Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by MAKAVELI25, Nov 19, 2012.
Holy Molly! I didn't catch that. I really need to see it again.
This all occurs in the montage as Bane is speaking in front of Blackgate. Epic scene
I disagree, because it wasn't a holiday. Bruce was impaired to do nothing while his city was crumbling, the entire town. That's real pain.
Yes, Joker definitely had more of a lasting negative impact on Bruce personally. Oddly enough I think Bane had more of a positive impact on Bruce in the long run. If Bane didn't break him and throw him in the pit while torturing Gotham, Bruce might have never learned to value his own life.
Let's not forget though, both men reduced Bruce to tears after all, heh.
Indeed. The Joker is a one of a kind type of villain. There's a discussion between C-Nolan, J-Nolan and Goyer in the TDK Trilogy: The Complete Screenplays book. In it, Jonah confirms that the Joker is his favorite villain, while Chris seems to imply he's currently more taken with Bane. It's a nice read.
The bold is the biggest reason why Joker gets the 'Impact' award. It's not the actual plans between the two, but what Joker did kept Bruce on the sidelines for years. As much as Bane tried to create a false revolution or try to destroy Gotham City, Joker left an impact that hit Bruce Wayne hard after Joker's "reign of terror" ended.
I meant it was a holiday compared to the lasting pain Joker left him with.
8 years vs 5 months.
No contest. Joker messed up Bruce the worst.
I agree that the Joker left the biggest impact on Bruce, but can you imagine the impact Bane left on EVERYONE in Gotham? This isn't Afghanistan or some third world country where people are used to war, this is a city full of civilians (AND CHILDREN) most of whom likely had never been in a warzone. Can you imagine the psychological toll a five month siege would take on 12 million civilians?
Gordon's pretty little speech at the end made it sound like Gotham was on the up and they were all worshiping Batman cos he saved them.
Do you think everyone will remember this for eight years and keep everyone in a desperate mode as Joker's actions did with Bruce?
Granted, yes, a siege on US soil could be as terrible as 9/11, but I just feel that Joker's impact was much, much worse as it kept a man from resuming his duties as the guardian of the city.
Is this a serious question? You don't think a 5 month siege on an American city will be remembered for much longer than a maybe one month period (being generous) where a clown/terrorist blew up random ****? Bane's actions would change America's infrastructure forever
The emotions of people. Do you think they will be affected as much as Bruce that will last for eight years?
I'd even argue Gotham was living under Joker effects for 8 years since their peace time was based on a lie that was created to stop the Joker from winning (The Joker cannot win. Gotham needs it's true hero).
They were just blissfully unaware of it.
A lot of this comes down to second movie vs. third movie stuff. A lot of the time in trilogies, the second movie is where evil really gets the upper hand.
For instance, Darth Vader...bigger impact in Empire or Jedi? See what I mean?
It's any three act structure. Joker does most of his worst damage in TDK's second act just like Bane does most of his in TDKR's second act. And TDK is the second act of the TDK trilogy.
Don't get me wrong though, Bane did a toooon of damage. But in terms of the hero's journey, Joker ultimately beats Bats. Whereas Bane is the overwhelming threat that Bruce must overcome to reach the end of his journey.
When I said impact, I didn't strictly mean on Bruce. Bruce atleast is somewhat suited for battle, he trained 7 years for that very purpose. We're talking about a city full of civilians (never trained for wartime purposes) who were basically in a warzone for five months. If we're talking the citizens of Gotham being impacted vs. just Bruce Wayne (and a few of his allies), I think the citizens win.
@ The Joker: The Dent Act was an indirect result of the Joker's actions, Bane's plan WAS the siege.
True, but still undeniably a result of the Joker's actions.
If we're talking about indirect results of actions, Bane's plan would change American's National Security policies forever. A 5 month siege on an American city would show the world that even the greatest nation (some would say) was vulnerable to this kind of attack, and thus every major city in the Western world (ATLEAST) would have to up the ante on how drastically they protected themselves from breach. The plan would not just affect Gotham (as the Dent Act presumably did), it would change the WORLD. You guys saw how 9/11 affected the Intelligence/Security community, can you imagine how much Bane's plan would?
Oh I didn't know we were talking worldwide. I thought we were talking about Gotham. The confinements of Batman's world.
Impact period. I didn't try to define it in the opening post, you can take anything you want from it
To be fair I should have specified though. My bad
Personally, I really wonder how the villains would of acted with each other.
Ras, never really got a chance to interact with Scarecrow.
Harvey dent and Joker interacted with each other, and I thought it was an amazing scene seeing the two.
Bane, and I guess Talia..but well, that was sold short I feel, so you could argue catwoman, which had a nice little scene or background knowledge with even catwoman scared of Bane.
But how Ras would have reacted around scarecrow, seeing bane react to Ras, or the Joker talking to either of those, they are all distinct characters in the way they act.
Overall, I feel Bane made a bigger impact than the Joker did on Gotham. Joker however made a bigger impact on Bruce, as Bane never really..."broke" the bat, but just the body, for a while.
Where as the Joker realllllly broke the Bat, what he set in motion, never really got fixed till 8 years later. And although Gotham was fixed, Bruce was so far gone, that suicide became an option.
To compare the two would be apples to oranges, I don't feel Joker was really ever interested in Gotham, but merely trying to ensure the world was just chaos, that you could reason chaos. That there was justification to chaos, that there really wasn't any other way to view things.
Bane had one viewing, that of the Ras Al Ghul and the league of shadows, it shows where loyalty can get you what path it can take you down, there's quite a bit of loyalty shown through out the movie, Bruce's loyalty to gotham.
Two opposites -
out of sheer preference I prefer the Joker...he really takes someone and makes them see things..differently, with reason. Chaotic reasoning, but it's well-reasoned, and yet bruce/batman does his best to counter that, and doesn't get swayed on his view point or lose sight of whats right or wrong, even at the worst of times. I think thats what I most enjoyed about the Joker, he has a way of swaying people, of manipulating or inspiring(whatever way you want to look at it.) them but in an evil way. Much like Batman tries too, but in a positive good way.
Bane on the other hand, is just pure evil, accepts that, and is much more like a dictatorship about it. It's my way, or I'll kill you sort of attitude.
Much simpler but simple doesn't always mean worse.
Agreed. Ra's, Bane, Talia, the League believe that justice=balance (revenge). For all them, their 'revenge' ends up being their undoing (leaving Bruce to die in his burning home & torturing Bruce in the pit, ironically being the reason why he's able to escape)
This is the difference between them and Bruce (and Rachel).
Then the criteria should be expanded on in speaking on the impact left on Bruce and the impact left on the city. For Bruce, Joker wins; for the city, Bane wins. Not to get into a discussion on Gotham dealing with Bane's five-month tyranny afterwards, but the city felt more of an impact within five months than Joker's "reign" of like a week or so, for however long it is.
All I wrote in the original post was impact, I never defined whether it was strictly on Bruce or the city
Which is also, in any case, why I said this
To be honest, there is absolutely no reason to compare the two. In a lot of ways they are exact opposites as villains, even if they both wanted to destroy Gotham and break Batman.