Arrow Arrow General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 26

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[HighFivingMF]

Sounds interesting. Hopefully the villain will be as good as Slade and Darhk.

I'd place my bets on this character being Brick had they not already used him.

 

[HighFivingMF]

For the new page.

Arrow‘s latest evil mastermind is heading to Star City by way of Baltimore.
TVLine has learned exclusively that the CW drama’s upcoming fifth season will introduce a new villain loosely inspired by Idris Elba’s Wire drug kingpin Stringer Bell.


The character, tentatively named “Anton Church,” is a ruthless crime lord who sets out to fill the sizable void left by 960Damien Darhk and H.I.V.E. The initial casting notice describes him as an “apex predator” who “cuts his way through the shadows” by taking down “the biggest threat first.” (Um, he’s looking at you, Ollie Q.)

While the role is being likened to Elba’s classic Wire baddie, the breakdown also references ex-Game of Thrones actor Jason Momoa as a physical prototype.

In a recent interview with our sister site Variety, star Stephen Amell said this of the show’s new Big Bad (who is slated to debut in the show’s Season 5 premiere this fall): “As far as I know, they don’t have superpowers. I’ll tell you that.”

As TVLine reported last month, Arrow is also casting series regular role of “James,” an “irrepressibly charming” contemporary of Oliver’s who is described as “a man on a mission” — out as he is to avenge a tragic, violent loss from his own, years-ago past.

http://tvline.com/2016/06/03/arrow-season-5-villain-cast-anton-church-spoilers/

 

[Primal Slayer]

I believe it was discussed a while ago but YahooUK just wrote an article on Arrows bad habit of fridging their women
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/arrow-the-disturbing-trend-of-fridging-female-080054890.html

 

[Loki882]

I think the larger problem is, their women usually don't get with any agency. Moira had some, and that was great, but most of the time the ladies are either offed unceremoniously, or they're played as helpless victims.

Whereas male characters much more frequently get to have cool/important deaths, or big "heroic sacrifices," or at least get to put up a decent fight first.

 

[Slade W]

That was a well written article and I agree with the main point. It was not agenda driven or biased, which you have to appreciate. I don't think that Moira or Waller's deaths themselves were badly handled, as both deaths made sense for the characters, but when you look at the sheer number of female characters deaths and how they are handled, then you see the problem.

I don't think that Guggenheim and co. hate women or anything and want to attack them through the show. I just think that they are not very creative and that they keep taking the easy option to cause pain for or to motivate the male characters and that is by killing a female that is close to them.

 

[regnak]

Guggenheim & Mericle only care about women named Smoak. All others are expendable.

 

[Gallops]

That was a well written article and I agree with the main point. It was not agenda driven or biased, which you have to appreciate. I don't think that Moira or Waller's deaths themselves were badly handled, as both deaths made sense for the characters, but when you look at the sheer number of female characters deaths and how they are handled, then you see the problem.

I don't think that Guggenheim and co. hate women or anything and want to attack them through the show, I just don't think that they are very creative and that they keep taking the easy option to cause pain for or to motivate the male characters and that is by killing a female that is close to them.

That's something they can do with Felicity. As much as it would anger fans who hate her, have her die heroically. It doesn't have to be her going down in a huge battle, but it could be something as simple as her protecting Diggle's daughter Sara, Oliver's son William, her mom or someone else that becomes close to them. She can essentially sacrifice herself, which does two things:

1. Kills off Felicity for the fans who can't stand her, and adds to Oliver's internal struggles having lost the love of his life (or another one of them).

2. Allows her to die in a way that doesn't make her seem helpless, weak or fragile. Not an accident or hit by a stray bullet. A death that is calculated. A death where someone is going to die, and she chooses to save someone else.

While I'm sure fans would love it and hate it at the same time because you'd get the "they had to make it about Felicity" it would add to Oliver's story and make his battle with the villain who killed her more personal.

 

[Loki882]

Yeah I don't think that the showrunners/writers are sexist of misogynistic or anything like that. I think that they're just not that creative when it comes to writing, and tend to go with the most predictable, easiest, and often laziest way to resolve plot-lines/create drama.

And if you want to create DRAAAMMAAA, then offing female characters in "tragic" ways to cause their (often male) co-stars pain/angst, and to motivate them, is a really quick and easy way to do it. It's more just sheer laziness/incompetence than sexism imo.

And like I said, it's usually the WAY that female characters tend to get killed off that bugs me the most.

As for the article, I do like that they point out that Moira's death WASN'T a "fridging." Because, it wasn't imo either.

 

[Paradox1]

I agree they are bad and lazy writers so I don't think they hate women. The way Shado died probably bugs me the most. She helped train Oliver but she goes out on her knees executed by some mercenaries? C'mon man!

 

[kenderos]

The whole shado or Sara thing never should have happened, Sara should have been swept off to sea and Shado and Ollie would end up in China together for Argus. Slade could have met sara and developed as much chemistry with her as he showed with Shado imo. And when he finds out shes alive and spurns him for Ollie he'd be extra mad.

Oh well, Id like for them to do something with the League next season where they split up into fractions lead by a different leader. Make it like the Outsiders from the Lemire GA comic.

Fist clan -Lady Shiva , aarow- Merlyn, Sword katana, etc. introduce Shiva, Richard Dragon, Vic Sage(Question), Cassie Caine?

I think the Question as a journalist, vigilante would fit right into Star City.

 

[Gallops]

I agree they are bad and lazy writers so I don't think they hate women. The way Shado died probably bugs me the most. She helped train Oliver but she goes out on her knees executed by some mercenaries? C'mon man!

See, I think the way she died was fine. There are actual US Soldiers who have died the same way so I can't knock that.

I think having Shado die the way she did, with Oliver essentially having to choose between her and Sara AND with Slade on the Mirakuru is what made the whole scenario work. Had Slade not have been on the Mirakuru, he probably wouldn't have gone after Oliver the way he did because the Mirakuru changed the way he thought and gave him the visions of Shado telling him to get revenge for her.

I think Shado and Moira's deaths were handled properly. Waller's was too. But with Sara dying as bait for Oliver to kill Ra's, Laurel dying as helpless as she was in that moment and Ruve dying and being Darkh's fuel to just end the world with him and his daughter included was just way too much.

Laurel's death should have been during an attempted fight with Darkh. Have her try to save the day but not be able to match him and after an epic beating, a beaten and bloodied Laurel is stabbed with an arrow by Darkh.

Hopefully, a meaningful male is killed in Season 5, if anyone major dies, to make up for this.

 

[Paradox1]

See, I think the way she died was fine. There are actual US Soldiers who have died the same way so I can't knock that.

I think having Shado die the way she did, with Oliver essentially having to choose between her and Sara AND with Slade on the Mirakuru is what made the whole scenario work. Had Slade not have been on the Mirakuru, he probably wouldn't have gone after Oliver the way he did because the Mirakuru changed the way he thought and gave him the visions of Shado telling him to get revenge for her.

I think Shado and Moira's deaths were handled properly. Waller's was too. But with Sara dying as bait for Oliver to kill Ra's, Laurel dying as helpless as she was in that moment and Ruve dying and being Darkh's fuel to just end the world with him and his daughter included was just way too much.

Laurel's death should have been during an attempted fight with Darkh. Have her try to save the day but not be able to match him and after an epic beating, a beaten and bloodied Laurel is stabbed with an arrow by Darkh.

Hopefully, a meaningful male is killed in Season 5, if anyone major dies, to make up for this.

It's a superhero show not a reality based crime drama like The Wire. Shado was a trained fighter, who with Slade took down Friars and his group of mercenaries. Yeah Oliver was there too but he was so useless at the time, they could of done it without him. The way she died combined with the fighter she was suggest to me at least she died hoping Oliver would choose her. It could of been handled better, she could of survived and come to Star City on her own or with Slade, Hive, or Ra's.

 

[Gallops]

It's a superhero show not a reality based crime drama like The Wire. Shado was a trained fighter, who with Slade took down Friars and his group of mercenaries. Yeah Oliver was there too but he was so useless at the time, they could of done it without him. The way she died combined with the fighter she was suggest to me at least she died hoping Oliver would choose her. It could of been handled better, she could of survived and come to Star City on her own or with Slade, Hive, or Ra's.

At the time though, there were no metahumans, no supernatural things, no "superheroes" really. It was based in what was a real world environment. Had it been Sara, Laurel or Thea who died like that NOW, that would be different. At that point, Oliver was training to be a fighter and was holding his own and helping the cause. They were surrounded by men with guns so they knew if one of them tried to fight, they'd all be dead anyway.

I get what you're saying, but at the time, the show was in a different place than it is now. What happened in that scene to me was better writing because it showed the internal struggle in Oliver knowing one of these women was going to die.

Plus, her dying over a Sara who had NO combat training showed that it didn't matter who was on the island, that anyone could die. They essentially took out the stronger person, making survival that much more different.

 

[Loki882]

It's the fact that she had NO agency whatsoever in that scene that people don't like. She's a complete damsel in that scenario, and her death isn't even about her, it's about the two men in her life. And given that she was built up to be this awesome fighter, it was even more disappointing. It was the most cliché/obvious/stereotypical/etc way to possibly kill her off, lame doesn't even begin to describe it.

It didn't work AT ALL for me, my only thoughts were "WOW, you made her a complete damsel in distress/fridging victim, and now Oliver and Slade's feud is all about a woman, how lame."

And it was the beginning of this trend of "the female characters are killed off to motivate the male ones angst/arcs, and they rarely get any agency in their own deaths." Sara, Laurel, Ruve Darhk, and so on. Whereas usually, the male ones DO get at least some agency, or to put up a fight at least, with their deaths.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

I think Shado and Moira's deaths were handled properly. Waller's was too. But with Sara dying as bait for Oliver to kill Ra's, Laurel dying as helpless as she was in that moment and Ruve dying and being Darkh's fuel to just end the world with him and his daughter included was just way too much.

To a certain extent I agree but TBH I can't figure another way for Ruve to die. Oliver wouldn't have killed her; she wasn't the threat Darhk was. I guess she could've survived and been thrown in prison. Anarky killing her did have a certain degree of irony, I guess, considering Darhk and Anarky's hatred for each other. Having that be Darhk's motivation for the final episode, though, yeah, I can see the problem.

 

[Loki882]

How about having another one of Team Arrow do it, by necessity? Or she dies as an unintended consequence of her and Darhk's plan (that'd be irony for you), or she just gets thrown in prison (freeing her up to potentially come back in the future).

Her being killed by a secondary villain who we hadn't seen in awhile, while being (yet again) a completely helpless victim/damsel who gets no agency, and her death coming off as a complete afterthought on the writer's part, was pretty much the worst way to go. And her death essentially just being there to fuel her hubby's man-pain/insanity, makes it seem all the worse to boot.

 

[Lencho01]

For the new page.

http://tvline.com/2016/06/03/arrow-season-5-villain-cast-anton-church-spoilers/

I don't think I would be making any comparisons to The Wire in any way for this show.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

How about having another one of Team Arrow do it, by necessity?

I just can't see how it could be a necessity; she's hardly a threat. Physically, at least.

 

[Loki882]

There a numerous ways to right that. She's doesn't have to be physically beating on someone in order to be a threat that needs being put down right then and there.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I was watching JL: Doom and it made me realize that DD was a lot more Vandal Savage then LoT Vandal Savage.

 

[Kar]

I bet Anton Church might be a Russian crime boss or something tied to Ollie's crime boss days. I would ha e preferred an established DC character but ah well. Maybe next season they're gonna bring it down and make it more crime based or something. I think the perfect villain for season 5 would be a TEAM of Big Bads instead of just one. Maybe like Anti-Team Arrow with a group of vigilantes/heroes.

 

[Loki882]

Perhaps going more street-level crime-based is a good idea at this point. After all, you cannot go much more "grand and epic" than Damian Darhk and his magic powers and "destroy the world with nukes" apocalyptic plot.

 

[Slade W]

I am really hoping that they go for street-level threats too. Hopefully if they keep it simple, there will be less of a chance of the season descending into pure silliness like the last two did.