Comics ASM #400..A classic destroyed?

[Gregatron]

I have to agree with you here. Can you imagine them killing JJJ?

I can't believe how boneheaded they were to kill off most of Spidey's supporting cast... but the real stupidity is that they did it before/without replacing them with anyone else we could care about.

Gee, what wrong with killing everybody? It's realistic, isn't it? The characters have to grow and develop and die, don't they?

 

[Gregatron]

Why would you think that May's health, or the improvement of it would be a betrayal of her character? I think that Stan would be fine with eliminating a story telling gimmick that had long gone stale.

And honestly- what was "classic" about ASM #400? Simply that May died?

ASM #31-33 are classic because they took Spidey to his limit and showed how much inner strength he possessed.

ASM #39-40 are classic because they placed Spidey's life in jeopardy by revealing his identity to a supervillain. A scenario which would have future and tragic effect on his life.

ASM #90 was classic because it was the flipside to Amazing Fantasy #15. This time someone close to Spidey dies because he acted.

ASM #96-98 are classic because of the intertwining of a great superhero story with real-world social relevance.

ASM #121-122 are classic and I need not elaborate why.

How does ASM #400 fit in to that group? Again merely because a long established character died? In every other death of a loved one story there was more to it than merely their death. And it wasn't helped by injecting the very contrived and ridiculous revelation.

Those stories are classics because they all deal with Peter and his struggle through life, with the core themes of the character. With his determination and his devotion to becoming a responsible person--and the tragic consequences that can sometimes bring.

ASM # 400, on the other hand, deals with an external event that Peter has no control or influence over (May's revelation and subsequent death).

This has been an important and disturbing shift in Spider-Man over recent years. Now, Peter is always being acted upon by external forces, and seems like a bystander in his own books.

Whereas before (such as in the books you list above), nearly all of the events are direct results of Peter's actions or inactions.

Ben Parker died because Spider-Man chose not to act when he could have.

May Parker lived when Spider-Man summoned up the strength to free himself from tons of debris.

George Stacy died when Spider-Man failed to forsee the possible consequences of the modified web-fluid he used against Doctor Octopus.

Gwen Stacy died because Spider-Man tried to save her, but failed.


These and other stories are the result of conscious choices Peter made, as opposed to external forces acting upon his life (the machinations of the Jackal and Norman Osborn, mystical-Totem-destiny garbage, etc.).

 

[Gregatron]

Words of wisdom from a different board:



Crap like CIVIL WAR and IDENTITY CRISIS are born out of a common misunderstanding of how superhero comics work. A misunderstanding that has grown more pervasive as the audience has shrunk, and more "fans" have become "pros".
Basically it breaks into two parts. There are those who think the whole concept of superheroes is ridiculous, and therefore the gloves are off. Superman vs. the potato men from Venus. Not a problem. It's all just stupid ***** anyway. The other side of the coin is the "grim and gritty" approach, trying to shoehorn "realism" into the characters and the stories, and missing the point entirely. "So, Wonder Woman is raped, and. . . "

What's missing here is the third part -- the part that all the writers of the so-called Golden and Silver Ages understood so perfectly. The part that Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko turned into an empire. That's where the world of superheroes is, indeed, "the world outside your window" -- so wars happen as they really happen, events are celebrated as they are really celebrated -- but there are superheroes. "Realistically", having superheroes (and villains) in the world would make vast, unimaginable changes. But the readers need to world to be the world they know, so the fact that Superman, or the Fantastic Four would change the mix to the point of being unrecognizable is conveniently forgotten. Superman could have won WW2 singlehanded -- but in the real world he didn't, so in the comics he didn't. The events of September 11th would have been very different in a world with superheroes, but there are no superheroes in the real world, so ---- ah! See the problem?

Stan and Jack saluted the great adventure of Apollo 11, involving the FF "behind the scenes" without ever once feeling the need to point out that the FF had already been hailed as heroes for being the first to reach the Moon. There was no need to distort the real world event, or the heroes.

But -- back we go! -- Stan, Jack, Steve and all the rest were all about serving the characters and the stories, not about shouting "Hey! Look at me! I'm so COOOOOL!!!"

 

[LarryLegend]

Gee, what wrong with killing everybody? It's realistic, isn't it? The characters have to grow and develop and die, don't they?

LMAO

 

[Dragon]

Those stories are classics because they all deal with Peter and his struggle through life, with the core themes of the character. With his determination and his devotion to becoming a responsible person--and the tragic consequences that can sometimes bring.

ASM # 400, on the other hand, deals with an external event that Peter has no control or influence over (May's revelation and subsequent death).

This has been an important and disturbing shift in Spider-Man over recent years. Now, Peter is always being acted upon by external forces, and seems like a bystander in his own books.

Whereas before (such as in the books you list above), nearly all of the events are direct results of Peter's actions or inactions.

Ben Parker died because Spider-Man chose not to act when he could have.

May Parker lived when Spider-Man summoned up the strength to free himself from tons of debris.

George Stacy died when Spider-Man failed to forsee the possible consequences of the modified web-fluid he used against Doctor Octopus.

Gwen Stacy died because Spider-Man tried to save her, but failed.


These and other stories are the result of conscious choices Peter made, as opposed to external forces acting upon his life (the machinations of the Jackal and Norman Osborn, mystical-Totem-destiny garbage, etc.).

Exactly my point. The stories I mentioned are about Peter Parker. How he deals with life (And doesn't deal with it).

The problem with these event storylines is that they become not about Peter. As you say, he's just a bystander. With events like The Other, Sins Past, all the same. Circumstances are thrust upon him and he merely becomes swept up in the events rather than being proactive. In essence, Peter is becoming a non-entity in his own comics. And now he's been demoted in his own comics to side-kick.

 

[Gregatron]

Exactly my point. The stories I mentioned are about Peter Parker. How he deals with life (And doesn't deal with it).

The problem with these event storylines is that they become not about Peter. As you say, he's just a bystander. With events like The Other, Sins Past, all the same. Circumstances are thrust upon him and he merely becomes swept up in the events rather than being proactive. In essence, Peter is becoming a non-entity in his own comics. And now he's been demoted in his own comics to side-kick.

"How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?"


And boy, did Peter deal. Such wonderful and insightful agonizing that illuminated his character, which was once so well-defined.


Today...

"My aunt knows my secret? Okay, cool. No biggie. It's not like she's gonna drop dead from the shock of it, or anything. Why should I worry?"

"My dead girlfirend bonked my worst enemy and had his kids...and you KNEW the WHOLE time, Mary Jane? Okay, cool. I forgive you both. And hey, that duaghter of hers is a nice piece of ***. Mind if I have some of that?"

"I turned into a Spider-Monster and killed a guy? Okay, cool. New powers. New costume. That makes it all better."


(VOMITS)

 

[Won '08]

Ok. I got this issue when it first came out. I was either about to turn into a teenager or i had just turned into one and...in all honesty it made me weep.

I hated that Peter and Ben and MJ had lost May. I hated that she had died.

At that time..it was a milestone, and bringing her back did ruin issue four hundred.....but....at the same time.....Should number 400 have ever been printed? It was a great, touching story. It hurt. It seriously did.

But..did it happen at the right time?

Thats the question that should've been asked.

 

[RAMORE]

I read it recently, for the first time too. Trying to picture myself reading it back then... when it was written... and I'm pretty sure that I would have been mostly mad that they killed her in the first place. And I think I would have seen through it as a device to get Peter and MJ to move on... which I would have also been upset with. It's sucks to feel like you're being jerked around emotionally by the writers.

While I'm really glad to have Aunt May in the stories, I can understand why people are upset that they then came up with a really STUPID explaination to undo her death. First they made you cry, and then insulted your intelligence.

I'm glad I didn't go through the clone saga. And I'm glad that I can enjoy Aunt May... untainted, so to speak.

you really should read the clone saga...it was convulted and went on too long but it was great, and so was #400.

 

[Dragon]

To be fair, Glenn Greenberg and other staffers at Marvel at the time felt that May figured Peter's secret out around ASM # 200.

That doesn't really change anything though. I mean during the post ASM #200 period she stopped speaking to Peter because he quit school. Her reaction learning he's Spider-Man would have to be alot more intense. Her reaction would have been similar to the one presented in ASM vol. 2 #37.

 

[Gregatron]

That doesn't really change anything though. I mean during the post ASM #200 period she stopped speaking to Peter because he quit school. Her reaction learning he's Spider-Man would have to be alot more intense. Her reaction would have been similar to the one presented in ASM vol. 2 #37.

Absolutely.


But, of course, her real reaction to learning the truth would be having a heart attack and dying, not having a long, "cathartically realistic" talk with Peter.