The Dark Knight Batman No More?

[shapeshifter]

I saw that scene where he is holding the cowl and wondered if he was going to have a superhero sequel doubt moment.
god dammit I hate that stupid plot point. Superman did it in Superman II, Spider-man did it in Spider-man 2, and both parts of those movies sucked for having done it. That 45 minutes where parker chose not to be spider-man almost made me leave the theater. I really hope it does not happen here.
Don't make Batman whine and doubt, and cry and all of that ****. Its been done, and it sucked.

 

[xero1186]

I like to think Gordon smashes the Bat-signal due to popular demand over him. It also appears to happen close to the funeral scene.

 

[shapeshifter]

I think opposite will happen. Before filming began I remember hearing that Bruce would struggle with his losing his identity, that Wayne would become more Batman and less Bruce. Also we heard one of the Nolans I believe say that this movie would take Batman into a darker area, were he might have to cross the line.

Therefore I think that the conversation he is having with Alfred has more so to do with his methods, i.e. killing the Joker.

Perhaps some of the recent vigilantes are taking lethal action, and Bruce is now contemplating adopting their method.

The Joker knows this and believes the most effect way of defeating Batman is to bring Batman down to his level, to make him a murderer.

i.e. "Come on, hit me!"

By Batman killing the Joker it gives reason for people to believe that he is no different then the Joker. Which I am sure people are already thinking, which is probably why Gordon smashes the Bat signal.

So I think that is what that scene is about, (the Alfred/ Bruce scene) and not about Bats hanging up the tights.

you think that was Gordon?

 

[Matt]

I think opposite will happen. Before filming began I remember hearing that Bruce would struggle with his losing his identity, that Wayne would become more Batman and less Bruce. Also we heard one of the Nolans I believe say that this movie would take Batman into a darker area, were he might have to cross the line.

Therefore I think that the conversation he is having with Alfred has more so to do with his methods, i.e. killing the Joker.

Perhaps some of the recent vigilantes are taking lethal action, and Bruce is now contemplating adopting their method.

The Joker knows this and believes the most effect way of defeating Batman is to bring Batman down to his level, to make him a murderer.

i.e. "Come on, hit me!"

By Batman killing the Joker it gives reason for people to believe that he is no different then the Joker. Which I am sure people are already thinking, which is probably why Gordon smashes the Bat signal.

So I think that is what that scene is about, (the Alfred/ Bruce scene) and not about Bats hanging up the tights.

That to me would be an awesome subplot and the best outcome. I remember during the Hush story line, when Batman was about to kill Joker and Gordon held Bats at gunpoint and threatened to kill him to perserve The Joker's life. To me, that would be an awesome climax.

 

[xero1186]

I saw that scene where he is holding the cowl and wondered if he was going to have a superhero sequel doubt moment.
god dammit I hate that stupid plot point. Superman did it in Superman II, Spider-man did it in Spider-man 2, and both parts of those movies sucked for having done it. That 45 minutes where parker chose not to be spider-man almost made me leave the theater. I really hope it does not happen here.
Don't make Batman whine and doubt, and cry and all of that ****. Its been done, and it sucked.

Yeah, I agree. Sadly, the only time I've seen this plot work was for X-men and the "cure." Though I DO NOT think the movie [X-3] pulled it off.

 

[Axtech]

That to me would be an awesome subplot and the best outcome. I remember during the Hush story line, when Batman was about to kill Joker and Gordon held Bats at gunpoint and threatened to kill him to perserve The Joker's life. To me, that would be an awesome climax.

That would be cool, but I wonder if they could pull it off. I mean, in this case, he'd be pushed to the edge more by his immaturity in the Batman role (Joker being the catalyst that causes him to first reconsider his "one rule"). Whereas in Hush, he was pushed to the edge by the Joker himself, and everything he'd done over the decades since they first met.

 

[antonydelfini]

I really think that this is a great character arc for Batman. And for those saying that this is cliche', every superhero should have a story when they are forced to rethink their existence. It just adds to their legend, it's epic, and it's always fun to see. If the execution is right, this Batman no more will not come out as same old same old.

 

[batman11]

you think that was Gordon?

It is Gordon.

 

[antonydelfini]

I saw that scene where he is holding the cowl and wondered if he was going to have a superhero sequel doubt moment.
god dammit I hate that stupid plot point. Superman did it in Superman II, Spider-man did it in Spider-man 2, and both parts of those movies sucked for having done it. That 45 minutes where parker chose not to be spider-man almost made me leave the theater. I really hope it does not happen here.
Don't make Batman whine and doubt, and cry and all of that ****. Its been done, and it sucked.

iT'S ALL ABOUT THE EXECUTION GUYS. Joker vs. Batman has been done before also. Does that mean it's going to suck? Because it's been done before? It's all about the execution.

Now if Batman is having trouble with being Batman because of a lady (like Suerman II), or because he wants to have a normal life (Like Spider-man 2) , then that is the time it'll be the same old same old.

And BTW, although you loath Spider-man 2, many people like it, the general audience loved it, the comic book fanboys (like me) like it, the critics loved it. So you reall can't use Spidey 2's plot as your argument.

 

[HUMANIMAL]

I think opposite will happen. Before filming began I remember hearing that Bruce would struggle with his losing his identity, that Wayne would become more Batman and less Bruce. Also we heard one of the Nolans I believe say that this movie would take Batman into a darker area, were he might have to cross the line.

Therefore I think that the conversation he is having with Alfred has more so to do with his methods, i.e. killing the Joker.

Perhaps some of the recent vigilantes are taking lethal action, and Bruce is now contemplating adopting their method.

The Joker knows this and believes the most effect way of defeating Batman is to bring Batman down to his level, to make him a murderer.

i.e. "Come on, hit me!"

By Batman killing the Joker it gives reason for people to believe that he is no different then the Joker. Which I am sure people are already thinking, which is probably why Gordon smashes the Bat signal.

So I think that is what that scene is about, (the Alfred/ Bruce scene) and not about Bats hanging up the tights.

agreed....it will certainly come to this ....he wants to be different then the ones he fights but by killing them hes also just a psycho.....as if he would...he would loose his creditability.... but till this point other things also have to turn out before he isnt only seen as the saviour he'd like to be

 

[Syncos]

That is what I got from it to.

The idea explored in this thread is far to much like Spider-man 2 and doesn't mesh well with what we know as good as this one does.

We know that Joker threatens to kill a bunch of people on Gotham's "A-list" unless he has Batman handed to him on a silver platter. I think knowing that and watching the trailer it is clear that your assessment is right.

This being the case, I'm guessing the discussion with alfred "What would you have me do" is Bruce hesitating giving himself up to the Joker. But who knows.

 

[ab38416]

Is it me or this is looking more and more like THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS graphic novel? I mean, Batman appears and there is a very violent reaction. Joker reacts, the gangs react, the government reacts, the police reacts, Batman wannabes... etc. and all negative and violently. The title of the movie seems to me more like a crusader knight making a war for personal motives and then the whole background reacting against him.

I instantly thought of DKR too.

I see the 3rd one going a DKR route too. With Two-Face mirroring Bruce's attempt to reconcile his own duality.

 

[ab38416]

I think opposite will happen. Before filming began I remember hearing that Bruce would struggle with his losing his identity, that Wayne would become more Batman and less Bruce. Also we heard one of the Nolans I believe say that this movie would take Batman into a darker area, were he might have to cross the line.

Therefore I think that the conversation he is having with Alfred has more so to do with his methods, i.e. killing the Joker.

Perhaps some of the recent vigilantes are taking lethal action, and Bruce is now contemplating adopting their method.

The Joker knows this and believes the most effect way of defeating Batman is to bring Batman down to his level, to make him a murderer.

i.e. "Come on, hit me!"

By Batman killing the Joker it gives reason for people to believe that he is no different then the Joker. Which I am sure people are already thinking, which is probably why Gordon smashes the Bat signal.

So I think that is what that scene is about, (the Alfred/ Bruce scene) and not about Bats hanging up the tights.

 

[The Guard]

I'm wondering if perhaps The Joker has a death wish in THE DARK KNIGHT.

 

[Nirvana]

I like this theory, makes quite a bit of sense. Maybe him hanging up the cowl could be why the signal is destroyed...

 

[Kargo Warrior]

And Spider-Man copied Superman.

That storyline is straight from Spidey's comics,some 15 years before Superman 2.

 

[Hole Shot]

That to me would be an awesome subplot and the best outcome. I remember during the Hush story line, when Batman was about to kill Joker and Gordon held Bats at gunpoint and threatened to kill him to perserve The Joker's life. To me, that would be an awesome climax.

Given that Batman being like "this is the last straw, I'm going to finally kill you Joker" and then spares him is a pretty common occurence in the comics, I think we'll get something like that. It's still a fresh idea to bring to film.

Just hope they don't have Joker do something lame and kill himself like DKR.

 

[xero1186]

Given that Batman being like "this is the last straw, I'm going to finally kill you Joker" and then spares him is a pretty common occurence in the comics, I think we'll get something like that. It's still a fresh idea to bring to film.

Just hope they don't have Joker do something lame and kill himself like DKR.

That would be lame if it was done in TDK but in no way was it lame in the dark knight returns. He snapped his own neck!! How is that not awesome!?

 

[HopeOfTheFuture]

indeed, read something about

Spoiler

joker sending bomb into news station

Joker has no interest in having Bats' identity revealed

Why not? Wouldn't it be a perfect way to weaken your oponent?


Btw, about Gordon smashing the batsignal. Do you think he could do it because of personal reasons (like familiymembers being killed by the Joker)?

 

[Frank Noir]

Like others have said, he seems to be pushed by an angry mob to smash the Bat-signal. He considers Batman a friend. I don't think he would do it voluntarily.

 

[Phaser]

I think opposite will happen. Before filming began I remember hearing that Bruce would struggle with his losing his identity, that Wayne would become more Batman and less Bruce. Also we heard one of the Nolans I believe say that this movie would take Batman into a darker area, were he might have to cross the line.

Therefore I think that the conversation he is having with Alfred has more so to do with his methods, i.e. killing the Joker.

Perhaps some of the recent vigilantes are taking lethal action, and Bruce is now contemplating adopting their method.

The Joker knows this and believes the most effect way of defeating Batman is to bring Batman down to his level, to make him a murderer.

i.e. "Come on, hit me!"

By Batman killing the Joker it gives reason for people to believe that he is no different then the Joker. Which I am sure people are already thinking, which is probably why Gordon smashes the Bat signal.

So I think that is what that scene is about, (the Alfred/ Bruce scene) and not about Bats hanging up the tights.

I think you're dead wrong on this one. Bruce contemplating outright killing The Joker completely nullifies the one aspect that Nolan worked so hard to establish in Begins - that Batman is no executioner. I'm sure what Nolan meant by taking Batman into "darker territories" was that this time the repercussions will be far more severe, forcing him to rethink if he really is a force of good for the city considering how things have started to go from bad to worse ever since he arrived.

Other posters in this thread got it right:

Does anyone even pay attention?

"People are dying. What would you have me do?"

It's clear that Bruce hesitates because the existence of Batman now somehow puts the people of Gotham at risk (in that Batman's enemies are targeting innocents to get to him), the very people he swore an oath to protect. That also might explain Gordon smashing the Batsignal, signifying Batman has become a menace to the city and that it no longer wants him - exactly what Alfred meant by "you could be the outcast". It's very much different that the usual Superman/Spider-Man 2 dilemma where the hero gives it all up for personal rather than altruistic reasons. But in the case of TDK, Bruce has second thoughts because the result of his actions is now conflicting with his purpose as a savior of the city.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Batman'll never quit to "just have a normal life". In fact, TDK might show Bruce becoming so obsessed with his Bat persona, that the public might deem him a menace. Also, the Joker mainly commits crimes to draw out Batman. Batman is the embodiment of rational and logical thinking (in the Joker's mind) and as such the anarchist in him cannot help but defy this force for order.

In essence, if there were no Batman, there would be no Joker. I guess because of these reasons, Bruce might consider hanging up his cowl temporarily.

I think there is something clear and obvious we're all missing here and I also think it's an interesting dynamic if explored.

Joker is basically a serial killer/terrorist in this film. I think Nolan and Co. may be drawing -- non-politically -- from the current terror situation like they did with the fear situation in the world for Begins.

Joker is basically a result of Batman's war on crime. The escalating nature of his activities have forced the mob...and others...to embrace methods that are no longer wholly controllable by the GCPD or even the National Guard. The Mob has said, "if you play this way, we'll play this way..." Add to this the reckless and arrogant attacks of the Batman wannabes and it places the public in a place where Batman is no longer wanted, needed, or desired. He becomes a focal point of blame.

Then you have Joker, waging his crazy war under the banner of Batman's existence. So when Bruce says, "People are dying, what would you have me do?" He's saying People are dying because Joker wants to get to me, what would you have me do, continue to be Batman and perpetuate the Joker's reign of terror? Also, I imagine the public will want Batman to die/disappear/give-up as well. So Batman's doubt is thus meshed with this Joker freak who's holding the city hostage under his decision to lay down Batman. This makes Alfred's dialogue all the more bold and inspiring, and perhaps even reflects Alfred's military background:

"Endure. You can be the outcast. You make the choice that no one else will face. The right choice. Gotham needs you."

Bruce needs to endure the bad, keep up the mantle of the bat, despite the fear and doubt of the city, he must be a lone outcast that rises to do what is right and fight the crime and the Joker. While the city's turned against him, while Gordon is smashing the bat-signal because what he feared has come true...Batman's basically saying **** you all, buck up, grow some balls, and do what's right and fight crime.

That's actually an amazingly dramatic situation for the hero to be in -- and a very interesting take on the hero who stops being a hero and then must come back again to be it. It also, to me, being that Bruce does endure and continues to be Batman despite the terrors being committed in his name, more of a bad ass that is demanding of Gotham what he demands of himself: the stregnth and will to endure tragedy and stand on the principle of having a safe, terror and crime free Gotham that's not belonging to the criminal and corrupt.

Well, it's completely different.

We've never seen a superhero have to grapple with the idea that his heroic choices are actually PRODUCING BAD not GOOD. And we've never had a villian that'd exploit that to his benefit.

Batman Forever sees Bruce put down the cowl because he's obtaining closure over his parent's death.

This sees Batman having to box up his vengence and rage for the sake of the people in Gotham. Missing the point however that by giving in he's doing exactly what Joker wants.

This whole idea of believing in things, in Batman or Harvey Dent, stems from the idea that terror is much more believable because we feel it. Hope is a much vaguer emotion.

Batman is being forced to put down his cape and cowl. Not choosing to. Gotham is spiralling out of his control. The wannabes are bad, the bad are worse, and the worse are becoming Jokers. It's a compelling point that has to give Bruce pause, especially when the Comissioner himself is killed..."People are dying..."

I just love the fact that it's Alfred, the one who was afraid Batman would consume Bruce, that says, "You need to endure it, toughen up, and embrace the beast inside of you because now more than ever Gotham needs it."

This is a much, much different slant on a superhero tale than we've ever seen cinematically. I can't recall one instance where the hero is FORCED to quit under compulsing from the villian driving the city into the ground.

See, now, when the hero re-decides to be the hero, it's not like Superman or Spider-Man where it was like' Yeah, they realized the error of their ways and are back!" And that was a great feeling. Now imagine when it's "Yes! He just said **** you to everyone who doubted him and is going to kick some ass." It's a much more agressive and war-like stance. If this is where they go, I love it. A war-like Batman. That's what we need. A Batman that accepts that they'll be casualities but ploughs on because the principle of fighting is more important than the principle of winning.

Also, what's interesting, is that Joker is turned to by the mob because of Batman. Probably for this very reason: turn Gotham into a hellhole for Batman and make the people hate him. But I'm fairly certain taht Nolan's Joker is no puppet and quickly dispatches the mob as well, aiming for complete and utter anarchy.

I mean, look at it:

You have chaos on the streets. A-listers being killed. The Comissioner being killed. The Mayor killed or almost killed. A hospital blown up. A massive bank destroyed. Semi-trucks flipping up in the streets. Gotham has gone to hell. They blow up a mall. Joker gets cops to flip out. He possibly kills Rachel Dawes. Harvey Dent gets disfigured. Fundraisers being crashed. Wannabes taken hostage. News stations being attacked. Reporters being killed. All this is going on due to the arrival of the Joker....

Batman's only option is to declare war, a principled war, but a war nonetheless.

 

[Jokers_Wild]

Like others have said, he seems to be pushed by an angry mob to smash the Bat-signal. He considers Batman a friend. I don't think he would do it voluntarily.

In the footage you see with the IMAX prologue, it definitely looks like the signal is being smashed under compulsion and reserve. There does not appear to be any desire to do this act. I'd bet $ that Gordon is forced to because public opinion has swayed against Batman. The Gotham Times newspaper we received made it clear at that point, Batman was a very popular figure and the politicians were afraid to prosecute or even comment on him. I believe the Joker through his deeds, squarely places the blame on Batman as to why he exists and is doing the horrible things he is doing: "you've changed things...forever...there's no going back. See, to them, you're just a freak...like me."

The Joker is talking about how the public opinion has been turned against Batman, causing Bruce to contemplate whether Batman should even exist anymore. I love that opening dialogue, because it's so classic: the Joker is playing mind games with Batman, trying to make him believe that he is no different from the criminals he fights, that he is ultimately responsible for what Joker is doing, and that he should just give in. That is my take on it.

 

[shapeshifter]

iT'S ALL ABOUT THE EXECUTION GUYS. Joker vs. Batman has been done before also. Does that mean it's going to suck? Because it's been done before? It's all about the execution.

Now if Batman is having trouble with being Batman because of a lady (like Suerman II), or because he wants to have a normal life (Like Spider-man 2) , then that is the time it'll be the same old same old.

And BTW, although you loath Spider-man 2, many people like it, the general audience loved it, the comic book fanboys (like me) like it, the critics loved it. So you reall can't use Spidey 2's plot as your argument.

the hell I can't
I'm speaking to the 3% of the population that saw that movie the same way I did.
If they spider-man 2 this movie I'll be horrified.

 

[Jokers_Wild]

Heres a big spoiler...the commisioner is murdered by the Joker dressed up as batman..

Its in the trailer..hes talking to the commisioner when he says why so serious..

take a look at the outfit hes waering..its the same cape trech coat as the batman hanging from the window..

The Jokers wearing one of the vigilante batman outfits and kilss the commioner...

LOL why so serious..

I'm sure if the police and public thought Batman killed the Commissioner, then yeah, I'd say that would turn them against him!

 

[Eggyman]

In the footage you see with the IMAX prologue, it definitely looks like the signal is being smashed under compulsion and reserve. There does not appear to be any desire to do this act. I'd bet $ that Gordon is forced to because public opinion has swayed against Batman. The Gotham Times newspaper we received made it clear at that point, Batman was a very popular figure and the politicians were afraid to prosecute or even comment on him. I believe the Joker through his deeds, squarely places the blame on Batman as to why he exists and is doing the horrible things he is doing: "you've changed things...forever...there's no going back. See, to them, you're just a freak...like me."

The Joker is talking about how the public opinion has been turned against Batman, causing Bruce to contemplate whether Batman should even exist anymore. I love that opening dialogue, because it's so classic: the Joker is playing mind games with Batman, trying to make him believe that he is no different from the criminals he fights, that he is ultimately responsible for what Joker is doing, and that he should just give in. That is my take on it.

This bit of dialogue reminds me so much of what Green Goblin In Spider-Man 1 after he drugs him. Not exactly in the words he uses, but in the way he is trying to twist the hero's mind.