Ben Affleck or Christian Bale?

[bbasher]

affleck. A batman who quits is not batman.

thank you!

 

[The Joker]

Affleck. A Batman who quits is not Batman.

Is that why Affleck's Batman is based on Dark Knight Returns Batman? A Batman who quit for 10 years

 

[titansupes]

That was a reason too. But you can't say that Rachel had nothing to do with it either.

He can say that, because she didn't.

Bruce stopped being Batman because he wasn't needed anymore (though he still had the burning desire to be Batman-- which is part of what shatters his life in the next eight years)-- he set that aside for Gotham's greater good.

Without Batman, Bruce put his focus and desire to do good into Wayne Enterprises. When he discovered that his pet project could easily be turned into a weapon of mass destruction.

Seemingly unable to do good for Gotham (and with no Batman to vent through), Bruce retreats even further. Rachel is the reason he never moved on with a personal/romantic life, and never tried to build a family of his own. It all leads him to wasting away, still unable to cope with the guilt and fear over his parents and his passion for Gotham.

The only thing Rachel had to do with Batman-- emotionally-- is that they wouldn't be together while Bruce was still in the cape and cowl, or even had the desire to put it on.

 

[bbasher]

Is that why Affleck's Batman is based on Dark Knight Returns Batman? A Batman who quit for 10 years

IIRC, nothing was said about him retiring. In fact, it's implied that it's business as usual just with new rules. Snyder adapted the best things from TDKR.

 

[HaplessHenchman]

Is that why Affleck's Batman is based on Dark Knight Returns Batman? A Batman who quit for 10 years

Even with the sarcasm smilie, you still sound defensive. It's just a poll on the Internet. Not that big of a deal.

 

[titansupes]

Affleck. A Batman who quits is not Batman.

A Batman who seeks to save Gotham then retire os absolutely accurate to the character, pre-Miller's DKR.

A main canon Batman who kills indiscriminately and mercilessly is... well...

 

[The Joker]

IIRC, nothing was said about him retiring. In fact, it's implied that it's business as usual just with new rules. Snyder adapted the best things from TDKR.

Snyder and Affleck are both die hard fans of Dark Knight Returns Batman, the Batman you says is not Batman just because he quit.

Second the Cops in Gotham who first encountered Batman when he was saving those girls from that slave trade ring acted like they had never seen Batman before, implying he had not been seen in years.

2+2=4.

 

[bbasher]

He can say that, because she didn't.

Bruce stopped being Batman because he wasn't needed anymore (though he still had the burning desire to be Batman-- which is part of what shatters his life in the next eight years)-- he set that aside for Gotham's greater good.

Without Batman, Bruce put his focus and desire to do good into Wayne Enterprises. When he discovered that his pet project could easily be turned into a weapon of mass destruction.

Seemingly unable to do good for Gotham (and with no Batman to vent through), Bruce retreats even further. Rachel is the reason he never moved on with a personal/romantic life, and never tried to build a family of his own. It all leads him to wasting away, still unable to cope with the guilt and fear over his parents and his passion for Gotham.

The only thing Rachel had to do with Batman-- emotionally-- is that they wouldn't be together while Bruce was still in the cape and cowl, or even had the desire to put it on.

If Rachel had nothing to do with it, then why would Alfred burn the note saying she was gonna marry Harvey?

 

[The Joker]

Even with the sarcasm smilie, you still sound defensive. It's just a poll on the Internet. Not that big of a deal.

I'm not being defensive. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of your statement. Affleck's Batman is heavily based on a Batman who threw in the towel for 10 years. And worst of all the DKR Batman did it when the city still needed him.

 

[DACrowe]

Beautiful post. I'd add his selflessness and asceticism to the list. You really got the sense that this man would do ANYTHING for the people of Gotham.

And yeah, this poll is obviously going to be dominated by Affleck. Once the shiny new toy effect wears off, this will be a better measure.

Anyone who believes this did not pay attention to the movies.

Thanks. And agreed on the Rachel complaint, even if that was the weakest aspect of the trilogy.

 

[bbasher]

Snyder and Affleck are both die hard fans of Dark Knight Returns Batman, the Batman you says is not Batman just because he quit.

Second the Cops in Gotham who first encountered Batman when he was saving those girls from that slave trade ring acted like they had never seen Batman before, implying he had not been seen in years.

2+2=4.

LOL you mean the ONE young cop who had never seen him before implying that he'd never seen him UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.

1+1=2

 

[The Batman]

Fair points.

What do you think of my other points? I'd love your counter to them.

Being honest, I was responding to you specifically, I was responding to whoever was saying "He walked away cause of Rachel" or "He was looking to NOT be Batman", which isn't true if you actually pay attention to the films. Regarding your points, though

I think any Batman that goes into his crusade wanting it to be finite is a fundamentally flawed interpretation. It may be the more "human" desire, but actively hoping to some day be able to get up and walk away is not something I want out of Batman. And during the ten year period of the Nolan films, he was active for what? A year and a half? Not my cup of tea.

Affleck has been Batman for twenty years, and has shown no signs or desires of stopping. He may be darker, more violent, and at an emotional crossroads, but he lives and breathes by his crusade. I personally think that is an extremely important aspect of the character.

There's a picture The Joker always shows where Batman tells Robin that he's working towards a day where he is no longer needed. To be honest, the whole "I'll do this forever" aspect of the crusade is incredibly overrated, and off the top of my head, the only comic book incarnations I can see holding that ideal are the Frank Miller and Post Crisis versions. I can see any Pre-1986 version of the character eventually retiring, and indeed, at least one of those versions did.

The nightmare sequence bothered me, but only because it was a completely useless sequence. In the context of the scene itself, Batman shooting people was fine. It effectively sold the hopelessness of that post-apocalyptic world, where even Batman was pushed to that point.

Batman shooting people in the knightmare sequence would've meant something if this were an anti-gun, anti-killing Batman.

Almost every single Batman has been guilty of manslaughter - some examples more egregious than others.

Agreed, which is why I can't really complain about Batfleck doing it. I love Keaton, so I can't really knock Batfleck for killing.

I will concede that the branding thing is conceptually confusing. It's an automatic death sentence in prison? How would Batman have any control over that? And why would criminals kill someone for getting their ass kicked by Batman and being branded for it?

Wasn't the idea that the Bat-Brand was for specific criminals, like rapists or people who ran sex-trades? I thought I read that somewhere.

 

[The Joker]

If Rachel had nothing to do with it, then why would Alfred burn the note saying she was gonna marry Harvey?

To spare him being hurt of course.

Alfred: "What if before she died she wrote a letter saying she chose Harvey Dent over you. And what if....to spare you pain...I burnt that letter".

Again another example of not paying simple attention to the movies.

 

[bbasher]

I'm not being defensive. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of your statement. Affleck's Batman is heavily based on a Batman who threw in the towel for 10 years. And worst of all the DKR Batman did it when the city still needed him.

Heavily based does not mean that it's exactly the same, but I get why you'd be quick to jump to conclusions about it. At least he was BATMAN for over 20 years and not a year and a half before he decided to hang it up.

 

[titansupes]

If Rachel had nothing to do with it, then why would Alfred burn the note saying she was gonna marry Harvey?

This will be somewhat paraphrased, but it's accurate to the content--

Alfred puts the note in front of Bruce when he's grieving.

"We were going to be together, Alfred. Harvey doesn't know. He can never know".

Alfred takes the note away... "Because sometimes, the truth isn't good enough".

In TDKR--

"What if, she wrote you a letter, saying that she wasn't going to be with you... And what if-- to spare you pain-- I burned that letter..."

Bruce thought Rachel was in love with him. Alfred burned her letter because it said otherwise, to spare him. Nothing to do with Batman or the retirement.

 

[Forever Evil]

I liked Bale as Batman for the most part, but I always felt he was overshadowed by the villains. Joker, Bane and even Ra's al Ghul were more interesting to me.

Affleck's Batman is the incarnation I've been waiting for. Controversial? Sure. But it's my preference.

 

[The Joker]

Thanks. And agreed on the Rachel complaint, even if that was the weakest aspect of the trilogy.

LOL you mean the ONE young cop who had never seen him before implying that he'd never seen him UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.

1+1=2

No I mean a Cop who acted like he had never seen him at all.

 

[bbasher]

To spare him being hurt of course.

Alfred: "What if before she died she wrote a letter saying she chose Harvey Dent over you. And what if....to spare you pain...I burnt that letter".

Again another example of not paying simple attention to the movies.

Do you remember what happened EXACTLY after that? He kicked Alfred out of his life and didn't think twice about it. Garbage, all because of a woman. Even after hearing that he still proceeded to put the cape and cowl back on to do his job.....

 

[Mr. Wayne]

Snyder and Affleck are both die hard fans of Dark Knight Returns Batman, the Batman you says is not Batman just because he quit.

Second the Cops in Gotham who first encountered Batman when he was saving those girls from that slave trade ring acted like they had never seen Batman before, implying he had not been seen in years.

2+2=4.

The implication is never that he hasn't been seen in years. The implication is that he is so terrifying and has avoided law enforcement getting a clear line of sight on him so well that he exists as more of an urban legend than a verified human being. In fact you could argue that given the existence of Superman and the realization that there are beings in existence beyond our comprehension he could be viewed as supernatural or superhuman. The urban legend aspect of the character exists in plenty of continuities and I'm positive that is what is the implication was. He doesn't go around with the intent to be seen, especially by law enforcement. I would bet that in this universe there have probably only been a handful of cops who have gotten a good glimpse of him and that's including Jim Gordon.

 

[DACrowe]

I'm comparing Bale in rises to Affleck in BvS as both are "dejected and broken and worn out".

Bale's just took his cape and cowl and hid for 8 years. THAT'S NOT BATMAN. I could buy a year maybe 2 MAX, but 8? To top it off, he let a piece of paper take his place.....terrible.

Affleck's still fought crime because being Batman is what he's supposed to do, even if he was ruthless and made his own rules.

A few things: Are we sure Batman really retired for all of the 8 years? I suspect he was on the streets more covertly for a while. Whatever the case might be, Bruce didn't become a recluse until 5 years later after his energy project failed.

That is actually a point often ignored: Batman tried to make the city better on a macro level in TDKT. He didn't just beat up criminals, which as you get older you realize is fighting the symptom not the cause. Rather, he used his wealth and resources both in and out of the costume to bury police corruption, zero in on organized crime, and eventually used rather morally ambiguous means (i.e. political conspiracy) to create a political climate that brought Gotham out of the darkness--the civil rights ethics, is another matter.

Afterward, he focused on trying to solve climate change by creating global energy and only when he realized he created an easy-to-make nuclear bomb did he become fully dejected.

... My point is that he was always thinking about trying to help people and make the world better.

The Batfleck Batman and for that matter the Miller one do it to make themselves feel better and seem far less concerned with actually helping people or being, you know, generally heroic.

 

[The Joker]

Heavily based does not mean that it's exactly the same, but I get why you'd be quick to jump to conclusions about it.

I'm not just jumping to any conclusions.

Fact 1: DKR Batman quit for 10 years

Fact 2: Snyder and Affleck love DKR Batman

Fact 3: Affleck's Batman is based on DKR Batman

So by your own ridiculous logic if a Batman who quits is not Batman, then Affleck is not based on a proper Batman

At least he was BATMAN for over 20 years and not a year and a half before he decided to hang it up.

Yes because quantity is what matters, not quality.

 

[HaplessHenchman]

I'm not being defensive. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of your statement. Affleck's Batman is heavily based on a Batman who threw in the towel for 10 years. And worst of all the DKR Batman did it when the city still needed him.

Okay Mr. Defensive defensive guy...

 

[Boom]

There's a picture The Joker always shows where Batman tells Robin that he's working towards a day where he is no longer needed. To be honest, the whole "I'll do this forever" aspect of the crusade is incredibly overrated, and off the top of my head, the only comic book incarnations I can see holding that ideal are the Frank Miller and Post Crisis versions. I can see any Pre-1986 version of the character eventually retiring.

Interesting. I had never seen that before. Any idea which story it's from?

In any case, I stand corrected. I didn't realize there was clear-cut precedent in the comics. It seems I have more reading to do.

Batman shooting people in the knightmare sequence would've meant something if this were an anti-gun, anti-killing Batman.

.... That's a damn fine point.

Agreed, which is why I can't really complain about Batfleck doing it. I love Keaton, so I can't really knock Batfleck for killing.

Yeah. I mean it's definitely not my preference, but I'm honestly at the point where it simply doesn't bother me. I remember being extremely nitpicky with Nolan's films about this, and only later on did I realize that it didn't take away from those movies nor that characterization when all was said and done.

Wasn't the idea that the Bat-Brand was for specific criminals, like rapists or people who ran sex-trades? I thought I read that somewhere.

Another poster mentioned this (theShape, I think). Where do you stand with this concept?

 

[TheSuperBrando]

There's more amazing Batman moments in BvS than all other Batman movies combined - the batmobile chase scene, Batman's three-steps-ahead strategy for taking down Superman, his mythological reputation among criminals and police, his conflicted and suave Bruce Wayne, and THIS IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE EVER SEEN A LIVE-ACTION BATMAN ACTUALLY FIGHT AND IT'S AMAZING! Batman is brutal throughout the whole movie, he's not playing around here and he's not just a bat-suited Law & Order detective. And by the end of the movie Superman has inspired Batman to be a better person. Yes. YES! This is easily the best live-action Batman ever, Ben Affleck nailed it.

 

[titansupes]

Do you remember what happened EXACTLY after that? He kicked Alfred out of his life and didn't think twice about it. Garbage, all because of a woman. Even after hearing that he still proceeded to put the cape and cowl back on to do his job.....

What is your argument here? You were proven wrong about the whole "Quit because of Rachel" thing. So now you're shifting to... What?

Bruce said goodbye to Alfred because he betrayed his trust in a massive way. Alfred said goodbye because he didn't want to watch someone he loved like a son go act out his death wish, and there was no talking him out if it (he tried... for years).

This has happened in the comics before, for much the same reasons.

And yes, even after hearing that, he does put the cape and cowl back on... Because Rachel had nothing to do with his decision to be/not be Batman, it's a different issue.