Batman Begins is the greatest Batman Film to me.

Discussion in 'Batman Begins' started by bestever23, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. macphisto96

    macphisto96 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2012
    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    0
    All three are great films and they form a whole. Bruce's story is not complete in Begins, nor is it in TDK. Though it wasn't designed at the outset to be a three film arc, Nolan was very effective in turning it into one. Part of that is how much TDKR owes to Begins.

    Begins is the most important of the films because it rescued the character in his filmic form. Batman & Robin left a sour taste in everyone's mouth. Batman Begins saw fewer tickets sold (though higher revenue) than Batman & Robin did on its opening weekend, though it did open on a Wednesday. But it had to be built up through word of mouth because I don't think people believed in Batman on film anymore.

    This left the door open for The Dark Knight. And while it did see increased interest due to Ledger's death (and it is very unfortunate that both of these last two Batman films have opened under clouds), Ledger's performance and the story would have driven it to double Batman Begins' take because that film set the stage. I think Batman Begins drew a lot of added fans in rentals, HBO viewings, and purchases so that people were willing to spend at the theater. It was all about Begins laying the groundwork.

    I love Batman Begins, but I do see it as part of the whole. TDKR makes Begins and TDK better and TDKR wouldn't exist without the other two.

    I still LOVE the power of Batman's first appearance and the sheer terror you can see in the thugs he's going after and then in Falcone himself. I love the origin of the Batsignal. And I love the Ra's Al Ghul twist that I didn't see coming the first time because I bought into Ducard. Heck, even the appearance of Zsasz gave me a big smile (scary, huh?).

    And watching it after TDKR is even better. Despite all the tragedy we do see in all three films, I'm left smiling because we see people rising above it - not just Bruce.

    Nolan made an entertaining and thought provoking trilogy that gives us an incredible character arc for Bruce Wayne. In doing so, he managed to relegate that other WB picture (under the New Line tag), Lord Of The Rings, into second place on the movie trilogy list IMHO. This is a more compact and more interesting work that accomplishes so much more than any other famous film trilogy. The amazing thing to me is that these weren't all filmed together and weren't conceived at the same time. LOTR was unique because it was really one big film, so the consistency was expected. This didn't happen Star Wars as Return Of The Jedi really changed tone quite a bit. The prequels had a tone and visual consistency, but ugh.

    I love all three, but Begins was the most important.
     
    #76
  2. conan69

    conan69 Cimmerian

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "Mr Mom" cracks at Keaton were VERY popular back in 89 from those who didnt like him in the part.
     
    #77
  3. Majik1387

    Majik1387 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    41,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well it was 1989, they didn't know any better....:oldrazz:
     
    #78
  4. uniqueweasel

    uniqueweasel Don't Drink and Bake

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    0
    And on the release of the film in 89' didn't most of those people eat humble pie, and have the Bat symbol everywhere!
     
    #79
  5. Valaquen

    Valaquen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2010
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with pretty much every point. Dawes was insufferable, the dialogue hammy, staged, and overladen with cheese, and Nolan has this tendency (also in TDK) of smacking you incessantly over the head with the themes (in case you missed 'em!) Caine and Freeman play fictionalised versions of themselves, and Bruce's thou-shall-not-kill rule seemed a little muddled, as his actions or inactions lead to numerous deaths (I don't think that that bound prisoner or any of the unconscious League members could have made it out of the exploding pagoda...). I also hate Nolan's blockbuster gags: how many times during a chase sequence does he have to cut away to someone sitting innocuously, before having the Tumbler/Batpod blare past them - cue shocked bystander face. He does this numerous times in both BB and TDK, and sometimes within the same sequence. I know he wants a chuckle from the audience but damn ...
    Saying that, the atmosphere was great (rain, smoke, and gloom) the corruption of the GPD was nice and gritty, Oldman is perfect, I always like to see Rutger Hauer, and I liked the batsuit.
     
    #80
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2012
  6. Cain

    Cain I Heart Amazons

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2005
    Messages:
    6,011
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeah I realized this after I saw TDKR again but this time preceded by the first 2 Nolan movies. Despite BB's flaws (and boy do I think it has many) I enjoy it much more than TDKR particularly because the character arcs are richer since they stick to the internal logic set within the film.

    There is no moment where you really feel things are contradicting themselves with the characters' actions like TDKR. It's very consistent as opposed to jumping around all over the place to the point that we go "WTF" like in TDKR.
     
    #81
  7. Alex Moon

    Alex Moon Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Peeps.

    To me, the first Batman from Tim Burton is the quintessial Batman movie.

    Only the Animated Series surpasses it but when it comes to "live" flicks, Burton is on top.

    Then, out of the three Nolan ones, Batman Begins is EASILY the BEST "Batman" Movie".

    Why ?

    For many reasons but mainly for the (keyword here) Batman

    It's the one Dark Knight flick that focuses the most on The Caped Crusader himself .

    It's the first and last true "origin story" for this super hero and it's an amazing journey from Gotham to Asia to Gotham City again.

    It's definitively the ultimate "Bruce Wayne" Flick as well.

    To me , the best Batman experience has to be about The Caped Crusader himself first and foremost.

    TDK gave way too much importance to the villain and I was appaled to see how people were considering The Joker as the legit "hero" of this one...

    TDR is also about Bane more than Batman himself.

    And I Don't find a frickin terrorist appealing the slightest.

    What I truly loved on BB is also the use of two villains which were never ever used in a Batman live stuff .

    Especially The Scarecrow.

    I love the fact that the villain uses the Arkham Asylum as his main target to weakness Batman and Gotham as a whole.

    The "fear" factor is also a huge plus to me.

    I love the mysticism of some images and scenes on it, I love how Batman is DOMINANT.

    He is the one in charge, he is the one who kicks asses and he is the one winning and standing TALL in the end.

    That's how any super hero movie should be as far as I'm concerned.

    Let's add ninjas (who doesn't like Ninjas ?) into the mix and some beautiful photography and stages and you get a movie that is, indeed, a masterpiece.

    BB is, for me, the one Nolan's Batman that can stand multiple viewings and It never gets old .

    Last but not least, it's also the only one of the three where I can stand Bale's voice as The Dark Knight.

    It works well on BB while it's extremely irritating and annoying on the other two (where he sounds like a guy with a serious case of asthma).

    Batman Begins >>> TDK + TDR
     
    #82
  8. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    17,997
    Likes Received:
    0
    Doesn't the '89 Batman focus too much on Joker too, though?
     
    #83
  9. TanneRain

    TanneRain Bane'd User

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2008
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    0
    The '89 film was just as much about the Joker as TDK was. In my opinion, either you like the Dark Knight Trilogy as a whole, or you don't. If you are looking at the three films as a story at least.
     
    #84
  10. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    49,576
    Likes Received:
    113
    Exactly my feelings on it :up:

    TDK didn't focus on Joker, Batman 1989 did. Everything revolved around him including Batman's origin was tied to him.
     
    #85
  11. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    17,997
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I definitely thought so, but it just seemed funny that someone would say they love '89 Batman while they grew tired of Joker "being the main focus" in TDK.
     
    #86
  12. Majik1387

    Majik1387 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    41,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Because compared to 89 Joker, TDK Joker reeked of horrible, horrible, plot-hole filled writing.
     
    #87
  13. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    49,576
    Likes Received:
    113
    You mean like announcing on public TV that you'll be at the Gotham parade at midnight to give free cash out, and there's no Cops there waiting for you when you arrive? Like being able to shoot the Batwing down with one shot using a gimmick long barrel gun? You mean like randomly climbing the Gotham cathedral on the spur of the moment and having henchmen stashed up there already?

    I like Batman 1989, but it all revolved around the Joker. The Joker got an origin story from Jack Napier to super villain, the Joker was after Vicki Vale, the Joker killed Batman's parents. The whole narrative was focused on the Joker. That's something that the movie was criticized over:

    http://destinyosbourne.hubpages.com/hub/the-batman

    Ledger's Joker had less screen time than Batman, Dent, and even Gordon. He was not the narrative focus. He wasn't even in the final showdown scene in the movie.

    Ledger created a memorable character through great performance. Nicholson dominated the story and screen time. I love Nicholson's Joker, but that's what he did.
     
    #88
  14. Anno_Domini

    Anno_Domini Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    17,997
    Likes Received:
    0
    :lmao:

    God that makes me love '89 Batman even more with the terrible writing with the final act.
     
    #89
  15. Valaquen

    Valaquen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2010
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Apparently that was scripted without Burton even knowing. They built the sets and during filming Nicholson was asking what was meant to be happening as he and Basinger went up the tower. Burton had to tell him that he didn't know.

    I re-watched B89 last night for the first time in a while and found the beginning to be very tight, gritty, gothic, and it has a nice angle on Batman - he's almost supernatural and Keaton plays him very cold and emotionless. Now and then his eyes flare with madness. I've always wondered if he deliberately dropped Napier... The middle of the film is less interesting, probably because the Vale-Wayne romance is a little contrived and the Joker himself is a little directionless. He has a plan but he's in it to sate his own narcissism and sadism (and Nicholson's Joker is very much a sadist, mutilating Alicia to satisfy an 'artistic' urge, etc. His narcissism is obvious from Nicholson's first scene), so there's no real mystery there, whereas in TDK (a film I don't even particularly enjoy) the Joker is always a step ahead, ducking and weaving and beguiling, which keeps the plot on the constant move. The last act of B89 picks up - much more excitement, and more wonderful toys, though Gotham's police are conspicuously absent during the parade, which is a mistake I think, because I really liked the corruption angle in the first part of the film. Despite this, Gotham's presented very well - the cops are corrupt, the mob rules, the city is financially bankrupt, its public officials ineffectual ... you can definitely see the template on which Batman Begins was built, or rather, since Begins was based on Year One, the template that Begins continued.
     
    #90
  16. GothamAlleys

    GothamAlleys Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    1,799
    Likes Received:
    0
    The absence of police is understandable imo and explainable. The police appeared exactly 11 minutes after Jokers float first appeared in the shot, and when they appeared they appeared in full force, with lights etc. Thats a very fast reaction time considering mobilization of the forces against horde of gangsters with machine guns and choppers, and considering that Gotham is huge. And Joker never revealed the location of the parade, if so, people would be lined up for money right away, same with cops and media. he just said hes gonna have a parade and give out money, without details. But thats a suybject thats been very much debated by detractors of the movie. I dont want to open Pandoras box again
     
    #91
  17. Fudgie

    Fudgie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,197
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think the whole movie has terrible writing. It's pretty boring to watch for me. I can barely make it past Joker shaking his booty to Prince in the museum.
     
    #92
  18. Shpati

    Shpati Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Begins was the best Batman movie ever.
     
    #93
  19. comicsuperhero

    comicsuperhero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Begins was the best IMO. It was so subtle and not in-your-face, and very intelligently made. It was fresh. It was a game changer. There was so much nuance in every character and it seemed that everyone were giving it their best (cough!Bale!cough!) Batman himself (or Bale's Batman) was his best in Begins and there was so much of Bruce and Batman - TDK and TDKR was more villainous and that's okay, but if you're a fan of Batman, you want more bats!!! It was symbolic and I can watch a hundred times and not get bored, which for me is the litmus test for a good movie. It's a classic film. The scene with his parents' death was the best in any movie, comic, cartoon EVER. The moment is iconic. When he looks upon the suit for the first time, WOW! The music, the scenery, the set, the actors, the direction, the script, the script, the script! Begins just knocked it out of the park and it's a pity that it made the least of the trilogy.
     
    #94
  20. Mach2Infinity

    Mach2Infinity Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2007
    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    6
    Hands down BB is my favourite. I think how much focus was given to Bruce Wayne and Batman was key here. I never understood how in the past, Batman was overlooked because he is a fascinating character, as is his particular crusade on crime.

    The quick-cut fights, the Tumbler, the exploration of guilt and anger, the corruption, the definition of a vigilante and symbol, the real meaning of justice etc. So many great things upon in the film. Where as in TDK, whilst it is a very good film it does sideline Bruce Wayne and Batman. And I have to say the Joker does steal the show whether you want to admit it not. People bang on about the film being the best but if it weren't for Ledger's Joker, the film would have suffered. Dent's arc was rushed and some of his actions a bit puzzling, such as his sudden personality switch when he kidnapped Thomas Schiff. I thought Gotham in TDK looked unrecognisable from the Gotham of BB. I really missed the Gotham set. Scarecrow was just tossed away like an afterthought and ironically, the Joker is all against order and those with plans yet he orchestrated the most complicated one! I thought the fight scenes looked too choreographed in the Penthouse scene.

    And thankfully Nolan concluded the series with TDKR. I always knew there would be a follow-up film as I couldn't be satisfied with the TDK. Batman's supposed to endure all hardship, how good is that message if you just end the series with him riding off on the Batpod?
     
    #95
  21. Gggg

    Gggg New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    rating batman movies is subjective and thus no one is wrong but from a writers point of view TDK would have to be the best film followed by TDR and just behind BB the reason being the following

    in any battle for divinity i.E good vs bad or superhero analogies the villain sets the plot and thus is the base of the story, yes the good guy needs to be defined but the bad guy even if its not implied is the main character as he sets the tempo and also provides a drastic change from the norm

    in shakespeare play Othello, iago was the main character

    in spiderman who ever is the respective villain in the episode is the main character but usually venom

    in batman its joker: the jokers character is the best defined and also sets a drastic confusion about true motivation i. E the jokers reason for existing is as a counter effect to batman, to challenge batman to bet batman but not to kill him the ultimate battle of order vs chaos

    ill leave TDR up to you, BB is a drama to an extent as it is a self realisation journey and not much of a superhero plot exept Ras whos reasons are an awsome plot establishment which worked for 2 movies TDR and BB

    that would have to make TDK the best movie

    look at it this way: when a cop arrests a women who murdered her husband would you be interested in why the cop arrested her or why she killed her husband you might be interested in how the cop arrested her but thats a sherlock holmes plot

    batman is joker
     
    #96
  22. Elevator Man

    Elevator Man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    3,726
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd agree with the original poster if this was the only Batman movie in existence, but it isn't. Anyways "the greatest batman film" hasn't been made yet, imo.
     
    #97
  23. Majik1387

    Majik1387 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Messages:
    41,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'd put TDKR tied at #1 with Returns for my fave Batman movie, with BB in my top 5. TDK is probably one of the worst Batman movies, only slightly better than Schumacher's movies and the 60's movie.
     
    #98
  24. Elevator Man

    Elevator Man Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    3,726
    Likes Received:
    0
    I actually enjoy TDK a heck of a lot more than BB.
     
    #99
  25. Fudgie

    Fudgie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,197
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quoted for truth.
     
    #100

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"