Whiskey Tango
Avenger
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Much of what DrCosmic is saying here seems questionable.
.... you've got to be kidding me... it makes far less sense for Loki to suddenly have beef with the rest of the avengers.. and they all randomly unite. Just like it makes little to no sense in reality (where these films try to take place) for a man to be a WWII hero taking the nazi's head on with nothing more than a vibranium shield (in fact if you actually even cared to pay attention to the comics, Cap and Bucky using guns retcon happened well before the film)
This is a ridiculous statement. Great men who achieve great things don't lock themselves in a lab. There are plenty of people in Afghanistan at this moment who very well may win Nobel Prizes in the future. My son has a friend who is in ROTC, a chemistry major and he was one of the brightest kids in a HS graduating class of over 500.
I never said Reed should be in his 50's. 30-35 would be a good range for me.
Let me introduce you to Mario Alvarez II. He's been racing since he was 4 and there are many more like him on the AMA road-racing circuit.
http://www.younggunracer.com/
Again, you put words in my mouth and then say something that has nothing to do with what I posted. Of course Sue can have an occupation, but she shouldn't be a prodigy science genius. How realistic is that? The original Sue was a regular woman of her time and the new Sue should be a regular woman of her time. Not a super-genius.
Did you even read my post? I thought I was very clear that there were certain key elements of the characters that needed to be maintained but I never said they needed the same occupations and histories. I simply said their basic natures shouldn't be randomly and unnecessarily changed as they were in UFF.
Much of what DrCosmic is saying here seems questionable.
Hmm... that comment was sarcastic. I'm not sure if you're sarcasming my sarcasm or playing it straight. Regardless, Cap regularly using guns was Ultimates first, then, because that was a popular natural modernization, 616 adopted it
If it's really so ridiculous, where is your list of scientific prize winners with military careers? We're not talking about best of 5 hundred here, we're talking about best of 5 billion! People like Albert Einstein, Steven Hawking, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Tony Stark and Bruce Banner, these people are so intelligent that aspect dominates their lives. That's how modern life works. We're not talking about 'smart guys' we're talking about the smartest people on the planet, people that would put anyone on that list of the smartest people we've ever heard of to shame. That's not a guy who devotes years of his life to shooting guns at people. It would be absolutely counter to his life's trajectory, and no intelligent military would put such an asset into combat anyway.
So Johnny should not be a regular kid of his time, but he should be incredibly exceptional, a celebrity in his own right that just happens to be connected with the most incredible scientist on the planet? I don't think that makes for an organic story, giving Johnny his own separate 'origin' per se. Should Ben also be a famous pilot? And Sue a famous... whatever she is?
Here are the primary key characteristics that I feel the FF needs that UFF screwed up.
1. Ben and Reed need to have had a long, deep, meaningful friendship prior to their transformation. They didn't have that in UFF. They knew each other when they were 10 and then were reunited just prior to the accident (14 years later?).
Imagine you knew someone when you were 10 and then you met back up with them 14 years later. You wouldn't know each other at all.
2. Doom HAS to be Doom - not the AWFUL character from UFF. I can't even begin to describe all the things that were wrong with that character.
3. Galactus needs to be Galactus - not the swarm of UFF.
4. Sue and Johnny should be younger than Reed and Ben and not geniuses. Johnny should be street-smart and mechanically talented with a history of racing and other thrill-seeking activities while being nothing like Reed in the brains department. Sue should be intuitive and much better at dealing with people and public relations than Reed, but she's not a scientist.
5. Reed should be a veteran and strong leader and adventurer - not a geek who has been sheltered in a think-tank his whole life.
6. The incident leading to their powers should be a result of Reed pushing boundaries beyond what others think is safe. It should be a risk that he takes on because of his extreme curiosity and willingness to take risks in the interest of learning something.
As long as those elements are maintained, I'm okay with UFF influences for minor details, but I'm concerned that if they use UFF as a primary source rather then the 50 years of true source material we will get an FF that bears little resemblance to the real FF as we did in UFF.
Please question me, I've already been shown that 616 Stark was more or less a military contractor before Ultimates turned Stark Enterprises into Lockheed Martin. If there's something else wrong, let me know.
Wrong again as usual... Cap has been depicted with guns even in the 90s. "regularly or not".
You keep wanting to characterize how these characters should act and be by their origins (or using that as a basis for their example) ... When the origins are dated. They've been taking modern versions/characterization of the characters in the books and essentially retelling their origins with those characteristics in mind. The ultimate universe has had little influence over the 616. Regardless if what you may think (and Im sure you will try to argue in some feeble way)
30 seconds on Google turns up this: http://diverseeducation.com/article/57774/#
"Its a sad state of affairs for a country that educated about 10 million returning veterans after World War II including three U.S. presidents, three Supreme Court justices, 14 Nobel Prize winners and 24 Pulitzer Prize winners."
But I don't see why you are demanding such a high standard to prove an obvious concept when you are advocating UFF - a world in which children are taken from their parents who are paid so that those children can work on high tech devices. That scenario is completely unbelievable compared to my scenario which simply reflects real life.
No! I said nothing of the sort. I was just pointing out that kids and teenagers participate in motorsports. For every one that becomes a celebrity, there are 100's of thousands that will never do it for much more than the fun of it. Do you really not know kids who ride and work on dirt-bikes, mini-bikes, go-carts, dune buggies, ATV's etc.?
Ben should be a pilot. Pilots aren't typically 'famous'. Sue can be any number of things. Teacher, lawyer, doctor, magazine editor etc. etc. etc. She just shouldn't be a scientific genius prodigy. The Fantastic Four isn't a group of scientific genius prodigies.
Here is my post again. These are the relatively simple key points that I made and I meant what I said. I didn't have some hidden, unstated agenda in which what I really meant is that I wanted all the elements of the originals maintained. As I have said over and over and over again, some updates are fine and necessary, but the updates that were in UFF changed the basic nature of the characters. That's not updating, that's re-inventing and there's no reason to reinvent simple characters that have timeless characteristics that audiences can relate to.
Nah it was the thing about teenagers not being into cars or bikes which I don't feel was very accurate, at least in the States gearheads have always been a thing even before everybody started bolting their dick head jumbo jet spoilers onto their tiny Matchbox clown cars.
And the bit about scientists not working in the field but Mr. Lumpkin fielded that one also.
otherwise good convo
Plus Iron-Man's origin is a direct update from 616 (A weapons maker, heart injured in a war zone, held captive etc), as was his armour.
His Ultimate origin was so bloody awful (his whole body was basically one big brain cell, blue protective skin as kid, growing back limbs etc) that the last I heard they ret-conned that crap out of those books continuity.
His ultimate armour when IM was being made I think was still the clunky Hitch designed one (not nearly as good as the 616 Adi Granov one the film took it's cues from) Even the Mark 1 armour was remarkably faithful to IM's first 616 suit.
Funny how Marvel Studios most successful solo character so far is the one that's followed it's 616 books the closest...