B89 Picture Post

[Whack Arnolds]

There is certainly no mystery about Bale's Batman, as we know everything going on in his head, we know why he became Batman, we even know how he made his costume and where he gets his gadgets from. Plus, he shouts at bad guys to scare them whereas Keaton's Batman only had to appear to scare them - that's why he's dressed as a bat.

LOL, who says it is the 'screaming' that is scaring the people in BEGINS? He only screams at one person in the movie, and that is Flass. And yet still, everyone else is scared. Same deal. Different approach. I rather know why this man chooses to do what he does, as opposed to treating his background and idelogies as an after thought.

 

[El Payaso]

LOL, who says it is the 'screaming' that is scaring the people in BEGINS? He only screams at one person in the movie, and that is Flass. And yet still, everyone else is scared. Same deal. Different approach. I rather know why this man chooses to do what he does, as opposed to treating his background and idelogies as an after thought.

In both you know the reasons why he does what he does.

 

[Sandman138]

I rather know why this man chooses to do what he does, as opposed to treating his background and idelogies as an after thought.

It's all there in the Burton films, it's just not handed to you on a platter. I perfer to look between the lines.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

It's all there in the Burton films, it's just not handed to you on a platter. I perfer to look between the lines.

LOL WTF!! It's not EVEN clost to "being all there" in the Burton films. Go ahead and look between the lines and imagine the why's and how's, but it all most certainly isn't there. It's not about being handed on a 'platter'. It's a movie, it should tell a story. Not everything should have to be 'read between the lines'. And it wasn't even that, the Burton films mainly treated all of the essentials and interesting aspects of why and how Bruce has become the way he has as an after thought. It isn't till damn near the last part of the film until we see that his parents were killed... then it just quickly rushes into more Joker v.s. Batman confrontations. Don't make it sound as if that if someone rather actually see the development of the character from the beginning, that they are in need of it being 'shown on a silver platter'. You make it sound so condescending, and belittling, as if someone is less intelligent because they actually rather see the story unfold rather than just look for it and make up one's on conclusions as to why he is what he is. Just cause his parents were murdered NEVER explains why he would dress up as a Bat and fight crime... You said yourself you like Batman Year One, so obviouslly you like things when they are 'shown to you on a silver platter'. So try not to be such a *****e next time.

 

[Sandman138]

NLet's see, we get "people fear what they don't understand" pounded into our heads or some derivitive of that for all of the first act, we get an uber in-depth explanation of every part of his suit, he says straight up "If I become a symbol, I'm incorruptuble" (which isn't even his idea here, or a conclusion he came to, it was something he and we as an audience were spoon fed), the overabbundance of exposition in that film is overwhelming. How is that not being handed information on a platter?

And from a thread a while back, points that I've made that you didn't address: "[The Burton movies] may not have been as closely tied to the comics as most would have liked and that is a valid complaint, but the script made sense as a self contained story. Burton's Batman was willing to kill a man once he realized that the man in question had killed his parents, is that the Batman from the comics? No. However, in the context of the movie it was a logical progression. And there was character development. At the begining of Batman, Bruce is unsure of himself. He is not comfortable in his own skin so he dons a mask, which makes him feel like a freak. He goes out and fights crime, but he isn't sure why he does it. He seconed guesses his actions, and is a nuerotic mess in general. When he confronts the man who destroyed his life, he finds his determination and resolve and by the end of the movie has become confident in the path he has chosen for himself." - http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191292&page=6

The point is, whereas Begins explains Batman's motivations in a cut and dry manner, Burton's movies leave you to interpert his motivations through his actions. I perfer this. Yes, I like Year One, but you'll notice that my favorite Batman story is Arkham Asylum, which is much more ambiguos.

 

[El Payaso]

Burton left maybe too much to the imagination. Begins over-explained things so one would not understand a bit of it.

 

[Sandman138]

http://img304.imageshack.us/my.php?image=41te.jpg







These rock!!!

I wish they had used these. They're like comic book covers or those old serial posters, but they're also dark and atmospheric. Very nice. I remember having a Burger King collecter's cup from the first movie that had one of the drawing of Batman in the first one on it.

 

[theMan-Bat]

I really dig this poster! Awesome:

 

[Whack Arnolds]

NLet's see, we get "people fear what they don't understand" pounded into our heads or some derivitive of that for all of the first act, we get an uber in-depth explanation of every part of his suit, he says straight up "If I become a symbol, I'm incorruptuble" (which isn't even his idea here, or a conclusion he came to, it was something he and we as an audience were spoon fed), the overabbundance of exposition in that film is overwhelming. How is that not being handed information on a platter?

So any info given to you is being handed to you on a platter? It's a movie, not a search to find something. It tells a story, so you are always being 'handed something on a silver platter'. And don't act is if the Burton movies didn't beat you over the head with concepts. Because they damn sure beat us over the head with the duality aspect of the character...so much so that it became boring. They used it as a theme in the first one, and supposedly based of "german expressionism" all of the surrounding characters around Bruce in Returns deal with different sides to his personality...thus even further going into the blatantly obvious theme of 'duality'. How many times do we need to go into it? I mean they cover it in B89, and then all over Returns is virtually about duality. Add to the fact that the actual plot/story, and not the metaphors and themes, are even more boring than its predecessor. BEGINS went an adverse route, telling a story of why and how he came to be. One should expect to be 'handed the information', because that was the point of the story. And it also touches on some themes not yet touched by previous Bat-flicks.

Now I have seen from many of your posts, and I know that you simply don't like Batman Begins. With comments like "someone who mops around for two hours", which is so blatantly biased and not true... there is no point in even being objective with you.

I like them both pretty equally. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm not one who has to feel like he has to take sides in the Burton v.s. Nolan war, because I enjoy both. You however have drawn the line in the sand in regards to the BEGINS film. Which is ashame, because it is a very good Bat-flick, and its purpose provides the opptimism to have the greatest Batman flick of all time ahead of it.

 

[theMan-Bat]

And don't act is if the Burton movies didn't beat you over the head with concepts. Because they damn sure beat us over the head with the duality aspect of the character...so much so that it became boring. They used it as a theme in the first one, and supposedly based of "german expressionism" all of the surrounding characters around Bruce in Returns deal with different sides to his personality...thus even further going into the blatantly obvious theme of 'duality'. How many times do we need to go into it? I mean they cover it in B89, and then all over Returns is virtually about duality. Add to the fact that the actual plot/story, and not the metaphors and themes, are even more boring than its predecessor.

Boring? boring? I've seen Batman and Batman Returns so many times, and they are never boring. "Weird and gross", but not boring. The duality is interesting and psychological. There is nothing boring about killing sleeping children. And Christopher Walken is never boring.

 

[Sandman138]

I don't like Begins, I never said I don't like Nolan. I'm looking foward to the sequel, I'm interested in his take on things. However, as a movie, Begins falls flat, and I have argued this elsewhere in an objective manner. I'm just sick of hearing people say stupid things about what was "lacking" in Burton's film.

 

[TwilightPro101]

I really dig this poster! Awesome:

The memories are a-coming back!

 

[Whack Arnolds]

I don't like Begins, I never said I don't like Nolan. I'm looking foward to the sequel, I'm interested in his take on things. However, as a movie, Begins falls flat, and I have argued this elsewhere in an objective manner. I'm just sick of hearing people say stupid things about what was "lacking" in Burton's film.

BEGINS most certainly doesn't 'fall flat' as a movie. If you can make an argument for BEGINS falling flat as a movie, I can make a case for any other movie as 'falling flat'.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

Boring? boring? I've seen Batman and Batman Returns so many times, and they are never boring.

I never said Batman 1989 was boring. B89 is straight up the most fun movie out of all 5 Batman movies released. I was saying as an entertainment perspective, Returns is boring compared to B89, BEGINS, hell even Forever. It's outward plot isn't very interesting. It's internal story is however a better story, it's just that not many out there are able to value that.

The duality is interesting and psychological.

I never said it wasn't, but it is over used within the first two films. We didn't need it as a strong theme in the first, and then be the STRONGEST theme in the second. It get's a little repeditive. We, the audience knows that Bruce Wayne deals with duel identities.

There is nothing boring about killing sleeping children.

Yeah, if sleeping children were actually killed. Instead we got a super boring and ridiculous Penguin commando squad, with little firecrackers strapped to their backs. That my friend, is LAME.

And Christopher Walken is never boring.

Definetely not. Never said he was. "More champaigne?"

 

[Mr. Socko]

Batman '89 had the best marketing of any movie, EVER.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

Batman '89 had the best marketing of any movie, EVER.

Damn straight it did. Ish was EVERYWHERE. I remember grown men wearing Batman ties to work... lol.

 

[Sandman138]

So any info given to you is being handed to you on a platter? It's a movie, not a search to find something. It tells a story, so you are always being 'handed something on a silver platter'. And don't act is if the Burton movies didn't beat you over the head with concepts. Because they damn sure beat us over the head with the duality aspect of the character...so much so that it became boring. They used it as a theme in the first one, and supposedly based of "german expressionism" all of the surrounding characters around Bruce in Returns deal with different sides to his personality...thus even further going into the blatantly obvious theme of 'duality'. How many times do we need to go into it? I mean they cover it in B89, and then all over Returns is virtually about duality. Add to the fact that the actual plot/story, and not the metaphors and themes, are even more boring than its predecessor. BEGINS went an adverse route, telling a story of why and how he came to be. One should expect to be 'handed the information', because that was the point of the story. And it also touches on some themes not yet touched by previous Bat-flicks.

First of all, German Expressionism has nothing to do with the script. It's a genre dedicated to the visual expression of feelings. Examples are the films Metropolis, The Cabinet Of Dr. Caligari, Nosferatu, and the paintings of Edvard Munch (at via influence). Don't use a phrase if you don't know what it means, or better yet do some research it's not that hard, what with the internet and all.

Second, narratives are defined, in part, by "hermeneutic composability" (Bruner, 1991) where there is the meaning an author is expressing and a meaning the audience is extracting, so yes movies (and all forms of narratives) are a "search to find something". To the extent that it is a search, I perfer ambiguity, as I perfer to be an active audience rather than a passive one.

Third, that there were more than two aspects to Batman's psychological makeup in Returns negates your claim that it was "virtually about duality". Rather it was, as Kevin put it in the Returns Apreciation Thread, how the aspects "all work with each other at some points, but they never all work together, and eventually they destroy each other". It's also about Bruce realizing that he's hiding behind a monster that he created because he feels helpless as himself, as evidenced by his final exchange with Penguin:

PENGUIN
I think you're jealous that I'm a
genuine freak, and you have to wear
a mask!

BATMAN
Maybe you're right.

In any case, it's about duality only to the extent that one of Bruces ongoing conflicts (externalized by Selina) is an inability to reconcile the mask with the man under it. This is not the main point of the movie.

Fourth, I already addressed that Batman '89 was about Bruce finding his purpose for being Batman by confronting the man who killed his parents. This is not simply about duality, rather it is about transformation.

Fifth, even if Burton's movies beat you over the head with their concepts (debatable as you seem to have overlooked many of them) they didn't come out and put it in a vapid line such as "everyone fears what they don't understand".

Now I have seen from many of your posts, and I know that you simply don't like Batman Begins. With comments like "someone who mops around for two hours", which is so blatantly biased and not true... there is no point in even being objective with you.

Of course I'm biased, everybody is. I have an opinion, and to the extent that express my opinion in a clear fashion (assuming others are using the lexicon of the discourse I'm engaging in) I expect others to have a different opinion and to debate my points. That said, if you want a more objective view of Begins from me, I suggest you lookhere.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

Well thank you for your knowledge Sandman.

 

[Sandman138]

Do I sense sarcasm?

 

[theMan-Bat]

I never said Batman 1989 was boring. B89 is straight up the most fun movie out of all 5 Batman movies released. I was saying as an entertainment perspective, Returns is boring compared to B89, BEGINS, hell even Forever. It's outward plot isn't very interesting. It's internal story is however a better story, it's just that not many out there are able to value that.

For me, Returns is the most fun. I'll take Catwoman, Penguin, the Red Triangle Gang and Christopher Walken over Jack, Knox, Bob and Vicki screaming.

We didn't need it as a strong theme in the first, and then be the STRONGEST theme in the second. It get's a little repeditive. We, the audience knows that Bruce Wayne deals with duel identities.

We the comics reading audience knew that. Everybody else didn't. All they knew of Batman and Bruce Wayne was Adam West dancing the Batusi, etc.

Yeah, if sleeping children were actually killed. Instead we got a super boring and ridiculous Penguin commando squad, with little firecrackers strapped to their backs. That my friend, is LAME.

That my friend, was TWISTED and FUN. I love the penguins. Dark humour. Weird, sure, but not boring.

 

[Whack Arnolds]

For me, Returns is the most fun. I'll take Catwoman, Penguin, the Red Triangle Gang and Christopher Walken over Jack, Knox, Bob and Vicki screaming.

Aren't you forgetting someone? Joker perhaps? Joker > Catwoman, Red Triangle Gang, Penguin, Taco Bell, McDonalds, Max Shrex etc. hehehe

You are definetely in the minority in thinking Returns was the most fun of the bat-films. B89 was pure entertainment and excitement from beginning to end. That's one of the reasons why it was so popular. It made you feel like a kid, even if you were an adult.

We the comics reading audience knew that. Everybody else didn't. All they knew of Batman and Bruce Wayne was Adam West dancing the Batusi, etc.

By Returns, everyone knew about the light and darkside to the character.

That my friend, was FUN. Dark humour. Weird, sure, but not boring.

Come on man, lol. Like Returns all you like, but Penguins with firecrackers are LAME.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Aren't you forgetting someone? Joker perhaps? Joker > Catwoman, Red Triangle Gang, Penguin, Taco Bell, McDonalds, Max Shrex etc. hehehe

I put Jack in there. Jack is the Joker.

You are definetely in the minority in thinking Returns was the most fun of the bat-films. B89 was pure entertainment and excitement from beginning to end. That's one of the reasons why it was so popular. It made you feel like a kid, even if you were an adult.

Didn't make me feel like a kid.

By Returns, everyone knew about the light and darkside to the character.

And that's a part of the character. That needs to be there.

Come on man, lol. Like Returns all you like, but Penguins with firecrackers are LAME.

Not to me. Not to Tim Burton. And not to Stan Winston.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I love evil sewer mutant Penguins but not more then The Joker and Larry the cable guy

 

[Whack Arnolds]

I put Jack in there. Jack is the Joker.

Joker sounds cooler and has more resonance than a plain name like "Jack". You didn't call Catwoman, Selina...

Didn't make me feel like a kid.

You didn't think it was a fun or good movie?

And that's a part of the character. That needs to be there.

Duh, but not explained and over analyzed.

Not to me. Not to Tim Burton. And not to Stan Winston.

Well you three should have a party.

 

[Sandman138]

Make that four. Penguins+rockets=party to the max!