The Dark Knight Rises Bane or the Joker?

[Anno_Domini]

Why should this thread be over?

Because now a TDKR thread has mostly turned into a Joker thread, lol.

 

[MAKAVELI25]

Because now a TDKR thread has mostly turned into a Joker thread, lol.

How bout you do whatever it is you want and those of us still interested in the subject do the same?

 

[Anno_Domini]

What is it that I'm doing?

All I said was I agreed that the thread should be over.

I'm saying this; I'm not doing anything

 

[Ken-Kaniff]

Joker is such a great villain and he was portrayed very good by Heath Ledger, but I think this obsession with him turns into fanatism sometimes, here on SHH and many other places I bet.

Even if he was also my favorite villain from Nolan's Batman Trilogy, there is absolutely NO DOUBT that Bane was THE BEST VILLAIN! He broke Batman, literally and spiritually and he turned Gotham citizens against eachother and nearly destroyed it.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

The Joker.

He killed Rachel. He made Harvey Dent into Two Face. He made Batman take the blame for Harvey's evil crimes. He forced Gordon to become corrupt by fabricating a lie that affected Gotham City dramatically. He broke Batman spiritually by making him a lonely, sad recluse in Wayne Manor for years.

Nothing Bane did was as bad as all of that.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Woah now...Joker didn't make Batman take the blame for Harvey's crimes. That was all on Batman. Highly doubt taking the crimes for Dent was still part of Joker's plans.

 

[Ken-Kaniff]

The Joker.
He made Harvey Dent into Two Face.

How? How did he knew Dent was going to survive, he could have very well died along with Rachel, Batman could have failed to save him.

He made Batman take the blame for Harvey's evil crimes.He forced Gordon to become corrupt by fabricating a lie that affected Gotham City dramatically.

As it was already answered, not Joker's plan/decision, but Batman's.

He broke Batman spiritually by making him a lonely, sad recluse in Wayne Manor for years.

He was lonely and sad of his failure to save Rachel, if he would have a gf in TDKR, Bane wouldn't have stopped from finding and taking her away from Bruce! Especially since he knew from the start that Bruce Wayne = Batman.

Nothing Bane did was as bad as all of that.

Making Batman loose his wealth & health, beating the s**t out of Batman and breaking his confidence, then throwing him in a prison which was almost impossible to escape from, while putting a TV there to allow Batman to see how he, Bane, will destroy Gotham slowly wasn't as bad? Not to mention almost detonating a nuclear bomb in the city, after he caused a crazy chaos. Sounds a tad worse to me...

 

[Anno_Domini]

I do agree that Joker helped create Two-Face, though. Joker pushed and pushed and connived Dent's sprit into becoming a freak just like Joker.

Joker gave him the "tools", and Dent carried on with his own plan.

 

[BatLobster]

I don't think The Joker could have ever predicted Batman taking the fall for Harvey's crimes. He knew Gotham would "cast him out like a leper" when they no longer needed him....he just couldn't have known that Batman himself would have taken such a drastic step to make himself no longer needed.

 

[The Joker]

The Joker.

He killed Rachel. He made Harvey Dent into Two Face. He made Batman take the blame for Harvey's evil crimes. He forced Gordon to become corrupt by fabricating a lie that affected Gotham City dramatically. He broke Batman spiritually by making him a lonely, sad recluse in Wayne Manor for years.

Nothing Bane did was as bad as all of that.

Exactly

How? How did he knew Dent was going to survive, he could have very well died along with Rachel, Batman could have failed to save him.

Because he deliberately gave Batman Dent's address. He knew, or at least expected Batman to get to his destination before the Police would with theirs.

Why else would he bother sending Batman after Dent if he thought Dent was going to die anyway?

As it was already answered, not Joker's plan/decision, but Batman's.

Gordon: "The Joker won. Harvey's prosecution, everything he fought for undone. We bet it all on him. The Joker took the best of us and tore him down"

Batman: "The Joker cannot win. Gotham needs it's true hero"

Joker's actions forced Batman into taking the fall for Dent so Gotham could be saved, otherwise Joker wins. It's very straight forward. If not for the Joker, Rachel would be alive, Dent would be alive, and Bruce wouldn't have spent 8 years in misery.

How does a temporary back injury and a few months in a pit begin to compare to that?

He was lonely and sad of his failure to save Rachel, if he would have a gf in TDKR

He was sad and lonely because Batman was no longer needed, Batman was hated, and Rachel was dead. He had given up on life.

Who does he have to thank for all of that? Only one man; Joker.

Bane wouldn't have stopped from finding and taking her away from Bruce!

That's conjecture. Bane never made a bee line for Alfred or any of Bruce's other allies.

Especially since he knew from the start that Bruce Wayne = Batman.

Yes, second hand information he got from the LOS.

Making Batman loose his wealth & health, beating the s**t out of Batman and breaking his confidence, then throwing him in a prison which was almost impossible to escape from, while putting a TV there to allow Batman to see how he, Bane, will destroy Gotham slowly wasn't as bad? Not to mention almost detonating a nuclear bomb in the city, after he caused a crazy chaos. Sounds a tad worse to me...

Not nearly as bad for several reasons;

1. The back injury was very temporary, and sorted by a simple smack on the back

2. He could have easily reclaimed his wealth by proving fraud. Lucius said that himself.

3. Breaking his confidence? How did he break his confidence? Who's the one who made him a miserable lonely wretch for years? It's not Bane.

Bane didn't take anything from Bruce that he couldn't have gotten back. Joker did. Bottom line; which villain had the biggest impact on Bruce? One who gave him a temporary back injury and threw him in a pit for a few months? Or the one who took his best friend and love of his life Rachel, his hope for Gotham's future Harvey Dent, and forced his reputation as Batman to become a multiple murderer, thereby throwing him into 8 years of misery.

Rhetorical question, of course. It's The Joker.

 

[BatLobster]

Edit.

 

[The Joker]

Good sir...surely you remember that Joker intentionally pulled a switcheroo on Batman with the addresses, right?

I'm not trying to even start any kind of argument, just want to make sure you haven't forgotten this delicious twist of the knife from The Joker.

Yes of course. That's my point. Joker wanted Dent saved. That's why he switched addresses because he knew Batman had feelings for Rachel ("Does Harvey know about you and his little bunny?") and he would go for her. Hence why he tricked Batman into thinking Dent's location was Rachel's.

Far more impressive intelligence portrayal there, too, recognizing such a crucial thing about his enemy from mere observation.

EDIT: I see you retracted your comment...

 

[BatLobster]

Yes of course. That's my point. Joker wanted Dent saved. That's why he switched addresses because he knew Batman had feelings for Rachel ("Does Harvey know about you and his little bunny?") and he would go for her. Hence why he tricked Batman into thinking Dent's location was Rachel's.

Far more impressive intelligence portrayal there, too, recognizing such a crucial thing about his enemy from mere observation.

Yeah sorry, I re-read your post and now realize what you meant.

edit: sorry, lack of sleep right now. My posting has become a mess lol

 

[Anno_Domini]

Gordon: "The Joker won. Harvey's prosecution, everything he fought for undone. We bet it all on him. The Joker took the best of us and tore him down"

Batman: "The Joker cannot win. Gotham needs it's true hero"

Joker's actions forced Batman into taking the fall for Dent so Gotham could be saved, otherwise Joker wins. It's very straight forward. If not for the Joker, Rachel would be alive, Dent would be alive, and Bruce wouldn't have spent 8 years in misery.

But can you really say Joker made Batman take the blame for those crimes? It was Batman's choice to take the blame for Dent's crimes, but I can't really see how we can pin that on Joker's doing that Batman took the blame.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah sorry, I re-read your post and now realize what you meant.

edit: sorry, lack of sleep right now. My posting has become a mess lol

Do you mind if I make a personal observation; you never seem to be offline. You're always here when ever I log on. Maybe it's just coincidence, or maybe you have a job that has you chained to a computer?

Am I accurate at all lol? If so no wonder you're tired.

 

[BatLobster]

I'd say Joker is as much to blame for Joker taking the blame for Harvey as Joe Chill is to blame for Bruce becoming Batman.

They're the general force behind it, but in the end it's still a drastic choice for Bruce to make.

 

[The Joker]

But can you really say Joker made Batman take the blame for those crimes? It was Batman's choice to take the blame for Dent's crimes, but I can't really see how we can pin that on Joker's doing that Batman took the blame.

What was the alternative, Anno? Let Joker win? Did you see that as an option for Batman? I don't. Joker's actions forced Batman into that situation.

What kind of hero would allow the villain to win when they can prevent it.

 

[BatLobster]

Do you mind if I make a personal observation; you never seem to be offline. You're always here when ever I log on. Maybe it's just coincidence, or maybe you have a job that has you chained to a computer?

Am I accurate at all lol? If so no wonder you're tired.

You've got me figured out. Definitely chained to a computer with my job. I tend to stay logged in even if the browser is minimized. I'm freelance, and sometimes I work from home too... which is the great enabler. And I can be a deadly procrastinator.

I lurked this site for years before ever signing up, and I knew if I ever did join, I'd become an addict. Alas, here we are lol

 

[Anno_Domini]

What was the alternative, Anno? Let Joker win? Did you see that as an option for Batman? I don't. Joker's actions forced Batman into that situation.

What kind of hero would allow the villain to win when they can prevent it.

I'm not saying there was an alternative, but simply saying I don't see how it's Joker's doing that made Batman take Dent's crimes on his own name. It was Batman's choice, and by no standards would I call it as something Joker wanted.

But, I want to ask this..what did it really prevent? Is there any reasoning that Dent having killed five people would have taken away the chance to keep the mob in jail for six-twelve months as was mentioned earlier in the film?

 

[The Joker]

You've got me figured out. Definitely chained to a computer with my job. I tend to stay logged in even if the browser is minimized. I'm freelance, and sometimes I work from home too... which is the great enabler. And I can be a deadly procrastinator.

I lurked this site for years before ever signing up, and I knew if I ever did join, I'd become an addict. Alas, here we are lol

That explains it. You have my sympathies. I have a friend who has a similar job to yours, and I swear his eyes are turning square shaped from staring at a computer monitor for as long as he does every day.

I'm not saying there was an alternative, but simply saying I don't see how it's Joker's doing that made Batman take Dent's crimes on his own name. It was Batman's choice, and by no standards would I call it as something Joker wanted.

For someone like Batman, that wasn't a choice at all. It's like if someone presented you with the choice of letting everyone think you killed someone, or everyone in your family dies.

Do you see that as a choice? Of course not. You'd want to save your family no matter what. The same as Batman wanted to save Gotham. Sacrificing himself for Gotham wasn't a choice. In Batman's mind it was the ONLY thing to do.

"The Joker cannot win"

That's how he phrased it. It simply cannot happen. There's no alternative as far as Batman was concerned. That's what I mean when I say Joker forced him into it.

But, I want to ask this..what did it really prevent? Is there any reasoning that Dent having killed five people would have taken away the chance to keep the mob in jail for six-twelve months as was mentioned earlier in the film?

Mayor: "The public likes you. That's the only reason that this might fly. But that means it's on you. They're all going to come after you now. And not just the mob. Politicians, journalists, Cops. Anyone who's wallet is about to get lighter. Are you up to it? You better be. Because they get anything on you and those criminals are back on the streets, followed swiftly by you and me"

Batman: "You're the symbol of hope I can never be. Your stand against organized crime is the most legitimate ray of light in Gotham in decades. If anyone saw this everything would be undone. All the criminals you pulled off the streets would be released and Jim Gordon will have died for nothing"

It was 549 criminals, kept locked up for 18 months, which also would have given the city an opportunity to do more to improve things, and net bigger fish. Remember what Harvey said; "The head guys make bail, sure. But the mid level guys they won't. They can't afford to be off the streets. They'll cut deals that will include some jail time. Think of all you can do with 18 months of clean streets".

 

[Anno_Domini]

For someone like Batman, that wasn't a choice at all. It's like if someone presented you with the choice of letting everyone think you killed someone, or everyone in your family dies.

Do you see that as a choice? Of course not. You'd want to save your family no matter what. The same as Batman wanted to save Gotham. Sacrificing himself for Gotham wasn't a choice. In Batman's mind it was the ONLY thing to do.

"The Joker cannot win"

That's how he phrased it. It simply cannot happen. There's no alternative as far as Batman was concerned. That's what I mean when I say Joker forced him into it.

Still calling it a choice my friend. He took the blame because he viewed himself as someone that could take anything that was thrown at him and believed him to be anything Gotham wants him to be(which, imo, as much as it works thematically, it doesn't sit well for Bruce wanting to create this symbol to fight against injustice, but as I said, it worked thematically). Gordon even knew it was a choice by trying to make Batman not do it, because Batman didn't have to. It was a choice.

Mayor: "The public likes you. That's the only reason that this might fly. But that means it's on you. They're all going to come after you now. And not just the mob. Politicians, journalists, Cops. Anyone who's wallet is about to get lighter. Are you up to it? You better be. Because they get anything on you and those criminals are back on the streets, followed swiftly by you and me"

Batman: "You're the symbol of hope I can never be. Your stand against organized crime is the most legitimate ray of light in Gotham in decades. If anyone saw this everything would be undone. All the criminals you pulled off the streets would be released and Jim Gordon will have died for nothing"

It was 549 criminals, kept locked up for 18 months, which also would have given the city an opportunity to do more to improve things, and net bigger fish. Remember what Harvey said; "The head guys make bail, sure. But the mid level guys they won't. They can't afford to be off the streets. They'll cut deals that will include some jail time. Think of all you can do with 18 months of clean streets".

But name me any case where the entire thing would falter over a District Attorney killing anyone that isn't sent to jail already. The people he killed were outside the circle of those criminals that were sent to jail and Maroni bought his way out because he was the head guy. I don't see how letting Dent's true nature be revealed would've hurt the case that was already conceived earlier in the film.

 

[The Joker]

Still calling it a choice my friend.

That's your choice

He took the blame because he viewed himself as someone that could take anything that was thrown at him and believed him to be anything Gotham wants him to be(which, imo, as much as it works thematically, it doesn't sit well for Bruce wanting to create this symbol to fight against injustice, but as I said, it worked thematically). Gordon even knew it was a choice by trying to make Batman not do it, because Batman didn't have to. It was a choice.

He took the blame because "The Joker cannot win. Gotham needs it's true hero". Being able to take it was what he told Gordon when Gordon said he can't do it.

And yes, it also ties in thematically with the Batman being the outcast who can endure (which TDKR then ignored by ending Batman's career after that night).

But name me any case where the entire thing would falter over a District Attorney killing anyone that isn't sent to jail already. The people he killed were outside the circle of those criminals that were sent to jail and Maroni bought his way out because he was the head guy. I don't see how letting Dent's true nature be revealed would've hurt the case that was already conceived earlier in the film.

Name me a law that rubbed out organized crime and turned a city into peace time. Name me a case like the RICO case of TDK. Name me a Police department that would get away with supporting a masked vigilante that breaks the laws all the time.

Nolan's laws in Gotham are not indicative of real life laws.

 

[Anno_Domini]

He took the blame because "The Joker cannot win. Gotham needs it's true hero". Being able to take it was what he told Gordon when Gordon said he can't do it.

You bring up that quote from Batman still, but Gordon still tried to convince him not to. If someone can be convinced into not doing something, then that would mean it's a choice, lol. I see what you mean and how you definitely view it as something that Batman was forced to do, but I don't see it that way, lol. Nonetheless, we both agree on how much misery Joker created for Bruce, though.

And yes, it also ties in thematically with the Batman being the outcast who can endure (which TDKR then ignored by ending Batman's career after that night).

There's nothing that says Batman didn't endure it with the events of TDKR, though. Gotham becomes a pretty clean city, so there was nothing for Batman to do. He could just be shown and walk around to stop purse snatchers and then endure when the police gave chase, but that's about it.

Name me a law that rubbed out organized crime and turned a city into peace time. Name me a case like the RICO case of TDK. Name me a Police department that would get away with supporting a masked vigilante that breaks the laws all the time.

Nolan's laws in Gotham are not indicative of real life laws.

Can't really give you an exact case on RICO being used such as it was in TDK, but it has been used many times since its inception in '70.

This is true that Nolan's "laws" are very different than in real life, but you just have to stop thinking for a bit when dealing with how Nolan used these laws and enacted them as well as thinking a DA's crimes would take away any and all prosecutions under his name, which is incredibly not true. That's one thing which I think Nolan should've put some thought into.

 

[The Joker]

You bring up that quote from Batman still, but Gordon still tried to convince him not to.

Of course Gordon tried to convince him not to. He didn't want his friend and ally taking the blame for something he wasn't.

How does that alter that Batman saw it as no choice at all?

If someone can be convinced into not doing something, then that would mean it's a choice, lol.

Did Gordon convince him?

I see what you mean and how you definitely view it as something that Batman was forced to do, but I don't see it that way, lol. Nonetheless, we both agree on how much misery Joker created for Bruce, though.

Fair enough then. There's always a middle ground.

There's nothing that says Batman didn't endure it with the events of TDKR, though. Gotham becomes a pretty clean city, so there was nothing for Batman to do. He could just be shown and walk around to stop purse snatchers and then endure when the police gave chase, but that's about it.

I'll let the man himself cover this one;

Christopher Nolan: The end of ‘The Dark Knight’ left the characters in a pretty interesting place. Because we’re trying to make one unified story here, so it’s not another episode, another Batman episode, if you like. For me, that meant really trying to be true to where the characters were left. And Bruce Wayne, as Batman, has made a rather large sacrifice at the end of ’The Dark Knight.’ For that to mean something, he really has to have succeeded in a sense, in his mission. He has to have a Gotham that at least superficially doesn’t need Batman anymore. And that leaves him frozen. And the eight year period is about showing that he’s retired in a sense, that he’s hung up his cape and his cowl. But he hasn’t been able to move on, he’s stuck.

http://www.flicksandbits.com/2012/0...an-interview-for-the-dark-knight-rises/28690/

Can't really give you an exact case on RICO being used such as it was in TDK, but it has been used many times since its inception in '70.

This is true that Nolan's "laws" are very different than in real life, but you just have to stop thinking for a bit when dealing with how Nolan used these laws and enacted them as well as thinking a DA's crimes would take away any and all prosecutions under his name, which is incredibly not true. That's one thing which I think Nolan should've put some thought into.

There's several ways to look at it if you want to try and find the realism in it. There's matter of ongoing trials for hundreds of mob afiliates that was very much dependent upon Dent and any kind of scandal could have disrupted and undone all of that, as Batman tells Dent earlier on in the film.

The idea of symbols, Harvey being the White Knight of Gotham, is very much the kind of thing you can find in the real world.

We polish up our symbols all the time. How many times do you hear ugly things such as:

- Gandhi referred to Africans as kaffirs (basically same as American N******) when he was a young lawyer in South Africa

- Documented recordings revealing Martin Luther King Jr running sexual trains with prostitutes with fellow members of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference

- A panel of experts at BU censored MLK for plagiarizing his doctoral dissertation

- Nelson Mandela organized terrorist attacks for the ANC prior to being sent to prison

- Mother Theresa stopped believing in the Christian God towards the end of her life

The failings of "heroes" are often covered up for because the community is served by the good that they symbolize. The stuff like MLK's plagiarizing and sexual indiscretion weren't disclosed for DECADES because it would ruin their legacy

In the news was eulogizing Rodney King as "symbol for racial harmony" yet how many of those stories disclosed that the REASON he ran from police is because he was on probation for assaulting a Korean storeowner during a robbery with a tire iron? He was high on crack and he didn't want to go back to jail so he drove that hyundai 90 miles an hour... and the entire city of LA had to burn for it, white guys had their skulls bashed in on Crenshaw and Asians were shot and had their businesses burned. Yet King is the "symbol of racial harmony." Instead of being indignant about a movie for pointing out the ugly truth about humans, how about if you get mad at the LAPD and CNBC because that stuff does happen in real life.

So I'm sure you can see why the image of Harvey Dent would be so important both during his work in getting these prosecutions, and the aftermath with his legacy and how the people see him as a person.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Of course Gordon tried to convince him not to. He didn't want his friend and ally taking the blame for something he wasn't.

How does that alter that Batman saw it as no choice at all?

When one can convince you to not do something, I would call that being a choice someone is making. MAYBE Batman didn't view it as a choice or didn't want to, but it's simple to realize that it was a choice. If it wasn't, then Gordon would be on board as well with doing the only possible thing and that is to lie about Dent.

Did Gordon convince him?

Of course he didn't, but that doesn't take away that even Gordon viewed it as a choice as he tried to convince otherwise.

Fair enough then. There's always a middle ground.

Yah, I realized that after the stalemate of our last discussion, haha.

I'll let the man himself cover this one;

Christopher Nolan: The end of ‘The Dark Knight’ left the characters in a pretty interesting place. Because we’re trying to make one unified story here, so it’s not another episode, another Batman episode, if you like. For me, that meant really trying to be true to where the characters were left. And Bruce Wayne, as Batman, has made a rather large sacrifice at the end of ’The Dark Knight.’ For that to mean something, he really has to have succeeded in a sense, in his mission. He has to have a Gotham that at least superficially doesn’t need Batman anymore. And that leaves him frozen. And the eight year period is about showing that he’s retired in a sense, that he’s hung up his cape and his cowl. But he hasn’t been able to move on, he’s stuck.

http://www.flicksandbits.com/2012/0...an-interview-for-the-dark-knight-rises/28690/

Not to start anything more than what we've started, but Nolan didn't TECHNICALLY say he has been retired all eight years, only that the eight-year period is to show that he has retired. That's really all Nolan said. And it did very well show Bruce retired as the Batman, but that doesn't take away the chance that Batman could have still been around until Gotham City was clean of all major crime, and I view it as that.

There's several ways to look at it if you want to try and find the realism in it. There's matter of ongoing trials for hundreds of mob afiliates that was very much dependent upon Dent and any kind of scandal could have disrupted and undone all of that, as Batman tells Dent earlier on in the film.

The idea of symbols, Harvey being the White Knight of Gotham, is very much the kind of thing you can find in the real world.

We polish up our symbols all the time. How many times do you hear ugly things such as:

- Gandhi referred to Africans as kaffirs (basically same as American N******) when he was a young lawyer in South Africa

- Documented recordings revealing Martin Luther King Jr running sexual trains with prostitutes with fellow members of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference

- A panel of experts at BU censored MLK for plagiarizing his doctoral dissertation

- Nelson Mandela organized terrorist attacks for the ANC prior to being sent to prison

- Mother Theresa stopped believing in the Christian God towards the end of her life

The failings of "heroes" are often covered up for because the community is served by the good that they symbolize. The stuff like MLK's plagiarizing and sexual indiscretion weren't disclosed for DECADES because it would ruin their legacy

In the news was eulogizing Rodney King as "symbol for racial harmony" yet how many of those stories disclosed that the REASON he ran from police is because he was on probation for assaulting a Korean storeowner during a robbery with a tire iron? He was high on crack and he didn't want to go back to jail so he drove that hyundai 90 miles an hour... and the entire city of LA had to burn for it, white guys had their skulls bashed in on Crenshaw and Asians were shot and had their businesses burned. Yet King is the "symbol of racial harmony." Instead of being indignant about a movie for pointing out the ugly truth about humans, how about if you get mad at the LAPD and CNBC because that stuff does happen in real life.

So I'm sure you can see why the image of Harvey Dent would be so important both during his work in getting these prosecutions, and the aftermath with his legacy and how the people see him as a person.

I think you have become confused as to what I said about Dent's crimes having to be hidden. I understand that Dent's image, to Batman's viewpoint, shouldn't be trashed on with the reveal, but I don't see how such a thing would simply take away all of his past prosecutions. Even during such scandals, things such as certain prosecutions still have to move forward if it's for the common good such as getting rid of the mob.