Batman #700

[Saint]

IGN has the cover:

We can add Finch to the list of artists who don't understand that Dick Grayson just isn't built like that, but otherwise it's decent. The really cool part isn't Batman, though--it's Finch's Gotham. Would have preferred DC tap Nguyen to do this; he's perhaps the best cover artist they've got (and the best current Batman artist, too).

It's unclear if this falls into Tony Daniel's current run, or if someone else will be writing it. That's worrying. Daniel is an absolutely miserable writer; he turned Battle for the Cowl--which should have been a Batman milestone--into a half-baked worthless trashbag comic, and his current run on Batman is doubly mediocre. The idea of him writing Batman #700 gives me a bit of a headache.

 

[IBRAH08]

That would be a badass picture of bruce, but yeah Dick is much smaller. Gotham looks cool, but hahaha wtf would that building be in RL? hahahaha. As for Daniels, eh he's alright. I certainly don't hate this arc, but I've seen better arcs in my life. I do like his art though. Any details on 700??? could be cool, I hope it is.

 

[Saint]

The solicitations for that month should be emerging soon, so I guess more info then. I remember Ed Brubaker's Batman #600 back in... what was it? 2002? Batman renounced his civilian identity. It was pretty fantastic, as pretty much everything Brubaker does is. Too bad he went Marvel-exclusive.

 

[Drz]

I don't see why it should be Dick or Bruce in that picture. To me it just seems Batman really. Muscular build seems to suggest Bruce but the gauntlets currently suggest Dick. I really just think it's meant to be Batman withouth giving away who is behind the cowl. It's just Batman know what i'm saying?

Also you have to remember Battle for the Cowl was more or less just editorial thing while giving Tony a chance at writing. I understand as a Jason fan you didn't enjoy the whole Jason-shooting-kids thing or Oracle making a fridgy which is debatable really, shame you aint digging his current run tho. I love it for a 6 issue arc. Nothing phenonimal but just flat out fun with a nice detective story.

 

[Saint]

Also you have to remember Battle for the Cowl was more or less just editorial thing while giving Tony a chance at writing.

Yes, I know that. It doesn't change anything. As an editor, you don't hand what should be the most important Batbook of the decade over to an inexperienced writer. That Daniel did, in fact, ruin it with his terrible writing is no surprise--and I'm not just talking about the crap he pulled with Jason. BFTC was simply a crappy book all-around. Bad dialogue, bad plotting, bad characterization, bad everything.

Daniel is responsible for the crappy product he produced, and DC editorial is responsible for putting him on the project in the first place. Honestly, the stupidity involved baffles me: I know these people have brains, and it would have taken only moderate reasoning power to say "Hey, shouldn't we get Greg Rucka, Paul Dini, Geoff Johns, or at least somebody who knows what they're doing to pen this?"

 

[Mace Dolex]

You know what the bad part is with giant size anniversary issues like this? back in the day one looked forward to these 64 page epics that you would spend like 30 minutes to read.

Now with every page being a splash page with fewer panels and less exposition the whole comic is read in 1 minute.

 

[Drz]

Yes, I know that. It doesn't change anything. As an editor, you don't hand what should be the most important Batbook of the decade over to an inexperienced writer. That Daniel did, in fact, ruin it with his terrible writing is no surprise--and I'm not just talking about the crap he pulled with Jason. BFTC was simply a crappy book all-around. Bad dialogue, bad plotting, bad characterization, bad everything.

And how was everything this bad? To me it seems you really are just disappointed on the treatment Jason Todd has been given, but you're really saying all the characters who appeared in the story we're badly characterized? Thats pretty absurb.

Daniel is responsible for the crappy product he produced, and DC editorial is responsible for putting him on the project in the first place. Honestly, the stupidity involved baffles me: I know these people have brains, and it would have taken only moderate reasoning power to say "Hey, shouldn't we get Greg Rucka, Paul Dini, Geoff Johns, or at least somebody who knows what they're doing to pen this?"

All those writers are already doing something Batman related, so what is your problem? Do you feel "Batman" comic title needs the best talent or what?

 

[Saint]

And how was everything this bad? To me it seems you really are just disappointed on the treatment Jason Todd has been given, but you're really saying all the characters who appeared in the story we're badly characterized? Thats pretty absurb.

For the most part, yes, they were. Dick Grayson's decision process was laughably underdeveloped, satisfactorily addressing not one of the numerous misgivings we know he would have about becoming Batman. Bruce and Dick had a complicated relationship, especially when it came to the possibility of Dick succeeding Bruce as Batman, and the failure of the series to address any of this was plainly embarrassing. Tim served little purpose in the story besides being shoe-horned into a Batcostume for no particular reason, because somebody thought it would be cool. Then, of course, there's the issue of the completely evil Jason Todd and dangerously ******ed Oracle.

When one conceives of a story where Dick Grayson decides to become Batman, there are a lot of things that should be in that book--and very few of them were in Battle for the Cowl. BFTC was a three issue action scene with nothing meaningful or compelling to say about these characters or the influence of Batman on their lives, and ultimately nothing to say about why any of them would or would not take up the mantle. Winnick's Batman #687 was hardly perfect, but he delivered more in one issue than BFTC did in three. The book failed to deliver on such a scale that if it had been to one page stating "Meanwhile, Dick Grayson becomes Batman," nothing valuable would have been lost.

All those writers are already doing something Batman related, so what is your problem? Do you feel "Batman" comic title needs the best talent or what?

I already told you. This should have been a much better book than it was. This was a pivotal moment in Batman history, and they blew it. Also, yes, I do believe that all Batman titles should have the best talent on them (and I don't mean veterans, I mean anyone--new or old--who can deliver).

 

[Drz]

Regarding the Grayson decisions and whatnot. Wasn't this enough addressed in Judd Winnick arc and the 1st arc of Batman and Robin? You have to remember Daniel was aiming for something of a B-class action movie with tons of action and giving a perspective for each of the Robins. You already know Tim took the Batman costume because Gotham criminals weren't afraid anymore. Someone had to say "you know what? screw it i'll become Batman and thats it! This town needs the symbol!" and thats what they got. Sure Jason Todd who we all know is so desperate now for attention and a chance of being a hero to even make Flamingo as his arch enemy, but yeah we're both Jason fans and you seem to dislike this loser treatment they're giving to Jason. Really BTFC was the beginning of his downfall. Punisher style vigilantes just don't work in Gotham. I can easily agree the whole Oracle thing was downright pointless. Yeah Judd Winnick's issue was even marketed as the epilogue for Battle for the Cowl, but hey here we can see how 3 issues are too little, but it was more or less giving Daniel a chance and if you ask me it payed off. Batman comic for me has been great, but well you just said it was mediocore, so well each for their own. =/

 

[IBRAH08]

Thanks God, Finally some activity on the Comic section of the Batman Forum. To be honest I can't say that I really really disliked BFTC, but looking back, it was just... forgettable. I suppose that that is a crime in and of itself, so I see where you are coming from Saint. In a time where I should have been going crazy waiting for each issue I often wouldn't make it to a shop until monday or so of the next week (with new issues being delivered on Wednesdays of course), it just didn't feel satisfying. I feel almost robbed now that I'm really looking back on it. However, Daniel's current work isn't BAD and as I said before I do like his art. SO I guess we'll just have to see

 

[Saint]

Regarding the Grayson decisions and whatnot. Wasn't this enough addressed in Judd Winnick arc and the 1st arc of Batman and Robin?

No, it wasn't. The truth is, nobody really delved into Dick's decision--Daniel didn't do it because he was writing a crappy three issue action sequence, and the others didn't do it because they were only picking up the ball after the fact. Morrison wanted to get right into the adventures of Dick as Batman without any of the baggage (he said so outright), and while Winnick dealt briefly with Dick's trouble getting a feel for the role, he didn't cover what I discussed above, because the time for that had already passed. It's material that should have been in Battle for the Cowl, and because it was not, it was largely forgotten about in the aftermath.

You have to remember Daniel was aiming for something of a B-class action movie with tons of action and giving a perspective for each of the Robins.

It doesn't matter what he was aiming for. He executed what he was aiming for poorly, and he was probably aiming for the wrong thing to begin with. B-class action movies suck; why would anyone want to turn a pivotal moment in the history of Batman into a B-class action movie?

Ultimately, you don't decide to become Batman on a whim. There was a process these three guys should have been going through, both personally and as a group, that would lead to one of them becoming Batman. That was not in the book, and what was in the book was half-baked, meaningless, and often completely ******ed.

You already know Tim took the Batman costume because Gotham criminals weren't afraid anymore. Someone had to say "you know what? screw it i'll become Batman and thats it! This town needs the symbol!" and thats what they got.

Yes, I know what Daniel wrote. The fact that he wrote it doesn't mean it holds up under scrutiny. Tim's not a moron; he would understand that putting on a batcostume for one night wouldn't accomplish anything of value, since he evidently had no intention of wearing the costume full time.

 

[Drz]

One night surely wouldn't accomplish much, but Tim knew he had to start acting to get a response. I don't know see the big deal about Dick's motivations. He already did it once already, so taking up the Cowl once again tho this time for even more serious reasons doesn't for me need some huge explanations, but hey it's each for their own. I also don't think this was so pivotal in the history, it's more of the fact Dick BEING Batman and proving himself to be WORTHY of Batman thats an accomplishment. Which is Morrison's 1st arc.

 

[Saint]

One night surely wouldn't accomplish much, but Tim knew he had to start acting to get a response.

This doesn't change my response.

I don't know see the big deal about Dick's motivations. He already did it once already, so taking up the Cowl once again tho this time for even more serious reasons doesn't for me need some huge explanations, but hey it's each for their own.

Every indication has always been that Dick simply would not want to become Batman. We know from Knightfall/Prodigal that he would do it, despite the fact that he did not want to, if Bruce asked him--because he would do anything Bruce asked him to do. That said, I think it would have been most appropriate for Bruce, in the messages he left for his people, to say that he doesn't want Dick to become Batman.

See, not a matter of "huge explanations." It's about exploring what, had this been written competently, should have been a difficult and complicated decision for Dick--and for Tim and Jason, too. It's about writing an actual story about the succession of Bruce Wayne, instead of just an action sequence.

I also don't think this was so pivotal in the history,

Right, because Daniel blew it, delivering a pile of crap instead of something of the value this project should have been.

 

[Saint]

Well, I guess that's that: Daniel is now the regular writer on Batman.

This is deeply disappointing. If things don't improve, I may have to drop this book from my pull list for the first time in ten years.

 

[Saint]

Edit: Power of double posting, activate!

 

[Drz]

If you truly think Battle for the Cowl was something more important, thats fine. It's your opinion on the matter. You didn't enjoy it and thats all we can say. It's apples and oranges, and yeah i'd say you should just drop reading the title since you can't seem to enjoy the writer whatsoever. No need to use 2.99 dollars on something you might not enjoy.

 

[CConn]

I thought they announced Daniel as the ongoing writer a while ago?

He's not terrible. He really isn't. In fact, if they paired him with a half-decent writer (Winick?), his stories might actually be really good.

 

[CrimsonMist]

If you truly think Battle for the Cowl was something more important, thats fine. It's your opinion on the matter.

That's not what Saint is saying. He's saying that the idea of there being a Battle For Cowl is important. Therefore, he's also saying that Battle For The Cowl SHOULD HAVE BEEN TREATED as an important story of the Batman mythology, and not a 3 part action sequence.

You just don't replace Batman to replace him. There are thematic underpinnings to it. Certain characters are established as having certain feelings about being Batman and none of it was in Battle for The Cowl.

Under the pen of a much better writer, like Dini, or Morrison, Battle For The Cowl could have been an epic, emotional 3-part story. That's not what we got.

 

[Saint]

I thought they announced Daniel as the ongoing writer a while ago?

Perhaps I missed something in the meantime, but originally the plan was for Winnick to return after Daniel's arc.

He's not terrible. He really isn't. In fact, if they paired him with a half-decent writer (Winick?), his stories might actually be really good.

I don't agree. Though his Batman run hasn't been as miserable as BFTC, it's still painful to read. I mean, just look at that dialogue...

That's not what Saint is saying. He's saying that the idea of there being a Battle For Cowl is important. Therefore, he's also saying that Battle For The Cowl SHOULD HAVE BEEN TREATED as an important story of the Batman mythology, and not a 3 part action sequence.

You just don't replace Batman to replace him. There are thematic underpinnings to it. Certain characters are established as having certain feelings about being Batman and none of it was in Battle for The Cowl.

Under the pen of a much better writer, like Dini, or Morrison, Battle For The Cowl could have been an epic, emotional 3-part story. That's not what we got.

Yeah, that's it exactly.

 

[CConn]

I really didn't post that to get your personal thoughts on the matter, but that's anyway, I enjoyed it like I enjoy a good root canal.

 

[Saint]

I really didn't post that to get your personal thoughts on the matter, but that's anyway, I enjoyed it like I enjoy a good root canal.

Pardon me, I thought we had met: my name is Saint, and when you quote me, I respond. You know, with my thoughts. In general, I understand that to be the function of places such as this.

 

[Drz]

Well it really is each for their own. Sometimes things just get disappointed for some. Kinda like Resurrection of Ras' al Ghul. ;___; Tho the conclusion from Dini was awesome! yet it wasn't even collected to the trade that costed 30 bucks! ;_____; What fool i was!

 

[Mr. Earle]

Would have preferred DC tap Nguyen to do this; he's perhaps the best cover artist they've got (and the best current Batman artist, too).

Nguyen is one of my favourite artists but... i dont know how to put this... His style is a bit confined. I assume that they re going with a legendary and timeless look in #700 and Nguyen's is more noir. Besides, #700 shouldnt look like every issue of Streets or Dini's Detective, unless Nguyen can play with his style.

It's unclear if this falls into Tony Daniel's current run, or if someone else will be writing it. That's worrying. Daniel is an absolutely miserable writer;

He should focus on drawing or on writing. By trying to do both he cant work on it and improve and the result is mediocre on both cases.

he turned Battle for the Cowl--which should have been a Batman milestone--into a half-baked worthless trashbag comic, and his current run on Batman is doubly mediocre.

Seconded.

Brubaker's Batman #600 back in... what was it? 2002? Batman renounced his civilian identity.

Wasnt that when he renounced his identity and got Dick in tears about losing his adoptive father? That story really pissed me off. I cant remember, how was it resolved? I mean how did Batman get back to being Bruce again?

and I'm not just talking about the crap he pulled with Jason.

Jason was the only thing i liked in BftC. It made a lot of sense to me that Jason would get hurt about Bruce's death and would try and succeed him in his own way. He even did so in B&R as Red Hood, only Morrison did it a lot better.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Re: Battle for the Cowl

I'm totally with Saint on this one. If BftC should have been about something, it should have been about emotions and character development. I feel cheated that we didnt get that in the story that was supposed to be about the most crucial point in Batman's history: Bruce's death! The Joker escapes every few months, but this will never happen again and DC lost a major opportunity here.

Well, I guess that's that: Daniel is now the regular writer on Batman.

This is deeply disappointing. If things don't improve, I may have to drop this book from my pull list for the first time in ten years.

There's still Streets of Gotham and B&R. I also hear that Detective will soon be focusing on Dick and drop Batwoman?

 

[Saint]

Nguyen is one of my favourite artists but... i dont know how to put this... His style is a bit confined. I assume that they re going with a legendary and timeless look in #700 and Nguyen's is more noir. Besides, #700 shouldnt look like every issue of Streets or Dini's Detective, unless Nguyen can play with his style.

his style is no more "confined" than anyone else on the Batbooks.

Wasnt that when he renounced his identity and got Dick in tears about losing his adoptive father? That story really pissed me off. I cant remember, how was it resolved? I mean how did Batman get back to being Bruce again?

It was part of Murderer/Fugitive. Bruce lost it in prison in a prior issue (another great one) and decided to bust out. Once he was out, he decided the avoid the whole mess by simply not maintaining his civilian identity any longer. It was actually a great issue and a great arc (well, the Brubaker and Rucka parts were great). The short answer to how things got back to normal is simply that Bruce wised up.

Jason was the only thing i liked in BftC. It made a lot of sense to me that Jason would get hurt about Bruce's death and would try and succeed him in his own way. He even did so in B&R as Red Hood, only Morrison did it a lot better.

The issue isn't that he put on a Batman costume. The issue is that he became a complete psychotic for no reason, shooting children and declaring the saving lives is "meaningless."

There's still Streets of Gotham and B&R. I also hear that Detective will soon be focusing on Dick and drop Batwoman?

Dropping Batwoman is a huge mistake; Rucka's run on Detective has been the best part about the post-RIP batbooks.