Comics ASM #400..A classic destroyed?

[Dragon]

Let me use this as a hypothetical situation, if Spider-Man was kept as a teenager perpetually I have no doubt that Marvel would have ran out of stories to tell. Letting Aunt May die relects reality and the progression of a person's (Peter's here obviously) life and experiences. She was old and she died. That's life. Bringing her back was just cheaply reverting to the status quo. I know not everybody likes realism in comic books but I do. There's a reason why a vast majority of Silver Age comics are considered cheesy. I mean, do you really like seeing shallow characterizations?

Question: How was Peter's life changed by May's death? Once she was gone, she was replaced by Anna Watson as mother figure. So how did Peter actually "grow" from the experience. He's lost people he loved before, so it isn't as if some new lesson was learned.

 

[James"007"Bond]

There's a reason why a vast majority of Silver Age comics are considered cheesy. I mean, do you really like seeing shallow characterizations?

I disagree, its not so much that its cheesy, it leans more to you comparing a former age of existance to contemporary times where, there's been a dramatic and expansive evolution of style and culture. Back then, there were many times where instant classic stories were made but today, how many classic stories are written? Not many if any.
As for shallow characterizations, are you serious? The majority of spidey's greatest rogues for example were birthed during the silver age, standing the test of time, the same really cant be said for newer villains, how many of the latter can be considered to have profund characterizations that can ensure a future as a recurring villain? Not many.

 

[Dragon]

The fact that in Silverage, comic stories weren't padded out from 2 to 6 months- the fact that it didn't take an enitre page to speak a single sentence, doesn't reflect cheesiness. That's called good writing.

 

[The Joker]

The fact that in Silverage, comic stories weren't padded out from 2 to 6 months- the fact that it didn't take an enitre page to speak a single sentence, doesn't reflect cheesiness. That's called good writing.

Damn right

I'm re-reading thru Stan Lee's entire run on ASM at the moment,and the amount of dialogue Stan put on one page,especially in his days with Ditko,is fantastic.

It takes me a good 30-40 minutes to read thru one of Stan and Steve's comics.Good stuff.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Ah, modern padding...with Bendis as king.

 

[Dragon]

She is now... I know she's essential to me continuing to read... but that is not to diminish the importance of JJJ... He's foundational. I couldn't imagine the character without either one of them.

So. Let me be clear. Even if the writing and art is good, you wouldn't read Spidey comics if MJ wasn't in them?

 

[SpideyInATree]

When they revived Aunt May I stopped reading Spider-Man comics for years. I didn't pick up another Spidey comic until ASM # 46, in the middle of JMS' totem arc.

So, yes, ASM # 400 was a classic story that was destroyed by a very bad decision. And it wasn't even Quesada or JMS involved.

What was worse about it was that ASM # 400 didn't even have a chance to be a classic story. It wasn't all that long before they pulled they "Oh, it was an actor, by the way" BS.

I see there are some who thought Aunt May shouldn't have died. Well, considering the early days of Spider-Man...when Aunt May would have a heart attack at the drop of a pin....it's amazing that she lasted as long as she did.

While JMS writes her well and made her into a stronger character. It always bothers me seeing Aunt May in the stories because I feel she shouldn't even be there. They took an old woman, written by Stan Lee, who was old and feeble and they made her a little younger and healthier out of nowhere. Isn't that betraying what's true to the character?

 

[Dragon]

When they revived Aunt May I stopped reading Spider-Man comics for years. I didn't pick up another Spidey comic until ASM # 46, in the middle of JMS' totem arc.

So, yes, ASM # 400 was a classic story that was destroyed by a very bad decision. And it wasn't even Quesada or JMS involved.

What was worse about it was that ASM # 400 didn't even have a chance to be a classic story. It wasn't all that long before they pulled they "Oh, it was an actor, by the way" BS.

I see there are some who thought Aunt May shouldn't have died. Well, considering the early days of Spider-Man...when Aunt May would have a heart attack at the drop of a pin....it's amazing that she lasted as long as she did.

While JMS writes her well and made her into a stronger character. It always bothers me seeing Aunt May in the stories because I feel she shouldn't even be there. They took an old woman, written by Stan Lee, who was old and feeble and they made her a little younger and healthier out of nowhere. Isn't that betraying what's true to the character?

Why would you think that May's health, or the improvement of it would be a betrayal of her character? I think that Stan would be fine with eliminating a story telling gimmick that had long gone stale.

And honestly- what was "classic" about ASM #400? Simply that May died?

ASM #31-33 are classic because they took Spidey to his limit and showed how much inner strength he possessed.

ASM #39-40 are classic because they placed Spidey's life in jeopardy by revealing his identity to a supervillain. A scenario which would have future and tragic effect on his life.

ASM #90 was classic because it was the flipside to Amazing Fantasy #15. This time someone close to Spidey dies because he acted.

ASM #96-98 are classic because of the intertwining of a great superhero story with real-world social relevance.

ASM #121-122 are classic and I need not elaborate why.

How does ASM #400 fit in to that group? Again merely because a long established character died? In every other death of a loved one story there was more to it than merely their death. And it wasn't helped by injecting the very contrived and ridiculous revelation.

 

[The Joker]

Why would you think that May's health, or the improvement of it would be a betrayal of her character? I think that Stan would be fine with eliminating a story telling gimmick that had long gone stale.

And honestly- what was "classic" about ASM #400? Simply that May died?

ASM #31-33 are classic because they took Spidey to his limit and showed how much inner strength he possessed.

ASM #39-40 are classic because they placed Spidey's life in jeopardy by revealing his identity to a supervillain. A scenario which would have future and tragic effect on his life.

ASM #90 was classic because it was the flipside to Amazing Fantasy #15. This time someone close to Spidey dies because he acted.

ASM #96-98 are classic because of the intertwining of a great superhero story with real-world social relevance.

ASM #121-122 are classic and I need not elaborate why.

How does ASM #400 fit in to that group? Again merely because a long established character died? In every other death of a loved one story there was more to it than merely their death. And it wasn't helped by injecting the very contrived and ridiculous revelation.

Excellent points Dragon

Wasn't it May's heart that was the main problem of her weak health?? I know she suffered a heart attack in ASM#17,and she fainted from shock several times.

Btw I'd like to note that the classic stories you listed are all Ock and GG stories,reaffirming that Green Goblin is Peter Parker's greatest enemy,while Doctor Octopus is Spider-Man's greatest enemy

 

[ragingdemon155]

Why would you think that May's health, or the improvement of it would be a betrayal of her character? I think that Stan would be fine with eliminating a story telling gimmick that had long gone stale.

And honestly- what was "classic" about ASM #400? Simply that May died?

ASM #31-33 are classic because they took Spidey to his limit and showed how much inner strength he possessed.

ASM #39-40 are classic because they placed Spidey's life in jeopardy by revealing his identity to a supervillain. A scenario which would have future and tragic effect on his life.

ASM #90 was classic because it was the flipside to Amazing Fantasy #15. This time someone close to Spidey dies because he acted.

ASM #96-98 are classic because of the intertwining of a great superhero story with real-world social relevance.

ASM #121-122 are classic and I need not elaborate why.

How does ASM #400 fit in to that group? Again merely because a long established character died? In every other death of a loved one story there was more to it than merely their death. And it wasn't helped by injecting the very contrived and ridiculous revelation.

Personally one of the reasons was just how beautifully it was written. To me anyway. It wasn't just that she died but how it was handled. I loved it. I still wish I would have gotten the chance to read the story when it first came out.

 

[Norman Osborn]

reaffirming that Green Goblin is Peter Parker's greatest enemy,while Doctor Octopus is Spider-Man's greatest enemy

....

 

[Dragon]

Excellent points Dragon

Wasn't it May's heart that was the main problem of her weak health?? I know she suffered a heart attack in ASM#17,and she fainted from shock several times.

Btw I'd like to note that the classic stories you listed are all Ock and GG stories,reaffirming that Green Goblin is Peter Parker's greatest enemy,while Doctor Octopus is Spider-Man's greatest enemy

You know what Doc? I didn't even think of the fact that those stories were all either Ock or Goblin stories. But it certainly does affirm their greatness as villains- because we can also add ASM #53-56/ ASM 26 & 27 among others.

Certainly there are non Ock/Goblin classics such as #50-52 (Kingpin) 68-77 (Kingpin/Shocker/Silvermane/Lizard) but tis true, great villains make for classic arcs.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Why would you think that May's health, or the improvement of it would be a betrayal of her character? I think that Stan would be fine with eliminating a story telling gimmick that had long gone stale.

And honestly- what was "classic" about ASM #400? Simply that May died?

ASM #31-33 are classic because they took Spidey to his limit and showed how much inner strength he possessed.

ASM #39-40 are classic because they placed Spidey's life in jeopardy by revealing his identity to a supervillain. A scenario which would have future and tragic effect on his life.

ASM #90 was classic because it was the flipside to Amazing Fantasy #15. This time someone close to Spidey dies because he acted.

ASM #96-98 are classic because of the intertwining of a great superhero story with real-world social relevance.

ASM #121-122 are classic and I need not elaborate why.

How does ASM #400 fit in to that group? Again merely because a long established character died? In every other death of a loved one story there was more to it than merely their death. And it wasn't helped by injecting the very contrived and ridiculous revelation.

ASM # 400 fits into the group because Aunt May was Peter Parker's heart and soul through all the years, after Uncle Ben's death. Peter lived to do his best to help his Aunt May.

J.M. DeMatteis and Mark Bagley crafted one of the most beautiful Spider-Man stories of all time. It isn't because Aunt May just died that makes it classic it's the way it was written. The emotional impact that it left you with after you read it. If you didn't cry after closing the comic than you're a pretty cold human being. Or you just don't have tear ducts.

How Aunt May told Peter that she knew for a while that he was Spider-Man. It was such an emotional impact. And I dislike how people discredit it because it happened during the Clone Saga. Clone Saga or not. It was a beautifully told story and it was a great way for Aunt May to go.

Yet, Marvel, shortly down the road, spits on it before it even has a chance to make any kind of impact in the Spidey mythos.

As for the character change in Aunt May...well, I don't know too many elderly people who have health problems and then miracously they don't have any health problems and they suddenly become younger looking.

Once again, I understand the change and the strength added to the Aunt May character lately. But it's still a rather large change in a character who from Amazing Fantasy # 15 to Amazing Spider-Man # 400 was a frail old woman with heart problems and now suddenly she's a healthy younger woman.

Like I said, I understand the change and I enjoy it. Maybe you misunderstood me. But I can still have some dislike toward the fact that she shouldn't be alive and that ASM # 400 should be the classic issue it deserves to be.

 

[Norman Osborn]

And honestly- what was "classic" about ASM #400? Simply that May died?.

For me, and maybe I use the term classic too loosely, it was classic because of how well it was written...not for any long lasting effect it would have on the character Peter Parker.

"You shook me all night long" by AC/DC really did nothing to define the band...they were already entrenched in the "Hard Rock" Market and their real defining main stream acceptance/crossover never really began until "For those about to Rock"....it was only well after this release that older "Back In Black songs started to become vogue..

...but we certainly wouldn't dismiss the song as not being a classic.

 

[Dragon]

ASM # 400 fits into the group because Aunt May was Peter Parker's heart and soul through all the years, after Uncle Ben's death. Peter lived to do his best to help his Aunt May.

J.M. DeMatteis and Mark Bagley crafted one of the most beautiful Spider-Man stories of all time. It isn't because Aunt May just died that makes it classic it's the way it was written. The emotional impact that it left you with after you read it. If you didn't cry after closing the comic than you're a pretty cold human being. Or you just don't have tear ducts.

How Aunt May told Peter that she knew for a while that he was Spider-Man. It was such an emotional impact. And I dislike how people discredit it because it happened during the Clone Saga. Clone Saga or not. It was a beautifully told story and it was a great way for Aunt May to go.

Yet, Marvel, shortly down the road, spits on it before it even has a chance to make any kind of impact in the Spidey mythos.

As for the character change in Aunt May...well, I don't know too many elderly people who have health problems and then miracously they don't have any health problems and they suddenly become younger looking.

Once again, I understand the change and the strength added to the Aunt May character lately. But it's still a rather large change in a character who from Amazing Fantasy # 15 to Amazing Spider-Man # 400 was a frail old woman with heart problems and now suddenly she's a healthy younger woman.

Like I said, I understand the change and I enjoy it. Maybe you misunderstood me. But I can still have some dislike toward the fact that she shouldn't be alive and that ASM # 400 should be the classic issue it deserves to be.

I didn't cry, and I'm not cold and my tear ducts work just fine.

Like I said- one of the BIGGEST mistakes IMO was May revelaing that she knew Peter's secret. So now we have to figure May was nuts.

She heaped horrible venom at Spider-Man everytime he tried to save her- and even tried to shoot him. Make sense of that.

As far as drama it would have been so much stronger and REAL if Peter told her and they accepted each other. Becuase Peter had to feel hurt that he was giving his all for so many years and his heroic persona was rejected by his only mother-figure.

As for May's health, you'd be surprised. It's possible that her health issues had nothing to do with her age (Even young people have heart conditions). She could've simply gotten better- or maybe all of those treatments finally worked. Maybe a residual effect of Peter's blood tranfusion was that she did indeed grow stronger after the radiation in her blood was nullified.

 

[SpideyInATree]

I didn't cry, and I'm not cold and my tear ducts work just fine.

Like I said- one of the BIGGEST mistakes IMO was May revelaing that she knew Peter's secret. So now we have to figure May was nuts.

She heaped horrible venom at Spider-Man everytime he tried to save her- and even tried to shoot him. Make sense of that.

As far as drama it would have been so much stronger and REAL if Peter told her and they accepted each other. Becuase Peter had to feel hurt that he was giving his all for so many years and his heroic persona was rejected by his only mother-figure.

As for May's health, you'd be surprised. It's possible that her health issues had nothing to do with her age (Even young people have heart conditions). She could've simply gotten better- or maybe all of those treatments finally worked. Maybe a residual effect of Peter's blood tranfusion was that she did indeed grow stronger after the radiation in her blood was nullified.

Yeah, you're right about a few things. But I still like it and I still think it's one of the classic issues of Amazing Spider-Man. And I can't believe that you didn't cry. AND YOU CALL YOURSELF A SPIDER-MAN FAN!! YOU'RE NOT A REAL SPIDER-MAN FAN!!! A REAL FAN WOULD HAVE CRIED!!! Kidding.

It's possible Pete's blood helped her out. But there are huge character differences between the Aunt May pre # 400 and post revelation of her being alive. I do enjoy them and all. But it's still like a constant reminder of what Marvel did to ASM # 400.

Whether you think it's a classic issue or not, I feel it is. It's a beautiful story that I consider a classic and it sucks that Marvel pooped on it.

 

[KingOfDreams]

As for shallow characterizations, are you serious? The majority of spidey's greatest rogues for example were birthed during the silver age, standing the test of time, the same really cant be said for newer villains, how many of the latter can be considered to have profund characterizations that can ensure a future as a recurring villain? Not many.

I wrote before I thought with that one. Silver Age Spider-Man comics are great. I was using Silver Age more as a blanket term but it didn't really work. DC is the company that had more cheese in the Silver Age.

 

[stillanerd]

The Sandman is the greatest comic series ever written. It reads more like high literature than a comic book but it's not pretentious in any way. Gaiman really has a flair for the incorporation of existing mythology in his own mythology. Accurate history plays a role as well. The mix between the real and the surreal is very balanced and well written as well. And it's very very thorough and full of substance. No stone is left unturned. It's one of the most well-rounded comics I've ever read. And really, what I'm saying here doesn't exactly do it justice. You'll just have to read it to get the full effect.

Here are some reviews on the backs of the first two volumes...

"A singularly literate comic rife with subtext, humor, runaway archetypes and a healthy dose of perversity." - The San Francisco Examiner

"The Sandman is Neil Gaiman's own inventory of the books of Hell, personally rewritten with no small measure of ambition or cockiness." - L.A. Weekly

"Like Tolkien, George MacDonald, John Crowley or LeGuin, Gaiman knows the "maturity" of a fantasy is little more than a measure of it's depths...for all its distant shimmerings, Sandman has real substance. Its reveries seem strangely familiar-and not just because Morpheus and his carefree sister Death would fit right in on St. Mark's Place." - Village Voice Literary Supplement

Hmm, and your avatar has nothing to do with why you believe Neil Gaiman's Sandman series was one of the greatest comic book series ever written, right? Seriously, it deserved all the praise it recieved and was one of the most satisfying reads that I can remember (although I didn't care much for A Game of You).

To get back on topic, while I did like ASM #400 and even though I thought it was well written, in hindsight it probably shouldn't have been done in the first place. After all, Aunt May does serve as a reminder to Peter, epsecially now (although I'm not a big fan of her knowing Peter is Spider-Man now.)

 

[Rez]

It is my single favourite Spiderman comic of all time.

Like SIAT, when she was revived during that garbage leading into the reboot, I stopped buying the comics. Stopped buying my otherwise complete, extremely close to my heart collection of Spiderman comics.
Once JMS picked up writing duties, I read through it at the shops to see what it was all about, liked it, bought them, and began working on filling my several year hole. It was an abomination of a decision.

 

[Gregatron]

Greg, here's a thought; why don't you type one big post on all th' reasons why Spidey sucks because he started aging, and just copy and paste it into every thread you wanna post in. It'll save you a lotta time since all yer doin' is sayin' th' same **** OVER and OVER and OVER again!

Progression, realism and relatability IS Spidey's core; deal with it and get over it!

Sez you.


Consistency is victory.

 

[Gregatron]

The Sandman is the greatest comic series ever written. It reads more like high literature than a comic book but it's not pretentious in any way. Gaiman really has a flair for the incorporation of existing mythology in his own mythology. Accurate history plays a role as well. The mix between the real and the surreal is very balanced and well written as well. And it's very very thorough and full of substance. No stone is left unturned. It's one of the most well-rounded comics I've ever read. And really, what I'm saying here doesn't exactly do it justice. You'll just have to read it to get the full effect.

Here are some reviews on the backs of the first two volumes...

"A singularly literate comic rife with subtext, humor, runaway archetypes and a healthy dose of perversity." - The San Francisco Examiner

"The Sandman is Neil Gaiman's own inventory of the books of Hell, personally rewritten with no small measure of ambition or cockiness." - L.A. Weekly

"Like Tolkien, George MacDonald, John Crowley or LeGuin, Gaiman knows the "maturity" of a fantasy is little more than a measure of it's depths...for all its distant shimmerings, Sandman has real substance. Its reveries seem strangely familiar-and not just because Morpheus and his carefree sister Death would fit right in on St. Mark's Place." - Village Voice Literary Supplement

And there is nothing wrong with that.

But it was created to be like that.

Superhero comics were not. They have their own rules.

 

[Gregatron]

I didn't cry, and I'm not cold and my tear ducts work just fine.

Like I said- one of the BIGGEST mistakes IMO was May revelaing that she knew Peter's secret. So now we have to figure May was nuts.

She heaped horrible venom at Spider-Man everytime he tried to save her- and even tried to shoot him. Make sense of that.

As far as drama it would have been so much stronger and REAL if Peter told her and they accepted each other. Becuase Peter had to feel hurt that he was giving his all for so many years and his heroic persona was rejected by his only mother-figure.

As for May's health, you'd be surprised. It's possible that her health issues had nothing to do with her age (Even young people have heart conditions). She could've simply gotten better- or maybe all of those treatments finally worked. Maybe a residual effect of Peter's blood tranfusion was that she did indeed grow stronger after the radiation in her blood was nullified.

To be fair, Glenn Greenberg and other staffers at Marvel at the time felt that May figured Peter's secret out around ASM # 200.

 

[Gregatron]

Why would you think that May's health, or the improvement of it would be a betrayal of her character? I think that Stan would be fine with eliminating a story telling gimmick that had long gone stale.

And honestly- what was "classic" about ASM #400? Simply that May died?

ASM #31-33 are classic because they took Spidey to his limit and showed how much inner strength he possessed.

ASM #39-40 are classic because they placed Spidey's life in jeopardy by revealing his identity to a supervillain. A scenario which would have future and tragic effect on his life.

ASM #90 was classic because it was the flipside to Amazing Fantasy #15. This time someone close to Spidey dies because he acted.

ASM #96-98 are classic because of the intertwining of a great superhero story with real-world social relevance.

ASM #121-122 are classic and I need not elaborate why.

How does ASM #400 fit in to that group? Again merely because a long established character died? In every other death of a loved one story there was more to it than merely their death. And it wasn't helped by injecting the very contrived and ridiculous revelation.

May's death was another in a long line of stunts designed to attract sales in the dark period that was the 90s, and a result of all the aging fanboys whining and begging that she be killed off time and time again over the years. These would be the same fanboys who insist that Spider-Man age and change, and who give no regard to what makes him tick, and what vital core elements he must not be deprived of.

So we got a story full of cathartic realism and forced sentimentality.

 

[Gregatron]

Damn right

I'm re-reading thru Stan Lee's entire run on ASM at the moment,and the amount of dialogue Stan put on one page,especially in his days with Ditko,is fantastic.

It takes me a good 30-40 minutes to read thru one of Stan and Steve's comics.Good stuff.

Today, people are used to self-congratulatory "junk food" stories that take a mere five minutes to read, and which are praised as high art that is far superior to those "corny old stories".


Ugh.

 

[Gregatron]

Let me use this as a hypothetical situation, if Spider-Man was kept as a teenager perpetually I have no doubt that Marvel would have ran out of stories to tell. Letting Aunt May die relects reality and the progression of a person's (Peter's here obviously) life and experiences. She was old and she died. That's life. Bringing her back was just cheaply reverting to the status quo. I know not everybody likes realism in comic books but I do. There's a reason why a vast majority of Silver Age comics are considered cheesy. I mean, do you really like seeing shallow characterizations?

1. Comics are not real life, nor are superhero comics "realistic".

2. Back when comics were "cheesy", Amazing Spider-Man sold five times as many books per month as it does now.

3. If you think the characterizations back then were shallow, you're living on another planet. If anything, today's writers writing the characters as "Me, but with superpowers" mentality is far, far more "shallow" (And lazy. And stupid. And insulting.).