Batman: Battle for the cowl

[Drz]

I'm sorry but it was from the Wizard magazine and i read it at 4chan's /co/ :/ So you just have to have faith in me! :P But really Grant stated how he hated to answer these things because he likes to leave that mystery floating. Because personally i like the idea of Dr. Hurt simply being an evil man in an evil secret corporation.

 

[Cain]

Yeah he touched on it in Wizard a few weeks back. I couldn't really find a scan or anything Saint so you'll have to settle for the closest thing I found, a little summary posted on another forum

So the symbolism of the black and red was all foreshadowing because Joker knew he was gonna get creamed by the "Red and Black" Batmobile?

Dr. hurt was the Dr. who put Batman through the isolation training years ago? But he's really possessed by the Devil in the guise of the Black Hand because that makes sense since Bruce doesn't believe in magic? ("People don't want to accept a supernatural explanation. But yes: This is the story of how Batman cheats the Devil" ... "It ties back into my Batman #666 issue (with Damian)"

No mention of the monastery scene or the poison tea?

9 fingered Joker? Who cares? Dead Man's Hand? But no one dies?

Batmite has the green tentacles and a weird extra head and eyes because he's the creepy "imaginary friend" that lives in Bruce's head?

The new fork-tongued, slick back haired, anorexic Joker is based on psychopathic Germans?

 

[Dirt Like Me]

Morality isn't a digital state; it's not either on or off. It's a matter of degrees. Just because you're bad enough to be called a villain doesn't mean you're willing to murder children just because they're wearing capes. Jason Todd would have never shot Damian. That is, not until Tony Daniel ruined him.

I agree with you. But I don't think I've made my point clearly. My thought is that the concept of exactly what is a 'child' has to be given some flexibility in these stories.

Damian is a League of Assassins-trained martial artist who has actually murdered a person. (Then he brought their head to the Batcave in a bag). While that doesn't change the fact that he is of childhood age, I do think it tempers the severity of Jason's actions. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Dirt Like Me]

Nah that guy ended up becoming the new Azrael actually Jason ended up stealing his cowl which is the one he sports in the main BFTC book. He says to Dick "He found my cowl after the crash?" referencing the helicopter crash from Batman R.I.P.

Another reason why I should check out the miniseries. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[Drz]

Also you guys gotta admit Tony did surprise us with the new Black Mask. I really wonder who he is, but if its Hush who somehow developed a schizzofrenia i'l be nerd raging.

 

[Saint]

How did he surprise? We didn't know who he was two issues ago, and we don't know who is now. That's not a surprise. That's not anything.

 

[Drz]

Did you except him to be a schizzo? I sure didn't. For me that was a big surprise and it begs to wonder who bhe truly is.

 

[Saint]

Did you except him to be a schizzo? I sure didn't. For me that was a big surprise and it begs to wonder who bhe truly is.

It's a surprise that he's crazy? The vast majority of Batman's villains are crazy. Why would I be surprised?

 

[Drz]

God damnit Saint your ruining my enjoyment here! :P I just fell into Nepenthes' theory about it beng Hush and the n suddenly it turns out to be (possible stranger/new char) some schizzofrenic, i was like: Hot damn.

 

[Saint]

I agree with you. But I don't think I've made my point clearly. My thought is that the concept of exactly what is a 'child' has to be given some flexibility in these stories.

Damian is a League of Assassins-trained martial artist who has actually murdered a person. (Then he brought their head to the Batcave in a bag). While that doesn't change the fact that he is of childhood age, I do think it tempers the severity of Jason's actions. That's all I'm trying to say.

I don't agree. The fact that Damian is dangerous doesn't change anything. A state would not execute a dangerous child, and for good reason. Jason Todd would not shoot a dangerous child--nevermind one that, in this situation, wasn't actually a threat.

 

[Robin91939]

Any chance that this new Black Mask is Harvey Dent? Any chance that he's developed a new persona and personality ala "The Judge" from "Batman: Gotham Knights"?

-R

 

[Name Changed]

BULL! I call foul. Jason Todd brought a dynamic to Superheroes/Sidekicks that had never been explored. An unruly teenager. He wasn't a perfect golden boy like Dick. He was always more troubled but that was is best feature not is character downfall. He brought some much needed internal conflict to the Batman stories and explored something really cool.

I will say that I didn't like Jason Todd when he was Robin, but not because it was a poorly written character like the crap we're reading now. The reason that I didn't like Jason Todd is because I wasn't supposed to. He was designed not to be loved and adored like Dick. He was designed to be just a few inches below Dick and he was designed to be pissed off about that.

I didn't say he was a horrible character. I said he was a horrible Robin. There's a difference. Robin's purpose was always to be the aide and sidekick of Batman, designed to help him and follow his lead towards the salvation of Gotham City. Jason was nothing but a hindrance, and at times, a hazard and a red flag.

I'm not trying to say Jason Todd sucks, I'm trying to understand where this good grace and strict morality that everyone believes he had is coming from. As I recall, he was the Robin that may or may not have let a criminal fall to his death.

I don't think he's felt that he "deserves better than he really does" I think he "deserves better and knows it". Much like Bruce said in his message to Jason [blackout]Batman failed Jason Todd, not the other way around.[/blackout]

So? Bruce blames himself for Jason's predicament. That's nothing particularly outstanding or original. He blames himself for everything that he can't possibly prevent. It's been one of the things that's tortured Batman for years... his perfectionism, and self-condemnation towards the fact that he can't save everyone at once. Jason chose his own path, even when he was under Bruce's wing, and it was that defiance that got him on the other end of The Joker's crowbar. Bruce tried to tame him and keep him out of harm's way, even up to his death, but Jason didn't listen.

To put it simply, he dug his own grave. Batman's only carried the emotional weight of it because of his own impossible standards.

I would say it happened when he went from a man with rigid moral standards who happened to view lethal force as acceptable, to a maniac who considers life "worthless," shoots children and tries to murder his brothers. But hey, maybe I'm just a prude. Maybe that doesn't seem like such a steep drop to you?

'Lethal force'? That's downplaying it a bit. If a cop simply shoots a criminal in order to prevent his/her's escape, that would qualify as lethal force. Cutting off the heads of all of their lieutenants and stuffing it into a bag just to intimidate a few mob bosses is outright unnecessary, if not sadistic, mutilation. That's far from simply being somewhat lost. That's psychotic.

Bull. Yes, he was willing to use lethal force, and when he came back from the dead he was somewhat lost, but Battle for the Cowl inexplicably transforms him into a villain who considers the lives Batman saves, in his own words, "worthless." Now he shoots children and then laughs like a maniac. If you do not see the dramatic difference here, then... well, I don't know what to say. I can't even conceive of anyone, anywhere, ever claiming that his characterization in this book is consistent with his character.

Yet, in one of the last appearances Jason made in the comics before Battle of The Cowl took place, he was trying to shoot and kill Tim Drake (Robin #178). And only because Robin had interfered in his attempts to rally up the gangs of Gotham City to help him take it over. I don't know where his 'rigid moral standards' were there, but it seems to me that Jason was already off the proverbial deep end before he decided to play dress up with Bruce's mantle.

 

[Saint]

'Lethal force'? That's downplaying it a bit. If a cop simply shoots a criminal in order to prevent his/her's escape, that would qualify as lethal force. Cutting off the heads of all of their lieutenants and stuffing it into a bag just to intimidate a few mob bosses is outright unnecessary, if not sadistic, mutilation. That's far from simply being somewhat lost. That's psychotic.

Sure, I'll give you that. Still, though, there is a significant distinction between offing badguys and what's happening in Battle for the Cowl. Jason went Punisher upon his return, definitely--but being the Punisher is still a far cry from being a villain.

Yet, in one of the last appearances Jason made in the comics before Battle of The Cowl took place, he was trying to shoot and kill Tim Drake (Robin #178). And only because Robin had interfered in his attempts to rally up the gangs of Gotham City to help him take it over. I don't know where his 'rigid moral standards' were there, but it seems to me that Jason was already off the proverbial deep end before he decided to play dress up with Bruce's mantle.

I don't believe Jason was shooting to kill, but, supposing he was, that's simply a case of another writer mishandling him. Now, before you say "Well how do you decide which characterizations are the correct ones," well, that's easy. The ones that make sense. Judd Winnick re-introduced Jason and established a solid characterization for him, that made sense given who was before his death and what happened to him after it. That characterization, then, should have informed all those that followed it.

If a writer wants to take the character in a different direction, that's fine. That said, making this new direction make sense is not optional. You must do it, or it is simply mischaracterization, bad writing, and a failed story. That is what has happened here. If you're going to write a story where Bruce Wayne finally decides to off the Joker, you better give me a damn good reason why--and one that is consistent with all the reasons that he hasn't killed the Joker in the past.

Conversely, if you're going to tell me that Jason Todd--who is fiercely protective of children, and who dedicated his life to protecting the innocent--now believes that life is "worthless," and that inconvenient children should be shot for the sake of distraction, then you better give me a damn good reason why. Such inconsistencies with who the character is and what he believes in are completely absurd, and implementing them without giving compelling reason for such a personality shift is simply bad storytelling.

 

[Majic Walrus]

I didn't say he was a horrible character. I said he was a horrible Robin. There's a difference. Robin's purpose was always to be the aide and sidekick of Batman, designed to help him and follow his lead towards the salvation of Gotham City. Jason was nothing but a hindrance, and at times, a hazard and a red flag.

Right, which worked. You need to have bad good guys as well as good good guys.

I'm not trying to say Jason Todd sucks, I'm trying to understand where this good grace and strict morality that everyone believes he had is coming from. As I recall, he was the Robin that may or may not have let a criminal fall to his death.

Letting a criminal fall to his death is far different from going on a murdering spree and not caring about life. Trying to kill someone who's helped you like Tim or shooting Damian.

So? Bruce blames himself for Jason's predicament. That's nothing particularly outstanding or original. He blames himself for everything that he can't possibly prevent. It's been one of the things that's tortured Batman for years... his perfectionism, and self-condemnation towards the fact that he can't save everyone at once. Jason chose his own path, even when he was under Bruce's wing, and it was that defiance that got him on the other end of The Joker's crowbar. Bruce tried to tame him and keep him out of harm's way, even up to his death, but Jason didn't listen.

But in this case Bruce is right. Bruce did fail Jason Todd. He tried to make Jason Todd into Dick Grayson and expected the same things from him instead of treating him like his own person.

To put it simply, he dug his own grave. Batman's only carried the emotional weight of it because of his own impossible standards.

He was on a collision course with disaster from the point that he tried to steal the tires off of the Batmobile. Bruce took the responsibility of making him into something better and failed.

Yet, in one of the last appearances Jason made in the comics before Battle of The Cowl took place, he was trying to shoot and kill Tim Drake (Robin #178). And only because Robin had interfered in his attempts to rally up the gangs of Gotham City to help him take it over. I don't know where his 'rigid moral standards' were there, but it seems to me that Jason was already off the proverbial deep end before he decided to play dress up with Bruce's mantle.

Firstly, I'm talking about Jason within the past several months. Including the last issues of Robin with "Red Robin" that's where Jason's downfall started.

But secondly I can't say that Jason actually had any intent on killing Tim. I think he knew Tim would be able to avoid him but we can't really be sure about it.

As a side note anyone notice that Tim beats Jason as Red Robin and becomes Red Robin. Dick beats Jason as Batman and becomes Batman. Weird, huh?

 

[Drz]

Right, which worked. You need to have bad good guys as well as good good guys.

Can't really agree with this part since the fans wanted him dead.

 

[Saint]

The consensus of the fans is irrelevant. The fans don't know what they want; that's why they're the fans and not the writers. If heeded, fan consensus would have robbed us of some great comic book mythology, not the least of which would probably be the death of Barry Allen and Wally West becoming the Flash, as well as the modern day spiritual successor to that; the death of Steve Rogers and Bucky becoming Captain America.

 

[Watchman]

So does anyone else think that maybe Jason was the Devil Batman in 666 and not Lane?

 

[Drz]

So does anyone else think that maybe Jason was the Devil Batman in 666 and not Lane?

You missed out the Azrael mini? You should read it but if not interested:

Spoiler

Michael Lane survived the helicopter crash but states Dr. Hurt had died. The christian order have been giving the Suit of Sorrow to new Azrael attendees but all of them go insane due to the mystic powers too fast. Talia al'ghul wants the costume for herself to give it to Damian, believing he can sustain its mystical forces.

So the christian order decides to get Michael Lane, they also give him this spiritual sword called "The Sword of Sin" the league of shadows attack him and he kicks some ass, but Talia hits him with the "the sword of purity" which basicly makes you see all your committed sins and the source of your pain. These swords can do physical damage too btw, atleast the sin one. So after Talia sees potential in Azrael and allows him to continue his righteous adventure, Azrael goes to the batcave and fights Nightwing there, he then sees Oracle transmitting data about the satan Batman, who happens to be Jason Todd. So here its established that Jason found the satan batcostume and gave it small modifications. Nightwing tranqualizes Azrael, gets him to his apartment and goes to chat with Talia. He convinces her to give Lane the sword of purity and sin, along with the sorrow suit. Oh and Ras' al ghul is the secret leader of the christian order, having fooling them secretly for centuries.

So yeah a new Azrael serie is coming this fall, this should be exciting!

But yes i definatly believe the satan Batman from #666 is Jason.

 

[Batman]

While I don't agree with the direction that Jason Todd was placed in, a thought occurs... maybe he's grieving? As far as the Bat-family is concerned, after all, Bruce Wayne is dead. Maybe rather than hanging onto his moral convictions, like Dick does, Jason loses it when faced with a reality of a world without Bruce Wayne. And his desperation to fill the void that Batman left behind causes him to be blinded to his own morality. Sure, Jason and Bruce were at odds whenever he came back, but I'm sure there's still apart of Jason that respected him. Even idolized him.

Then again, Daniel didn't touch upon this - and opted for a far crappier explanation, so it's probably moot.

 

[Robin91939]

I've been out of the loop on the Batbooks for about a year now- when did Batman become about sorcery and magic and mystical ****?

My favorite part about Batman was that there was none of that...now Batman is fighting the Devil? There are swords of sin and mystical suits, etc?

Someone clue me in, please.

-R

 

[Batman]

I've been out of the loop on the Batbooks for about a year now- when did Batman become about sorcery and magic and mystical ****?

My favorite part about Batman was that there was none of that...now Batman is fighting the Devil? There are swords of sin and mystical suits, etc?

Someone clue me in, please.

-R

Well, ever since Grant Morrison took over writer's duties, he's been bringing back some Pre-Crisis elements and modernizing them to be included in the grander history of the mythology, so as to streamline the gap between Pre and Post continuities.

Spoiler

Part of doing this was a recent arc called "Batman, R.I.P.", in which an organization called The Black Glove targeted Batman and essentially destroyed him from the inside and out. The leader of this organization was Doctor Simon Hurt, who had been in charge of a program in which Batman volunteered himself to be subjected to extreme psychosis. Batman did it to better understand The Joker's mind, but in doing so, may have unwittingly gave his secrets to Hurt. (It should be mentioned, Hurt was already studying Batman for a project the GCPD had conducted while Gordon was absent, in an effort to replace Batman if he ever fell in the line of duty.)'

It was alluded to that Hurt may have actually been The Devil, looking to destroy Batman's soul.

It's a bit much to explain, and I'll be the first to admit that it actually sounds quite bad, but you might read it a couple times over. It's actually quite good.

 

[Saint]

While I don't agree with the direction that Jason Todd was placed in, a thought occurs... maybe he's grieving? As far as the Bat-family is concerned, after all, Bruce Wayne is dead. Maybe rather than hanging onto his moral convictions, like Dick does, Jason loses it when faced with a reality of a world without Bruce Wayne. And his desperation to fill the void that Batman left behind causes him to be blinded to his own morality. Sure, Jason and Bruce were at odds whenever he came back, but I'm sure there's still apart of Jason that respected him. Even idolized him.

Then again, Daniel didn't touch upon this - and opted for a far crappier explanation, so it's probably moot.

I won't be content with Jason losing his mind under any circumstances, but yes, there are ways it could have been done that would have at least been compelling or interesting.

I've been out of the loop on the Batbooks for about a year now- when did Batman become about sorcery and magic and mystical ****?

My favorite part about Batman was that there was none of that...now Batman is fighting the Devil? There are swords of sin and mystical suits, etc?

Someone clue me in, please.

-R

I've always enjoyed Morrison's ability to play Batman as part of the DCU, instead of just keeping him in the crime-story corner that is Gotham City on most days of the week. The DCU is a place full of magic and mad science, and logically that stuff is going to bleed into Batman's world. Obviously, Batman will always have his place, but it's not inappropriate for him to face the other elements of the universe, too. Morrison did this in JLA, too, and demonstrated an exceptional ability to make Batman function in the larger DCU, dispelling forever questions like "Why does the JLA even need Batman?"

In this instance, though, if you don't want to read it as being Batman versus the Devil, you don't have to. That's the way the story is played. Personally, I prefer to believe it was the devil, because I find the triumph of the rational human over mysticism and superstition to be satisfying personally and as a part of the Batman mythology. I appreciated Batman going down defeating the God of Evil deeply satisfying for the same reason.

 

[Drz]

Indeed Morrison is awesome, in his latest interview he talked about Dick & Damian co-op. The stories are about the funny light-hearted Dick with a rude disrespectful Robin who fears to to be left alone and there are some hints on we witnessing Damian selling his soul to the devil. We will see enemies from Batman #666 and theres alot of freaky ones out there. For those who can't stand Damian can enjoy "Batman" comic as that will be about inner monologues of Dick thinking how hes doing as Batman and so forth. Even Grant states how they can never be a Batman like Bruce Wayne but these two got their ups and downs.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Can't really agree with this part since the fans wanted him dead.

I never liked that. Fans read comics for the writers' good stories, not choose your own adventures.

Indeed Morrison is awesome, in his latest interview he talked about Dick & Damian co-op. The stories are about the funny light-hearted Dick with a rude disrespectful Robin who fears to to be left alone and there are some hints on we witnessing Damian selling his soul to the devil. We will see enemies from Batman #666 and theres alot of freaky ones out there. For those who can't stand Damian can enjoy "Batman" comic as that will be about inner monologues of Dick thinking how hes doing as Batman and so forth. Even Grant states how they can never be a Batman like Bruce Wayne but these two got their ups and downs.

So... This is Jason Todd but possibly worse than Jason Todd because he's not proven himself and he's a little ****ing crazying. Great.

 

[Drz]

But your forgetting his a kid and Dick is doing his best to train him. He hasn't been taught on normal values and stuff, the kid grew up with the league of shadows after all. :/