Avengers 1-4 vs The Dark Knight Trilogy

Discussion in 'Misc. Comics Films' started by MessiahDecoy123, May 16, 2020.

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Avengers 1-4 or The Dark Knight Trilogy

  1. Avengers 1-4

    44.1%
  2. The Dark Knight Trilogy

    55.9%
  1. Adhesive Boy Registered

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    I didn't say that was what would cause civilians to react, it's the fact that he drove through the entrance of a bank that's an obvious case of a very dangerous crime. The cops should definitely be on the look for anything unusual since they will expect bank robbers to try to escape. The way some of you act around this it must feel like magic when police actually catches criminals in the real world.

    Yes, because that's not something a cop or two can do unnoticed, it's something that would be apparent to tons of people, especially the hospital matter.

    I don't assume that. Why do you assume that I do when I've written nothing about that?

    There are many more cases, and that's not questionable, it's something that just never happens. Even the comic, which I haven't read and don't know the tone of, has the Joker handcuffed. Not to the table as is normal procedure though. The police will always make sure that their own are safe and that definitely does not include locking someone in a room with an unrestrained and dangerous prisoner. That he's armed is a real BS argument since they of course intend to bring justice to the criminal, not force someone to shoot him.

    But keep piling on guys, I'm sure it will help the more people insert themselves in the conversation.
     
  2. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    The Cops arrived after he had exited the building and joined the procession of school buses. All that the Cops are going to see when they arrive after the fact is a big hole in the wall. They will obviously piece everything together afterward thanks to eyewitness testimony that it was a school bus, but at the time they were just responding to a robbery. Late reaction, too, as we are told that the bank didn't dial out to 911, but a private number because its a mob bank, but Joker's men intercepted it anyway.

    Again what makes you think it was just one or two Cops involved in this whole process? I listed examples of showing a couple of Cops involved in aiding the Joker's plans. They are just examples the movie shows in the very clear message that the city is rife with corruption to the point where they even have a character say Bruce Wayne's penthouse is the only safe place in the city. Even that wasn't a guarantee since Joker managed to get in there, too. What is so hard to envision over a period of days explosives were smuggled in and hidden around the hospital, in air vents, backs of closets, hidden in boxes in supply rooms etc. You're buying into a world of Batman, but explosives being smuggled into a hospital unnoticed, that's too much to accept.

    I do not agree, there is not many more cases, and even this one at best is questionable because yes he should have been cuffed again after Batman was done with him, but given he had just had the snot beaten out of him, was sitting on the floor across the room, and Stephens was likely armed. These Police officers were already breaking protocol by allowing a masked vigilante in to interrogate him in the first place. Protocol went out the window. Stephens real mistake here was allowing himself to be baited by the Joker, but again Joker is so good at getting under people's skin that its totally believable, IMO. Those panels are from a Batman comic. What tone are you expecting it to have? Its Batman. If you want the name of the title its from Gotham Central. The one that follows GCPD characters like Bullock, Montoya, Crispus Allen, Marcus Driver etc. Is that a more grounded title to you because its main characters are Cops and not a man in Bat suit? Does that make it look more unbelievable for you that the Joker was able to rile this Cop up into attacking him, to allow him to attack and take down this Cop left all alone in the room with him, escape his cuffs, walk outside and shoot down every Cop in the next room?

    I don't know why you are getting so abrasive about "piling on". You're posting on a public forum. We're talking about a movie. Are you actually irritated just because a few people have responded in disagreement? Nobody's forcing you to reply to any of this if that bothers you so much. Its nothing personal here.
     
    #327 The Joker, Jul 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
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  3. Dede Registered

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    Both bane and jokers plans can be nitpicked at but both I think survive that by offerings important details such as Gotham is so corrupt that they can get away with all the things they did. Same with ra’s in Batman begins. They infiltrated everything in the city.
     
  4. Adhesive Boy Registered

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    There's nothing "just" about someone robbing a big bank. That's a very serious crime that risks having armed people trying to get away and the first to arrive won't be the only ones coming there, plus there was a ton of witnesses (although they clearly didn't care at all given what we're shown, which is laughable). Police work isn't magic, they actually do think about escaping criminals and they are educated on that very issue. The funny part is that we should believe that the police force we never really see anything good from is capable of weeding out organized crime entirely.

    Because the amounts are absolutely enormous and lots of normal people are constantly working around where that would have had to happen. The world of Batman is deliberately made as gritty and realistic as possible and the tone always changes the expectations.

    Again, it makes no difference is Stephens is armed since it's not just about his protection, they wouldn't do anything to give the Joker the chance to even do something like commit suicide by cop. It's just another case of where they try to make the Joker intelligent but all it does is make people around him illogical and stupid. What the Joker says to him is irrelevant since the stupidity of the scene has already happened. I'm not commenting on comics I haven't read, I'm commenting on the tone of the movie and what I see.

    Even Batman becomes dumb at times, like when he saved Rachel from falling to her death. Since the fall oddly enough didn't hurt them that much, let alone kill them, it's very odd that he just forgets that the Joker is up there still threatening people. There is no simple way out of that building so an excellent chance of capturing him, but no one seems to care to try.

    I'm not annoyed by it, I'm amused.
     
  5. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    I never said the crime in itself was not serious, I said the Police were just responding to a bank robbery, which is rarely if ever carried out in the style the Joker did it by making all the civilians hold live grenades, murdering his own men on the job, then blending into traffic in a procession of school buses. That is twisted, grandiose, and one of the last types of scenarios you envision bank robberies going down. Just like how bank robbers tend to hide their faces, the Joker can't resist showing his face to the cameras before he leaves. He doesn't carry out crimes the way regular criminals do. The Police arrived after the fact. All they see is dead suspects and a big hole in the wall. That's not magic. That's simple logic. Coupled with the fact they have a bank full of innocents holding onto live grenades. They still have lives in danger even after the suspect has fled.

    The world of Batman is asking you to buy that a millionaire can dress as a bat, driving around in grandiose vehicles throughout the city on a nightly basis, have his own batsignal that law enforcement will turn a blind eye to on the roof of their own headquarters, that he was trained by a secret ninja organization that's been destroying civilizations for centuries to keep balance in the world etc. You've already bought into all that pure unrealistic fantasy. Otherwise you wouldn't be watching Batman. And you're saying that by comparison the Joker, in a city rife with corruption that its infiltrated everywhere, smuggling explosives into a hospital over a period of days is breaking the realm of what is plausible in this world. No offense, but that is just silly.

    It makes all the difference if he's armed. An armed Police officer can subdue a suspect and protect themselves. The Joker was sitting across the room. The scenario was not in any way portrayed that Joker could have stood up and walked over to Stephens to do anything to him without Stephens being able to subdue him in advance. The only fault of Stephens was allowing himself to be goaded by the Joker, but again the Joker is a master of getting under people's skin. The audience buys it. That's why you don't see the movie get hammered for it. It works. The comic in question follows the same tone. Joker is arrested, he is being interrogated, he goads the Police officer who is alone with him, attacks him, and escapes. He even manages to kill an entire room of armed Cops outside just by grabbing one Cops gun, as you can see for yourself. Its as "grounded" a Batman tale as you can get. Look up the title if you want further proof.

    No Batman likely jumped to the same conclusion most people would. Joker's men got taken out, Batman's shown up, why would he think Joker is still up there threatening people by himself after he tossed Rachel out the window. He obviously threw Rachel out the window to provide a distraction for Batman so he could escape.

    You're not talking like you're amused, you're acting snarky by telling people to pile on because they're treating it like a sensitive subject. Its not sensitive. Nobody's gotten personal or agitated. Just because you have people disagreeing with you doesn't make it sensitive.
     
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  6. Adhesive Boy Registered

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    So it's not logical for police to approach a bank robbery with the intent of spotting and stopping robbers from getting away? They just arrive, walk around and maybe take testimony from people that saw it but didn't react to it whatsoever? Gotcha.

    Batman Begins had a more fitting tone than TDK, so that doesn't help. Daredevil had immortal ninjas in it as well, yet it handles the chosen tone far better since they avoid plot armor as the writers are smart enough to write characters acting intelligently. And given the extent you go to in order to explain why cops shouldn't do the basics of their jobs I'm very fine with you thinking I'm silly.

    The only apparent way of escape is going down the building again since they can't fly. The bottom of the building just happens to be where Batman is now and he most definitely took a quicker route down. But apparently he's not even going to try to look for them. Just how The Joker tends to avoid capture.

    I mentioned it just as someone made a very blatant misrepresentation of a quote of mine to make it look less reasonable. I would assume either deliberately or not thinking it through. Both which certainly play into the sensitive part. I'm not just deriving that from the current discussion either, I've seen plenty of agitated debate in the past as well.
     
  7. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Well of course its logical, but what are the Police going to see. You can only go by the facts of the situation. They arrived after Joker had already left in the procession of school buses. When they get to the bank all they will see is a bunch of dead suspects, civilians in grave danger holding live grenades, and a big hole in the wall. You think they're going to start taking testimony when civilians are holding live grenades?

    More fitting tone according to whom? If the tone was as off as you claim the movie would have been hammered for it. The tone was in line with Begins. Same exact world set up in Begins. Same characters in the same set up. All the furniture was there that was laid out in the first movie. There was no shift in tone. The writing is just as tight. We buy Ra's Al Ghul is able to poison Gotham's entire water supply using Arkham Asylum as a base without arousing any suspicion, arrange a mass Arkham breakout, and rig the Gotham train to house the microwave emitter all at once because Gotham is so corrupt he's infiltrated every level of its infrastructure. But you can't wrap your head around Joker using that same level of corruption to smuggle some bombs into a hospital. Its an illogical complaint. I'll never understand it.

    How do you know the only way is to go down? Or that he never even attempted to find Joker after the fact? You don't. You're just making assumptions. Just like you illogically assumed Joker just stayed up there and continued to threaten the guests. You go on the basis because the movie didn't show it that it never happened. These were not things we needed to see.

    So because someone misinterpreted what you're saying, we're all piling on you? I've seen people get agitated in the past, too. I've also seen Marvel fans get agitated when their movies get critiqued. But I don't judge everyone by past experience. You judge people by how they are behaving in the current discussion. Not past ones. Everyone here has been perfectly civil.
     
    #332 The Joker, Jul 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  8. Adhesive Boy Registered

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    He's not much more than 10 meters away from where he started when he meets the first four police cars. They can still easily see that bus when they see the hole in the bank so the connection is beyond obvious and it's not exactly hard to round up school buses in busy megacity traffic. You'd need one car to go after the bus, which could be another after they naturally radio in what they saw, and the rest could check the bank. There is no actual thought put into this scene, which is why everyone in traffic and on foot pay no attention to the robbery whatsoever. That really is the fundamental part since if you make people around the situation act rationally then that affects everything else in turn.

    To me, obviously. We're having the discussion because you have an issue with me thinking that there are dumb things in the movie. I don't think the tones were the same at all but I doubt there is much point explaining the logic of my complaint given your views on police work. I just don't think we share a view of what's logical.

    Him trying to catch the Joker would be both important and exciting so it is illogical to assume that they just didn't show that without even making a reference to it. The script clearly just wanted something to happen and then move onto something else and didn't bother to clean up the former scene. Nowhere did I say that I assume that the Joker stayed around. Quite the contrary I said that there was no shorter way down than the one Batman took, so they would need to get past him. So the only illogical thing here was your assumption based of what I said.

    The piling on was because I had one person asking me something and after that I've answered four other people on the same thing. As usual more than I've experienced on any other movie criticism I've made. I said that the sensitive aspect played into someone clearly misrepresenting my statement by quoting half the sentence. No need to make straw men as I didn't say anyone wasn't being civil.
     
  9. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Again the Police arrived after he had left. Afterward. Not during. He was in a procession of school buses. Why would the Police make a connection between a school bus and the robbery? Especially when it wasn't one solitary school bus driving alone. The hole could have been made using explosives, any kind of large vehicle like a truck or another kind of bus etc. Why would they jump to the conclusion it was a school bus? You're also blatantly ignoring that when they arrived, they would have to deal with the imminent threat of a bank full of civilians holding live grenades. This is all logic. Rationality. The Police will always first and foremost act to save lives.

    No you didn't. You accused Batman of being dumb because and I quote "it's very odd that he just forgets that the Joker is up there still threatening people". Your words. Now you say you never assumed he would stay around, and that it would be important and exciting to see him try and catch Joker. Why would it be important or exciting to show him go back in there and find Joker has escaped already? That's not exciting or important. We didn't need to see that. We already can put that together for ourselves.

    Strawman? You just said in your previous post that you've seen people get agitated over these kinds of discussions before, and that you were deliberately being misrepresented in what you said. I can't in any way see that being someone's definition of civil.

    One thing we agree on, you and I are worlds apart when it comes to CBM's and the whole general handling of a fictional world. I think we're done here on this. Its just going in circles and no offense but you are beginning to make contradictions on what you've previously said. I'll respectfully bow out with a quote from one of my favorite Batman writers;

    Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

    - Grant Morrison.
     
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  10. Adhesive Boy Registered

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    No, they most definitely arrive as he is leaving. He's being passed by a cop car as he's still next to the bank. It's also very obvious that one bus has a bunch of crap coming off it. Explosives would have been heard, especially if it was so late as to throw debris on the bus that was still around when the cops arrive, and the school bus would not keep driving if it was hit by the effects of an explosion. I don't think I need to mention how loud explosives that blow holes of that size in buildings are. I'm not ignoring anything, the only thing that was ignored was my point that the entire scene would look different if people in it actually acted like human beings. People wouldn't just walk around and traffic wouldn't keep running as if nothing had happened. Change that and many other things change as a result.

    To further make it funny how you claim that I'm ignoring something (and it's really only you who ignored my answer to that) you go on to ignore another point where I said that there is no possible way for the Joker to get down and escape before Batman has a chance to get in position. Batman fell down, The Joker can at best make his way to the elevators and go down.

    I said that as a response to the wider thing but I did not say that about anyone in this discussion and therefor I obviously didn't say that anyone here wasn't being civil.

    I mixed up what words I had used but you're starting to ignore points I've made so I agree that there is no way to move on as if what I say isn't responded to then there is no actual discussion.

    The quote makes little sense in this regard since then you can just write anything without any adherence to logic at all and just blame it on "it's not real". Nothing but excuses for bad writing. I've clearly given an example of a superhero property with a similar level and that goes for the same kind of tone, but that keeps a much better level of consistency and manages to write intelligent characters as actually being intelligent. So I'm not just pulling things out of thin air, I'm literally showing what it looks like when the writing is better.
     
  11. henzINNIT Registered

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    The school bus thing is funny to me cause someone clearly thought 'he pulls out into a line of matching buses' was a clever way to escape, but a bus that just reversed into a building still stands out quite a lot. The shot of the bus escaping seems to deliberately focus tightly on the bus so there is no moment to dwell on the massive hole in a building and the inevitable commotion that it would have caused.

    There's so much to love about TDK and I always will for those, but it is frequently dumb, and that really funny kind of dumb when someone falls on their face trying to be smart.
     
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  12. noob Registered

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    The Dark Knight > Avengers: Infinity War > Batman Begins > The Dark Knight Rises > Avengers: Age of Ultron > The Avengers > Avengers: Endgame
     
  13. Neil McCauley Registered

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    TDK trilogy stomps.

    1. TDK 10/10

    2. BB 9+/10

    3. TDKR 9/10

    4. IW 8.5/10

    5. AOU 8/10

    6. Avengers 7.5/10

    7. Endgame 7/10
     
    #338 Neil McCauley, Sep 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  14. Another_Fool Registered

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    Oh TDK trilogy. Pound for pound it beats the Avengers quadrilogy. Avengers 1-4 requires you to have seen the other MCU films to feel the optimal effect. But disregarding that, Age of Ultron is the weak link that makes me put the TDK set over the Avengers set.
     
    #339 Another_Fool, Oct 17, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  15. fan4stic Registered

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    1. That depends on whether or not Joker had other men in some other buses. While the movie never says it, and I think that's a flaw, within the movie, I think the Joker is shown to have other people doing things, like with the goons robbing the bank. Or the Joker may have used timing to use a lull in the bus lineup, before another one pulls up behind it. I think that's a fair criticism of what can be seen as a dumb rule of cool moment. But based on that, I wouldn't call it the dumbest movie. When the cops get around to talking to the people, maybe people would point that out. But I wouldn't assume that'd happen right away.

    2. I wouldn't assume the cops would see that dust or notice it right away in that situation. And I don't see the Joker going a bus route to be easy to get caught. Or necessarily keeping the bus. He could easily pull off into an alley, shift the money to another less conspicuous vehicle, like a stationwagon or something and drive off like nothing happened. And the cops could find the bus in like 20 minutes, without knowing where he went.

    3. I think rule of cool applies with this. It's a movie explosion. Gotham has corrupt cops that I think could help Joker in these things with the boats and explosives. These things aren't what I think makes something the dumbest movie.

    I said he wasn't logical. I didn't say he was disorganized or dumb in that way. I think Wilson Fisk is more uninteresting as a villain in Daredevil season 1 and that his plans aren't really the same as Joker's. I don't care enough to check to see if his plans are really airtight. And I don't think Joker really cares if his are.
     
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  16. Neil McCauley Registered

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    Yeah this. Everything of jokers plan is logical and well written, he got a bit of luck in the escape/chase but he didn’t exactly plan everything to go that way but his plan was to kindnap Harvey because he knew he wasn’t Batman and had cops doing the bomb thing already and could have called Batman before.

    or to kill Harvey so he could try to break Batman

    he makes small plan and detailed ones with his resources and henchmen not a flaw.

    The movie is perfect imo, the only thing could be this but I think both joker and Zemo’s plan are logical and it’s a movie so things are written to happen that way here. No flaw at all
     
  17. Adhesive Boy Registered

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    Holy thread necro, Batman!

    1. What does the Joker having men in the buses have to do with whether people in traffic and on the street react to a very obvious bank robbery? Clearly no one reacted whatsoever which makes Gotham feel like a movie set in that scene.

    2. It's very noticeable and a cop would never be more alert than when closing in on the scene of a serious violent crime. They'd keep their eyes open for the criminals escaping, for people that could be hurt, for people that could be in danger, and so on so anything unusual should make them take notice. But again the scene shouldn't really look like it does since there should be people around reacting to what's happening. Interesting things could happen in a chase but the scene is definitely shown in a way that is meant to make you think that dumb stunt is a brilliant plan. It feels like the setup for an episode of the old TV show.

    3. It doesn't really depend on whether the exact amount should make that kind of explosion, you still need huge amounts of explosives to destroy a building like a hospital.

    While they say Joker is an agent of chaos they actually show him as someone that is trying to be logical since he's making detailed and deliberate plans to achieve goals. His link to chaos is that he wants to create chaos in Gotham but he isn't made to embody it all that much. It's fine if you aren't as interested in Fisk but it's not very important to what I said since I wasn't arguing personal opinion but rather dissecting the tightness of the writing. Fisk's plans hold up well in cause and effect while the Joker's plans made me react to issues on the first viewing, even for watching a superhero movie.
     
  18. fan4stic Registered

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    1. Who says people in Gotham would care that much? It's not like people are going to run out of their cars and try to stop a bank robbery. What would they do? I think there are flaws in this movie. But I think a flaw like that and the explosive one don't make the movie the dumbest, to me.

    2. I think that depends on the situation and the cops doing it. I think it's not a fact that every cop would be on the lookout to see a bus with some dust coming off of it.

    3. I think rule of cool applies to that. It's a movie explosion.

    I don't think he has that detailed and deliberate plans. I think he manipulates and has plans here and there. I don't think he plans everything out. I don't know if his plans hold up that well. But I don't care to really look back and make sure. I don't think this equals the movie being the dumbest.
     
  19. Neil McCauley Registered

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    Literally nothing except a bit of luck/movie logic invalidates the plan at the start of the film, which is about mob/Harvey etc

    Joker wasn’t expecting Harvey to say he is Batman but he had the back up plan between the street and bomb explosion in case he got captured, did he have some luck there? sure, but these same applies to Zemo’s and Luthor's plan, it’s a movie and if everything happens is logical yet well-thought and goes the way someone intended to do that’s not a flaw. But just the movie following that same logic
     
  20. Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014/2019 Champion

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    Guys, stop sniping at each other. Debate the merits of your points. Not the merits of the poster themselves. Your arguments about the actual movie are more constructive and will actually make you look smarter. It's science
     
  21. Adhesive Boy Registered

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    1. Of course I don't expect them to try to stop it, I expect them to feel fear for a dangerous crime taking place near them. There's been gunfire and a bus has backed up through the entrance of the bank. Yet people are outside walking calmly as if nothing out of the ordinary is happening. A real movie set feel with extras that didn't even know what the scene was.

    2. Now you're just being silly. Of course they aren't looking specifically for a bus with dust coming off it when they arrive, they keep their eyes open for anything since they are of course going to want to prevent the bank robbers from escaping and/or hurting people. If you see a school bus with a bunch of dust coming off it you react since that's not normal.

    3. I already said that that's fine for the excessive explosion but the point of the bombing was still to destroy the hospital, and destroying a huge building always requires extreme amounts of explosives.

    His plans are certainly plenty detailed and rely on him having lots of people in the right places in his control. Just setting up the ferry bomb scenario is highly complex. It wasn't a criticism that he isn't embodying chaos in that sense though, it's nothing new for the Joker to make plans. I don't think it's very hard to notice where the plans don't make much sense though, and the tone doesn't support that in my view. The kind of crime movies Nolan tried to approach tend to have scripts that really hold up for analysis, at least the good ones. You can also stop trying to misquote me as you're continuously leaving out a vital part of the sentence. Refer to what I said or don't refer to it at all.
     
  22. fan4stic Registered

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    1. I said I think a flaw like that doesn't make this movie the dumbest. It doesn't mean much to the plot or the main character stories for the civilians to be scared and such.

    2. Why is it silly to think the cops wouldn't necessarily so much see a bus with dust on it as something to straight go for in their situation and to think that that, as a flaw, to me, isn't a strong one and, like the others, to me doesn't make it the dumbest movie?

    3. I don't think that's a real issue, with, as a whole, what the movie presents in the situation.

    I don't know if that's true. I think the Joker has plans, but doesn't really care how they go. As an example, the Joker asked for a phone call to set off the bomb, and when he didn't get it, he pushed the cop into coming at him, and held him hostage to get a phone for his phone call. I don't think he planned for that specifically. I think he played it by the seat of his pants. Similar to the attack on the truck. I think the Joker wasn't planning on Gordon being alive and catching him. I think that just worked out for him. I don't know, maybe he was going to wait for the cops to come. I don't know if the Joker planned on Gotham criminals being put on one boat and civilians on the other. That could've just happened and he worked with it. I think it's a flaw that Gordon, if I remember correctly, assumes that Joker plans to use Gotham's criminals. I think it's one of the larger ones. I don't know for sure what I'm misquoting.
     
  23. Neil McCauley Registered

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    Joker's plan is well-planned and logical but he did have some luck between the chase scene and escape but it’s movie logic and since everything has a reason, it’s not a flaw.

    End of the story....
     
  24. Adhesive Boy Registered

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    I've already corrected you in the past that my statement very obviously said that I think TDK is the dumbest movie I've seen people call very intelligent. Obviously not just the dumbest movie ever and it's pretty dishonest to still keep trying to say that.

    1. I'm just discussing the opening scene to show how many issues there are there already. If I were to discuss everything in the film my posts would be very, very long. There are of course tons of other things, like how getting your face burned off only has the effect of messing with your sanity. It doesn't affect your physical status at all beyond appearance, even though the trauma is fresh.

    2. Either you continue to be dishonest or you need to start reading more carefully. I've never written anything to suggest they would go directly for the bus, but they would notice it and draw obvious conclusions when they see the damage to the bank and at the very least call that in for other responders to deal with. It's very pointless to discuss if you just keep ignoring what I say, although I guess this does hint of why we have a different view of what's dumb.

    3. I'm not telling you what to think so that's fine, but I find it hilarious that even when they know a hospital has been rigged they can't find any explosives, despite the extreme amounts it takes to actually destroy the building. There is no "just a movie explosion" aspect to that, the message is that he destroyed the building.

    The Joker most definitely cares how things play out. That's why he had his own trigger for the ferries. There are many highly intricate parts of his plans so there's a lot of careful planning. All that is great though, when the details make sense at least, but it falls apart on the more loose plot armor parts where things just go like he wants because people around him act nonsensically. I just find it hilarious that some think TDK is so intelligent when there are so many movies that have scripts that hold up to deep analysis without breaking, while still being deeper, while TDK is suspect already on a first viewing.
     
  25. fan4stic Registered

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    I don't think I remember that. Even that I'm not sure I agree with.

    1. It doesn't only have the effect of sanity. It's said he's in agonizing pain. I may think it's forced and could've been done better, but I also place that under aspects of the genre. This is the same series of movies that had the microwave emitter. I also don't think the burns was the only sanity effecting thing for him.

    2. I don't necessarily agree with the idea that the cops would being paying enough attention to the buses to see that, in that way.

    3. The movie develops that Joker is using corrupt cops, and I think the movie never says the cops went looking for explosives, I think it just shows Gordon giving the order to evacuate the hospitals.

    I'm not sure if that's what I meant when I said that he doesn't care, more that he's not counting on 1 thing to always go right and nothing else to make his plan work. The people didn't blow eachother up, so even though he may have thought they would, he goes to the next way of doing it, in doing it himself. I think in a similar, but not exact way, with the phone call. He may have planned to get a phone call for the situation himself, but when that didn't happen, he did something else to get the phone call by taunting the cop into a fight, so he could hold him hostage and get the phone call. Is it suspect? Or is that how the Joker acts? The Joker says he's a dog chasing cars, he just does things. I think that's not a poor estimate of the character. Yes, he relies on plot armor as a character. I think I've come to see the Joker as someone who does ridiculously things that get himself hurt or could get him killed. In reality he may not survive, but this movie isn't reality. I see it as a heightened world. Realistically, would Batman be able to do what he does, like that?
     

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