Batman did not create the villians!

Spider-Bat

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I am so tired of hearing that Batman's the reason why the villians exist. It pops up now and again in comics and on these boards, and such, and I have had it.

As it was said in TAS episode Trial, Batman exists because of them, not the other way 'round.

Batman was created because of an evil man. If they weren't there, there wouldn't be a need for him and others such as Robin and Nightwing, and those villians all have their own origins as to why they came into being.

I hate when it is suggested otherwise.
 
You are right. But it's the "modern psychobabble". Heroes cannot be heroes today. It's a shame.
 
They did become more theatrical because of Batmans' appearance.
 
I am so tired of hearing that Batman's the reason why the villians exist. It pops up now and again in comics and on these boards, and such, and I have had it.

As it was said in TAS episode Trial, Batman exists because of them, not the other way 'round.

Batman was created because of an evil man. If they weren't there, there wouldn't be a need for him and others such as Robin and Nightwing, and those villians all have their own origins as to why they came into being.

I hate when it is suggested otherwise.

And I hate it when people can't stand opposing opinions.

Saying that Batman created his villains is an interpretation. But so is your claim that the villain created Batman. It's two different ways to look at it, both interesting in their own way, and saying these villains absolutely DO NOT exist because of Batman is a very limiting viewpoint.

I personally like the idea that these villains are a product of Batman's existence. Like it or not, there is a pretty convincing argument to back it up. Where were all the costumed supervillains before Batman showed up? There weren't any. The bad guys in Gotham were gangsters and crooked cops. So yes, there were already evil men in Gotham, but it is intriguing to think that Batman triggered an escalation.

He may not have created his villains, but he certainly made his villains more creative.
 
Well, if you look at the origins of the villains, Batman didn't have anything to do with 95% of them. When he first meets them, they're already costumed criminals.
 
Well, if you look at the origins of the villains, Batman didn't have anything to do with 95% of them. When he first meets them, they're already costumed criminals.

Well, Batman isn't DIRECTLY responsible, of course. But his presence seems to draw these costumed wackos out of the woodwork.
 
Well, Batman isn't DIRECTLY responsible, of course. But his presence seems to draw these costumed wackos out of the woodwork.

Seems being the operative word :cwink:

We don't have any concrete proof that these wackos come to Gotham because of Batman. Most of them are already established residents of Gotham.
 
I think Kevin Smith put it best...

All of these individuals fell pray to tragic circumstances that afforded them to psychologically spin off into an alternate personality.

For Bruce, that meant becoming an urban soldier fighting for the good of society...while for others it meant becoming an eccentric criminal.

CFE
 
I am so tired of hearing that Batman's the reason why the villians exist.

Batman IS the reason why these villains exist. Kane and Finger created Batman and he needed villains, just like every other superhero. Voila. The villains are there because of Batman. :oldrazz:

It pops up now and again in comics and on these boards, and such, and I have had it.

Oh, boohoo. Well if it pops up just every now and then, there's really no reason to get yourself in a tizzy.

As it was said in TAS episode Trial, Batman exists because of them, not the other way 'round.

Ever notice how Joker never had his say in that episode? TAS somewhat ties in with Burton's films (Penguin's appearance, for example), and in B89, Batman "dropped" Joker into the chemicals. Which is why Joker's origin was never mentioned--that would've ruined the entire purpose of the episode.

One villain is all it takes for a point to go flying out the window.

Batman was created because of an evil man. If they weren't there, there wouldn't be a need for him and others such as Robin and Nightwing, and those villians all have their own origins as to why they came into being.

I hate when it is suggested otherwise.

So much anger. *shakes head*
 
yeah, while Batman didnt make anyone evil (except maybe the Joker) he did, IMHO, cause them to amp everything up with the costumes and theatrics.
 
Before Batman, Gotham wasn't exactly plagued with colorful costumed supervillains. It was plagued with mafiosi.
 
In the DC universe there were superheroes and supervillains in Gotham City before the Batman appeared. Remember Alan Scott?
 
In the DC universe there were superheroes and supervillains in Gotham City before the Batman appeared. Remember Alan Scott?

Yes in both the pre-crisis and post crisis DC universe Alan Scott is from Gotham City. But in the pre-crisis universe he incountered most of the same villians that Batman did. It wasn't till post-crisis that he got some of his own. But truthfully he only had one major costumed villian and that was The Reaper (once again a Batman villian as well). Mostly Alan Scott battled the mob.
 
Seems being the operative word :cwink:

We don't have any concrete proof that these wackos come to Gotham because of Batman. Most of them are already established residents of Gotham.
It's not a thing you can prove, Ock. It's not a cold, hard fact. As Keyser said, it's an interpretation and an interesting take on the character and universe.
 
Seems being the operative word :cwink:

We don't have any concrete proof that these wackos come to Gotham because of Batman. Most of them are already established residents of Gotham.

Bane came Gotham for the express reason of kicking Batman's ass. I'm sure they're others who did the same. King of the hill-type s#it.
 
Good thread topic.

I'm going to ignore the fact that Batman and his villains are symbolic. For them to have any memorable value in the story they need outfits or a unique personality. Lets just pretend the comicbooks are a real world. Its a bit dumb to over-analyse these things and apply real world logic to these characters (like I'm about to do), especially since their entire existence is to be entertaining, but what the hell, its fun.

Okay, we could argue they're responding to the concept of masked identities when they see a caped crusader in their city. Seeing some dude dressed up as a Bat and having various Bat-themed gimmicks in his arsenal and Bat-puns in his vocabulary would inspire any crook with a mind for theatrics to take on their own gimmicked personality, especially if it makes you feel empowered, boosts your confidence, or feeds your ego (just how many of these villains were meek losers before they took on their criminal exploits? Exactly. Even Bruce Wayne is just a spoilt wealthy child who enjoys wallowing in his grief and wants to convincing himself that his predicament is unique (especially since not having to work gives him a lot of time to mope around the mansion). Masks do give you a sense of empowerment. Batman is in the same boat as his villains and he's in a cycle he will never escape, just as they are.

Jervis Tech may enjoy Alice and Wonderland and have various mind-control equipment, but the extra theatrical step to join them together seems to respond to the presense of the costumed hyper-theatrical Batman. He provides a precedent for it, but the crimes were likely to happen anyway (he might have just ended up date-raping Alice without the gimmicks).

Does that make Batman responsible? Not really, he just inspires the criminals with a useful symbol to channel their natural drives, the same as if they were inspired by Al Capone or anything else really. In the same way that the individual bat Bruce saw one night outside his mansion window is hardly what transformed him into a vigilante, even if it inspired his particular gimmick.

It may depend on how much the concept of masked villainy/heroism is inherent in superhero comic societies. There seem to be plenty of hints which suggest that Batman etc are just the recent examples in a long history of masked superheroism/villainy. In the Hush storyarc I remember there being sequences with a young Bruce watching heroes fight it up in the skies above Gotham, and even BTAS had the Grey Ghost (voiced by Adam West no less), and was a direct inspiration for Bruce to go the costumed route. If egotistical superheroes and supervillains are a fundamental part of these societies, then the individual Batman can hardly be blamed (he'd be just as much of a victim as the villains would claim to be).

Either way, their birth names should give it away. Joe Kerr (if you agree with that name), Victor Frieze, Maxie Zeus, they seem like they were all conditioned at a very young age to take on their particular gimmicked crimes. It'd be something so finely mixed into who they are since they were children. Its fate. Otherwise Joe Kerr would have become a humorless botanist enamored with plants and calling himself "The Foliage Freak", or Dr Freeze would fall into a inconviently placed vat of fire and only survive by walking around in a suit filled with fire and firing fire from a firegun. Batman may just have been a gentle push down the hill they were already hurtling down (ignoring the fact that these names are tailor-made for their powers... remember, I'm pretending they're real people).

I'll definately say that I think Batman helps to feed that psychosis, but he's just a very willing audience. The Riddler would still be leaving Riddles for whoever will listen, Joker would announce his crimes, Two-face would only knock-off places with two/double/twin/pair/gemini/couple in the title. All of their crimes are for attention not for personal gain, and deep down they want to be caught and helped (subconsciously. anybody who is serious about not getting caught would never leave a clue or announce their crime). If its not Batman, they'd focus their attentions on Commissioner Gordon or their parents or the mailman or anybody else who seems worthy to the challenge. That, or they'd manufacture their own hero (which is in part what they're doing when they torture the hell out of innocent victims, they're attempting to create their own nemesis).

Taking Batman out of the equation might send them into a melancholy for a while, but these villains are natural performers, and they'd find an audience soon enough, even if they have to lose the outfits and gimmicks.

No, Batman did not create these villains. His image may have inspired them, but under the circumstances they were all likely to commit the same or similar crimes due to deeply ingrained inability to empathise, accompanied by deep-set insecurities which mean they require people pay attention to them and recogise their greatness and talents (often wrongly imagined) by force.
 
Batman triggered an escalation.
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cause and effect

though not all of them might have come into being because of Batman, he certainly didn't help.
 
Good thread topic.

I'm going to ignore the fact that Batman and his villains are symbolic. For them to have any memorable value in the story they need outfits or a unique personality. Lets just pretend the comicbooks are a real world. Its a bit dumb to over-analyse these things and apply real world logic to these characters (like I'm about to do), especially since their entire existence is to be entertaining, but what the hell, its fun.

Okay, we could argue they're responding to the concept of masked identities when they see a caped crusader in their city. Seeing some dude dressed up as a Bat and having various Bat-themed gimmicks in his arsenal and Bat-puns in his vocabulary would inspire any crook with a mind for theatrics to take on their own gimmicked personality, especially if it makes you feel empowered, boosts your confidence, or feeds your ego (just how many of these villains were meek losers before they took on their criminal exploits? Exactly. Even Bruce Wayne is just a spoilt wealthy child who enjoys wallowing in his grief and wants to convincing himself that his predicament is unique (especially since not having to work gives him a lot of time to mope around the mansion). Masks do give you a sense of empowerment. Batman is in the same boat as his villains and he's in a cycle he will never escape, just as they are.

Jervis Tech may enjoy Alice and Wonderland and have various mind-control equipment, but the extra theatrical step to join them together seems to respond to the presense of the costumed hyper-theatrical Batman. He provides a precedent for it, but the crimes were likely to happen anyway (he might have just ended up date-raping Alice without the gimmicks).

Does that make Batman responsible? Not really, he just inspires the criminals with a useful symbol to channel their natural drives, the same as if they were inspired by Al Capone or anything else really. In the same way that the individual bat Bruce saw one night outside his mansion window is hardly what transformed him into a vigilante, even if it inspired his particular gimmick.

It may depend on how much the concept of masked villainy/heroism is inherent in superhero comic societies. There seem to be plenty of hints which suggest that Batman etc are just the recent examples in a long history of masked superheroism/villainy. In the Hush storyarc I remember there being sequences with a young Bruce watching heroes fight it up in the skies above Gotham, and even BTAS had the Grey Ghost (voiced by Adam West no less), and was a direct inspiration for Bruce to go the costumed route. If egotistical superheroes and supervillains are a fundamental part of these societies, then the individual Batman can hardly be blamed (he'd be just as much of a victim as the villains would claim to be).

Either way, their birth names should give it away. Joe Kerr (if you agree with that name), Victor Frieze, Maxie Zeus, they seem like they were all conditioned at a very young age to take on their particular gimmicked crimes. It'd be something so finely mixed into who they are since they were children. Its fate. Otherwise Joe Kerr would have become a humorless botanist enamored with plants and calling himself "The Foliage Freak", or Dr Freeze would fall into a inconviently placed vat of fire and only survive by walking around in a suit filled with fire and firing fire from a firegun. Batman may just have been a gentle push down the hill they were already hurtling down (ignoring the fact that these names are tailor-made for their powers... remember, I'm pretending they're real people).

I'll definately say that I think Batman helps to feed that psychosis, but he's just a very willing audience. The Riddler would still be leaving Riddles for whoever will listen, Joker would announce his crimes, Two-face would only knock-off places with two/double/twin/pair/gemini/couple in the title. All of their crimes are for attention not for personal gain, and deep down they want to be caught and helped (subconsciously. anybody who is serious about not getting caught would never leave a clue or announce their crime). If its not Batman, they'd focus their attentions on Commissioner Gordon or their parents or the mailman or anybody else who seems worthy to the challenge. That, or they'd manufacture their own hero (which is in part what they're doing when they torture the hell out of innocent victims, they're attempting to create their own nemesis).

Taking Batman out of the equation might send them into a melancholy for a while, but these villains are natural performers, and they'd find an audience soon enough, even if they have to lose the outfits and gimmicks.

No, Batman did not create these villains. His image may have inspired them, but under the circumstances they were all likely to commit the same or similar crimes due to deeply ingrained inability to empathise, accompanied by deep-set insecurities which mean they require people pay attention to them and recogise their greatness and talents (often wrongly imagined) by force.
well said and as for the bold part an example is Joker in TDKR. He was just docile and rather calm until Batman came out of retirement.
 
well said and as for the bold part an example is Joker in TDKR. He was just docile and rather calm until Batman came out of retirement.

Isn't that at odds with the idea that they'd still be villains though? In DKR, the Joker seems to only exist to mess with Batman, when Batman isn't there, the Joker isn't there.
That characterisation of the Joker totally works for DKR, I just don't fully agree with that way of presenting him, since at his core the Joker is a guy who validates his superiority and reaffirms his self-worth through the attention he recieves (he doesn't draw a distinction between 'good' and 'bad' attention, thats why he can swing between murderous criminal to silly harmless prankster). Batman thwarts those attempts by proving that the Joker is not superior to him (by stopping the crime). The Joker therefore lives to try to outdo Batman by committing crimes which he wants Batman to TRY to thwart but to fail (even if its just failing to capture Joker at the end). Take away Batman, Joker would lament the fact that he wasn't the one to 'deliver the punchline' or to finally 'beat' the Batman, he'd lament that "its too easy now", but I personally don't believe that that particular opposition is necessary to the Joker's deep down need to prove that he's better than everybody else. He'd continue to commit his crimes until he found another worthy opponent (he'd move to Metropolis).
 
I think over a period of time he is obsessed with The Batman, like how he called Terry in Return of the Joker a fake and just a punk. He has this kind of weird obsession with only Batman. Most other superheros are really low on his priority list, but his weird sick compulsion is with Batman thats why I think Batman is really important with the creation of Joker.
 
I think it's a combination of both. If Batman was never around I think there would be LESS costumed psycho's, but in a world filled with superpowered people there will always be psycho's. Batman takes out a lot of threats but I also think that some villains are only around because of him, like the Joker.
 

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