Arrow Arrow season 4 episode 15 "Taken"

[SpideyVille]

Yeah, all I'm asking for a a balance between the two. Don't give us one while pissing on the other.

 

[mr. peasant]

Eh Ollie was a flawed/struggling hero till season 2,an inconsistent mess in season 3 and now a person legitimately trying to do the right thing currently. His character has consistency now that he lacked in the previous season.
It's Felicity who's all over the place for the last 2 seasons. This entire argument over her selfishness wouldn't even exist if that toxic romance was never the show's priority.
We shouldn't be debating who's right or wrong,we should be asking how and why Arrow went from fighting villains to save his city to fighting villains to save Olcity.
Okay Felicity feels hurt and you can argue for legitimate reasons,but why the heck are her feelings so important to be devoted so much of the narrative space? they aren't,no one cares aside from Tumblr.

I disagree with this. A good story is more than just a well-written, tightly paced sequence of events. In my opinion, a good story is also about engaging characters that we care and what to know more about; which would legitimise the show's effort to put in time on these relationships.

On the subject of the Olicity relationship, I would actually like to applaud the writers for having kept it so faithful to the two characters' personalities. Ever since the beginning, Oliver's nature has always been blood/family over friends (see his protectiveness of Thea and blind spot of his mother's actions) and being secretive. In contrast, Felicity is all about sharing and valuing friends over family. As such, for the relationship to hit a major stumbling block precisely due to Oliver's secretiveness and loyalty to the wishes of the mother of his son... it feels like a perfect way to emphasise their contrasting personalities - whether consciously and intentionally by the writers or not. It just seemed a lot more natural and "true" to the characters than say... Oliver suddenly deciding to break things off following the William incident because he could never safely start a family because of his vigilante activities and the danger it brings to those around him; which would've felt forced.

And just to throw my hat in the ring, I do feel that Felicity was being a little out of line to expect to have had input - or even involvement - in the decision. Rather than it being "Oliver's decision", it was a decision about William. As such, it's a decision for his parents and his parents alone. As an outsider in that particular relationship dynamic, Felicity would have had as (or even less) say than say... Thea.

And while one could argue that Oliver should have still turned to Felicity for advice and support, I'd argue that there are legitimate reasons for Oliver not to do that. At the end of the day, Felicity's ultimate loyalty on the issue would be to Oliver and his interests, as opposed to William's, by simple virtue of her being Oliver's fiance and having no real ties to William beyond through Oliver's lens. The same goes for Laurel and Thea; which was why neither were consulted as well. As such, Oliver would mos definitely not want that type of input seeing as how he wants to do what's best for his son even if it's at the expense of his personal happiness. The reason why he sought advice from Diggle and Vixen is because the two have genuine insight and experience on the matter.

 

[Mikelus]

So, your response to them trying to "please" and "appease" one minority of fans (ie the tumblr fans), is that they should try to "please" and "appease" another minority of fans (ie the comic reading portion of the fans)? I mean, now that I have pointed that out to you, I hope you can see how silly that is.

When they want to be faithful to the comics they are, that's why Starling is now Star City, Oliver is the Green Arrow, etc... so why stop there? They should know what they want, respecting the character's mythos is more important than the rest, time will tell how much they do.

 

[regnak]

So, your response to them trying to "please" and "appease" one minority of fans (ie the tumblr fans), is that they should try to "please" and "appease" another minority of fans (ie the comic reading portion of the fans)? I mean, now that I have pointed that out to you, I hope you can see how silly that is.

No it is not silly at all. Flash goes more comic booky and has much higher ratings. The MCU has built a movie juggernaut on pleasing the fans That is because doing it faithful to the books has a lot of mass market appeal. Even Fox might have realized that by now after the success of their most faithful adaptation in Deadpool.

 

[Slade W]

No it is not silly at all. Flash goes more comic booky and has much higher ratings. The MCU has built a movie juggernaut on pleasing the fans That is because doing it faithful to the books has a lot of mass market appeal. Even Fox might have realized that by now after the success of their most faithful adaptation in Deadpool.

Maybe you are right. I am not going to pretend I know how to get the best possible rating. There are more qualified people than me to do that. I reckon that making the best show possible would be better for getting rating than being accurate to the comics.

 

[superboy13]

Maybe you are right. I am not going to pretend I know how to get the best possible rating. There are more qualified people than me to do that. I reckon that making the best show possible would be better for getting rating than being accurate to the comics.

Pandering to the Tumblr crowd is definitely not "making the best show possible".

 

[Slade W]

Pandering to the Tumblr crowd is definitely not "making the best show possible".

I am not saying that they are making the best show possible. I think Felicity's screen time and importance on the show should be reduced. I do not think she is interesting enough or has enough depth to justify her big role on the show.

 

[SpideyVille]

Critical success doesn't necessarily translate to financial success, and that is what keeps people in business.

 

[JC00]

Well, you know Felicity will forgive him, Guggenheim & co are there to please the Tumblr crowd.

The guy posted a picture of them getting married before the episode just so tumblr wouldn't be out for blood after the episode.

the writing has been terrible the last two seasons, they don't care about the details anymore, even the fights suck now, a real shame.

Writing IMO has been fine this season when it doesn't involve anything Felicity (which extends to her mother). Thing is more than half the season has revolved around her.

The fights are ok when they are given time, but they aren't given time because that takes away from Felicity scenes.. For example James Bamford said the Oliver and Merlyn fight was much longer. But hey they got a 2 minute pointless Olicity scene at the end of the episode. SO YAY!!!

Back on Felicity, lets not forget how unfair she was in the original timeline (crossover) when she broke up with Oliver. He just discovered he had a son, he barely had enough time to digest the whole thing, but all she could think of was herself, very selfish from her part.

The sad thing about that is it was intended for her to come off as in the right and Oliver to come off as the bad guy for not telling her.

There was two episodes ago when she came rolling into Lance's office acting like a complete ***** demanding to know what he did to her mother and her reasoning was "because you're a man"

Then you had last episode where she pulls her selfish act again comes in whining to Oliver about how she had to "table her feelings" because his son got kidnapped and complaining about how she wasn't included in the decision Oliver and Samantha made to move William away.. Yes..One of her reasons for breaking it off with Oliver is because she wasn't included in the decision of Samantha and William moving away after he got kidnapped... A kid mind you that she had never met before...

But whatever, they will be a couple again to appease the crazies, unless the producers have the balls to break them up for good and be more faithful to the source material, maybe once they know when the show will end, who knows.

Showrunners with balls would have Felicity be the one in the grave. Instead these showrunnners point blank tell you she isn't in the grave (had to put the tumbler crowd at ease). Then put her in a wheel chair for 3 episodes and have a character that was written just to service Felicity's storyline create something that makes her walk again.

 

[JC00]

and before someone says she wasn't complaining about Oliver leaving her out of the decision about William moving away

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Lmao. Bye Felicia-ty

 

[Web-Head]

Everyone but Felicity understood where Oliver was coming from by not telling them. Thea even said that Felicity would understand, didn't she? Thea was cool with it, Diggle understood and Laurel's reaction was more warranted than Felicity's.

 

[DeadFan]

And while one could argue that Oliver should have still turned to Felicity for advice and support, I'd argue that there are legitimate reasons for Oliver not to do that. At the end of the day, Felicity's ultimate loyalty on the issue would be to Oliver and his interests, as opposed to William's, by simple virtue of her being Oliver's fiance and having no real ties to William beyond through Oliver's lens. The same goes for Laurel and Thea; which was why neither were consulted as well. As such, Oliver would mos definitely not want that type of input seeing as how he wants to do what's best for his son even if it's at the expense of his personal happiness. The reason why he sought advice from Diggle and Vixen is because the two have genuine insight and experience on the matter.

I think you make a very good point and that's an interesting way to think about it. It is in no way a "slam" on Felicity to say that it would be unrealistic to expect her to be able to put aside her feelings about Oliver in favor of William. She loves Oliver so of course she's going to look at it through that lens. This argument you make here IMO falls along the lines of why a judge, no matter how well-meaning and honorable, knows he has to excuse himself in case of potential conflict of interest situation.

I still think what she was most interested in was just "being there" for Oliver emotionally, rather than actually participating in the decision. But it is possible that she would have had a hard time not throwing her 2 cents in about the decision, and that might not have been helpful to Oliver emotionally, given her natural bias (which springs from a good place). And BTW, I'm not trying to defend her b/c I pretty much can't stand her -- she bores me and I would like her time to be reduced on the show. But that last scene just didn't strike me the same way it came across to so many others..

 

[Jedi Arrow]

Everyone but Felicity understood where Oliver was coming from by not telling them. Thea even said that Felicity would understand, didn't she? Thea was cool with it, Diggle understood and Laurel's reaction was more warranted than Felicity's.

Yeah. I find it interesting that they're showing all of Felicity's friends saying "she'll get it" and then...nope. And in last week's Flash, Barry asked Diggle why Felicity has not returned his calls. And then there's the Smoak building in LOT. It's almost like the show runners are working together to show her growing more distant from the people she loves...they all continue trying to support her, but she is not drawing close to them in the same way. I can't help but think maybe it's intentional and they're getting ready to have her devote her full attention to Palmer Tech (which will be renamed with her name).

 

[DeadFan]

Yeah. I find it interesting that they're showing all of Felicity's friends saying "she'll get it" and then...nope. And in last week's Flash, Barry asked Diggle why Felicity has not returned his calls. And then there's the Smoak building in LOT. It's almost like the show runners are working together to show her growing more distant from the people she loves...they all continue trying to support her, but she is not drawing close to them in the same way. I can't help but think maybe it's intentional and they're getting ready to have her devote her full attention to Palmer Tech (which will be renamed with her name).

I think that would be a good thing to give her a story apart from Olicity. Maybe she'd be more interesting. And going into that -- taking her job more seriously -- she would now have a backstory to kind of explain that at least. But I'd hope they'd be careful about how much time they gave her, especially if it didn't tie in closely to the current main Arrow storyline or else it would risk feeling kind of like Ray's CEO story arc felt (a bit isolated) and again, I wouldn't like it if it interfered with time that could be spent on better fight scenes, the main villain, and letting other characters have good arcs...

 

[Avenging Angel]

All in all, a decent episode. Hope the Olicity train gets cooled down now.

 

[Dark Raven]

I was thinking: what if on the Flash, when the man in the iron mask is revealed, we find out that it's Felicity? After all, "he" does appear to have blond hair. So the final big reveal of the season could still have Felicity popping up suddenly.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Broad shoulders though? Yeah it's probably Felicity.

 

[DoomGuy91]

and before someone says she wasn't complaining about Oliver leaving her out of the decision about William moving away

She is kind of a dick in this scene.

She has had secrets in her relationship with Oliver, such as working for the team between season 3 and 4.

While she would have been the best candidate for the grave, if not her death, they should have kept her in the wheelchair instead of curing her. If they were going to cure her, it should have not happened farther in the future.

I just wish her flashforward self in the Limo is just a hallucination from Oliver, and she is in the grave. That would be a twist in which I would love for this show to do.

 

[metaphysician]

I find it telling, and rather annoying, that so many people go with "Felicity sucks" rather than "The writers suck". Because while I totally agree that the end scene was unearned and terrible, I don't put the blame on the character.

Of course, I don't hold a grudge against her for not being the canon comic love interest/an original character/a woman, either.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well, EBR sucks as an actress as well. She can only do short little quirky scenes and witticisms. If you give her longer, more sustained scenes involving drama, she is terrible at it and makes you want to cringe everytime she tries to act. I can't stand any scene of hers which is of a more serious nature. She's pretty much like a one-trick pony who is trying to be a show horse but just doesn't have the chops for it.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I've always thought she brought the show down. Just an annoying screen presence imo.

I was hoping with Daredevil 'raising the bar' that the writers would take a look at their show before season 4 and drop the dead weight (Felicity, and several other side characters) to give the show new life, but instead they just double-downed on the tumblr fans. Makes sense I suppose, just not for me.

I'm really hoping the grave scene is a misdirect, and in addition to whoever's in that grave, that limo will blow up with only Oliver making it out alive.

 

[Dark Raven]

Even EBR's "humour" isn't that funny. In real life, she comes across as rather weird, especially with her offbeat bathtub segment. It's as if she has caught wind of fans on Tumblr who will eat up anything of hers, so she can just have a segment not doing much of anything but just being "herself" and almost trying to hard to be this quirky person.

But it just makes her unrelatable. She's not someone I would want to spend any time with. There are plenty of other actresses who are fun but seem more normal, and who are also better at the dramatic side than her. Melissa Benoist is one such actress who is fun but never weird in her interviews, and definitely much better at acting than EBR.

Imagine if EBR were playing Kara/ Supergirl instead, and had to do all the dramatic scenes.

 

[regnak]

I find it telling, and rather annoying, that so many people go with "Felicity sucks" rather than "The writers suck". Because while I totally agree that the end scene was unearned and terrible, I don't put the blame on the character.

Of course, I don't hold a grudge against her for not being the canon comic love interest/an original character/a woman, either.

Laurel got a lot worse than this back in season 2 and no one cried misogyny then. Despite the fact that multiple times I had to rebut the lie she cheated on Tommy(since he broke up with her) none of these who say the board hates women uttered a word about it then.

If you only defend your favorite woman it just doesn't ring true.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

I don't think EBR's a bad actress, and I do think it's the writers' fault for Felicity's attitudes, but the point of it is, this is how Felicity's acting in-universe. In-universe, her actions are very much her own and they're unfair and selfish. No one's blaming EBR for it, I don't think–she's not to blame–but when Felicity is the character who's acting like this, yeah, it's okay to dislike a character. Most of the time she's fine, it's just whenever she has to deal with something serious she falls apart because for some reason she wants Oliver to be this perfect angel who'll basically make her the center of his world–including having a say in William's fate.

EBR has shown that she can do more serious stuff before...in the first couple seasons the serious moments they gave her were fine. Giving Oliver pep talks? Good. Her fear when the earthquake device went off? Good. It's the material she's been given lately that's the problem. It's hard to make a character seem likeable, no matter how good your acting, when that character is being unreasonable and annoying. Again, I don't think anyone blames EBR for Felicity's character; that'd be ridiculous. But the fact is that her character has become very different from who she used to be and...it just isn't good.