is planning, Cold, you have an enemy that would force Sara to step up her game in that area. With a group vs. group dynamic, it keeps it most interesting if you have crossover in enemies rather than a straight one for one thing going, so Cold would be a physical adversary for Firestorm. Add in a martial artist for Sara who can challenge one of the other characters in a different way and continue to fill out the villains roster that way.

    The show could start off with disparate pairings of or even single heroes with the villains similarly separate, and each episode each side makes gains and losses as they both build towards coming together as full teams, all the while building up relationships between the characters, both hero and villain.

    I don't know how interesting that would be to people, but that's my offering for a good story that she could play a solid part in.
     
  22. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    Exactly, Slade vs Ollie was pretty much on point even if the Shado aspect was a little forced, but the Mirakuru helped explain some of that heightened grief IMO. However it would be nice to see the team have some conflicts driven from the challenges they face together as opposed to it always being personal or them squabbling with each other. That's one of the things I am enjoying about The Flash. Barry, Cisco, Caitlin and Joe are all pulling together and not constantly doubting each other and trying to control each other.

    The problem with this shows relationship drama is they haven't got the guts to do a Castle with it, and instead write it for what they THINK teenage girls want.
     
  23. DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    I don't know what to say. I'm just amazed you view Laurel's contribution to the show as action-based at all.

    I appreciated her for what she was, nothing more. When she died I instantly saw the value and inevitability of it. Sara was already a hero, so no, I don't see how making her a hero would have evolved her character.

    That's traction? Okay.

    I'd agree with you if Thea wanted to be a vigilante. As is, there's a number of more logical paths between helping people get killed and wagging his finger and being surprised. Redirecting their interest, which is what he successfully did with Diggle and unknowingly with Felicity.

    I guess I'm just thinking of my sister. I'm not sending her to fight deadly villains because I know she can face 'most of them.' She'd have to convince me that she refuses to do anything but be a vigilante before I help her to die an early death.

    Who is the "Most" you're talking about here? Laurel isn't among them, even though you mention her?

    HR: Or y'know it could stop Thea being guilt ridden and Laurel and Quentin having more Daddy and daughter melodrama, or Ollie finding another thing to carry around on his angstometer. You can write a paragraph on how it's affected characters this season, but IMO it has not been for the better for most of them.

    They say this is what it is, you say it's all padding. Perhaps that's taking words out of their mouths instead of putting them in, though, so maybe you're right. My point is simply that you ignore what the showrunners say. Even with supporting examples.

    Sigh. I'm not trying to beat you over the head, but we're in different realities. I live in a place where the showrunners aren't brazen liars. I live in a world where killing Sara doesn't make Arrow 'the Laurel show.' I can't even unpack that. She has two storylines, a melodrama one (hiding the secret form Quentin) and a relatively great one (trying to become a vigilante the hard way). That's all. There's not "a lot of stuff" to be melodramatic about. The main plot is driven by Merlyn, who is the center of the show. If you'd called it the Merlyn show, since his character is more active than even Ollie at this point, maybe I could understand. The Olicity/Raylicity wouldn't have been any less excruciating with Sara's interaction. We both dislike that melodrama, you attributing it to Sara's death is...

    I love you man, but I don't think we can talk about this anymore. And you have good points too, but the conclusions you're coming to... it would take too long for us to come to a meeting of the minds on this one.
     
  24. Hunter Rider Ronin

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    I don't, you took my comment about Cassidy being poor at the action stuff and decided that was the only reason I have issues with her and season 3, it was merely one aspect I made a point of.

    Sara didn't see herself as a hero, she was struggling with who she was and what she was made into in Nanda Parbat.

    Yes, stuck in traction means not moving from the place you are in, which Ollie's character isn't if he keeps making the same mistakes.

    Yes but you are in reality, Ollie is in a world where he runs around of an evening dressed like Robin Hood and has a buddy that moves faster than the speed of light (forgive me if my nerdness if off point on how fast Flash is exactly). So in the world he exists where he already has a trained sister who I think WILL want to follow in her brothers footsteps by the end of the season, it makes way more sense for him to take her into his team than telling her no despite knowing she will go out on her own and do it anyway, it would truly mean he learned nothing from trying to dictate to Laurel about what she can do in this very season.


    Ollie, Felicity, Diggle, Quentin are not better off for all the Laurelness and Sara's death. As for my quote there, I believe that was more about not rehashing melodramatic stories they have already done and moving the shows forwards, not specifically saying all of season 3 Laurel has been bad, or indeed all of season 3.

    I do it because these are the same showrunners that retconned their own character botches within 2 eps this seasopn regarding Thea and Roy, resurrected Merlyn and are in the process of resurrecting Sara. So forgive me if I don't think they are this ultra trustworthy source of well planned out storytelling.

    It feels like you are beating me over the head with the action thing given how many times you have brought it up despite it being a totally innocent comment on Cassidy's poor stunt fighting work. Well above I gave my reasons why I don't trust the writers, if you do that is fine. Every character this season is reacting off Laurel, we even had 3 eps focused on her becoming Canary, they weren't even awful, I merely said I'd prefer on a spin-off show which is where this all started, I don't want her on Team Arrow or with Ollie, I'd prefer she was as far away from him as possible and if I can have her Sara, Nyssa and Katan as BoP then I'd very much like that, leaving Team Arrow to be Ollie, Digg, Felicity, Roy and Thea..

    :up: I think you are right, especially since it's not merely a meeting of the minds, there is also certain preferences we both clearly have that are never going to align. I have enjoyed the discussion though despite the odd rocky moment. ;)
     
  25. zenith16 Registered

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    yes this is the problem. they didn't flesh out the story they plotted with alot this season or didn't think it through the just threw out to launch . This is what the true problem is .
     
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