Ben Affleck or Christian Bale?

[DACrowe]

You mean the part when he shoots the mutant thug in the head with a gun to save a baby that was taken hostage?

Yeah. You're right -- Batman in the comics, let alone The Dark Knight Returns.

This scene, by the way, is played out almost exactly when Batman rescued Martha. Except Martha stands in for the baby and KGBeast takes the place of the mutant thug. Except Snyder's Batman shoots the tank of the flamethrower that KGBeast is holding -- not his head.

KGBeast could have survived that blast and show up in a future film, scarred and with a mask. Martha and Batman survived the blast and they were close to it.

Bottom line, Batman has done things more savage in the comics. He has one things that have led to people's death in the comics. And even Nolan's Batman (perhaps my favorite) has done things that either COULD have killed people or DEFINITELY did kill people.

- The ninjas at Ra's al Ghul's headquarters.
- The cops that he plowed over in the Tumbler.
- The Joker thug driving the garbage truck that he demolished.
- The parked cars he blows up with the Batpod.
- The driver of the truck that Talia is in.
- Talia (he shoots her truck and kills the driver with missiles and bullets.
- Bane's thugs in the Tumblers. He fires ROCKETS at them with the Bat.

And several more.

This is nothing new.

-R

First it is left ambiguous in the comics whether he actually killed him or not. Secondly, even if he did, I am shocked that fans are so eager to have a film that embraces the Frank Miller Batman (beyond Year One that is).

He is a fascist in The Dark Knight Returns that takes over the mutant army, who are basically Neo Nazis, to be his soldiers. He knows they're criminals and murderous, but he doesn't care because they follow orders, and it's implied he wants to use them to take over Gotham and one day instill order in his own image. In the later books Miller wrote, which Snyder's Batman seems closer to, he is also someone who hates women and kidnaps Dick Grayson, forcing him to live in the Batcave hunting and eating rats for weeks to turn him into the "perfect soldier."

It is kind of shocking that fans really want THAT as the basis for the DCEU Batman.

As for the Nolan "kills." As I have said, he only kills twice in those films really. The first is Harvey Dent, because he cannot allow the death of Jim Gordon's child, especially because he feels guilty for what happened to Harvey and thus this whole situation. But in the action he and Dent both, figuratively and quite literally, fall. Batman's punishment for his failures is to go into exile and take the blame for Harvey's crimes.

He kills again at the end of The Dark Knight Rises where I would argue he has literally outgrown the childhood psychosis that had born Batman. That is why he is finally able to walk outside in the daylight in costume at the end. He was also trying to save 12 million lives when he shot Talia's truck.

Each came after a major film of entire soul searching for the Batman. Affleck on the other hand just opens fire on people with machine guns throughout the movie and throws a grenade in a room full of men, and stabs someone in the neck because Snyder's like, "He's a badass, bro."

It shows such a fundamental lack of understanding of the character that it makes him seem profoundly ignorant.

 

[LucDisfilm19]

Ben Affleck

 

[Rodrigo90]

Affleck is definitive because... because... he doesn't kill like - no, that ain't right...because he doesn't quit over bad cartilage in his knees!... which couldn't really be helped by Bale... because... he wears a grey suit! Yeah! That's it!

 

[TDKR1977]

First it is left ambiguous in the comics whether he actually killed him or not. Secondly, even if he did, I am shocked that fans are so eager to have a film that embraces the Frank Miller Batman (beyond Year One that is).

He is a fascist in The Dark Knight Returns that takes over the mutant army, who are basically Neo Nazis, to be his soldiers. He knows they're criminals and murderous, but he doesn't care because they follow orders, and it's implied he wants to use them to take over Gotham and one day instill order in his own image. In the later books Miller wrote, which Snyder's Batman seems closer to, he is also someone who hates women and kidnaps Dick Grayson, forcing him to live in the Batcave hunting and eating rats for weeks to turn him into the "perfect soldier."

It is kind of shocking that fans really want THAT as the basis for the DCEU Batman.

As for the Nolan "kills." As I have said, he only kills twice in those films really. The first is Harvey Dent, because he cannot allow the death of Jim Gordon's child, especially because he feels guilty for what happened to Harvey and thus this whole situation. But in the action he and Dent both, figuratively and quite literally, fall. Batman's punishment for his failures is to go into exile and take the blame for Harvey's crimes.

He kills again at the end of The Dark Knight Rises where I would argue he has literally outgrown the childhood psychosis that had born Batman. That is why he is finally able to walk outside in the daylight in costume at the end. He was also trying to save 12 million lives when he shot Talia's truck.

Each came after a major film of entire soul searching for the Batman. Affleck on the other hand just opens fire on people with machine guns throughout the movie and throws a grenade in a room full of men, and stabs someone in the neck because Snyder's like, "He's a badass, bro."

It shows such a fundamental lack of understanding of the character that it makes him seem profoundly ignorant.

No, he DOESN'T throw a grenade at a room full of guys. Did you watch it, or are you regurgitating someone else's BS?

 

[DACrowe]

I did watch it he knocks a guy down and throws a grenade in the room, and the grenade goes off. Maybe you should see it again.

 

[TDKR1977]

I did watch it he knocks a guy down and throws a grenade in the room, and the grenade goes off. Maybe you should see it again.

No. The guy has the grenade and Bats knocks the guy who's hanging upside down into him. Dude drops the grenade. Bats never touched it.

ETA I've seen the movie four times.

 

[InJustice]

It makes sense if we're to factor our collective knowledge of the lore. Speaking explicitly on the events and dialog outlined in the film itself, the arrival of Superman is a more backed-up precursor to Batman's altered actions.

I'm not just looking at lore, I'm also looking at how the events of the film could match up with pre-existing knowledge. The film makes many references to helplessness and powerlessness that the Robin death could also be viewed as a defining moment for Batman, whether it's changing methods or retiring from the game. The only issue I see is that FAIK, the movie didn't state anything about Batman retirement.

Why is it unproductive if the whole point of the dialog is exposition and foreshadowing?

Because as I've said before, it merely states the fact that Bruce changed at some point, not the why/how of Bruce's change.

Personally I don't need any more reason than he's a lot more pissed off and unforgiving. Leaving a bat-symbol (typically in the form of a batarang) has been his call sign for years. The branding is taking that a step further (and contextually is also a reference to his childhood hero, Zorro) into a permanent reminder.

It's jarring to go straight into a changed Batman without providing enough context. I'm not asking for some huge explanation, because we know the Batman solo will cover that, but a simple scene outlining a reason for his change would have been enough. It still would've sucked to have seen that Batman has no qualms with using a gun, but enough to understand why he feels he needs to use it.

This seems to be an argument on Batman's threshold before making a preemptive strike. When the primary paranoia is millions potentially dying as a result of Superman's presence, I have to believe the Wayne Tower incident compounded with the recent Capitol explosion is reasonable grounds for taking action. I'm sure there will be disagreement there, but I'm just trying to see things from Bruce's perspective. He's already a bit unhinged and primed for snapping, so it doesn't strike me as surprising that it was one more public massacre which got him fully riled.

My only gripe with that is that Batman went into action instead of investigating the problem (I mean, why would Superman use a bomb? Plus, there's already a precedent for when his powers are on display, so there are questions to ask). It feels like the plot demanded that Bruce go into action, but at the same time, the problem lies with the reasoning behind fighting. There's some great potential there, but ultimately squandered.

Eh, this is getting close to subjective territory so I'll try not to interject too much here. What you saw as luck and illogical, I saw as cinematic rhyme. Make what people will of its execution, but I personally found it beautifully ballsy (I reserve that band name) to resolve such a gargantuan physical clash of titans with a simple reminder of lost loved ones and its rippling effect on one's ideologies and perspective.

That's where we'll agree to disagree. I will say, it was at the very least poignant that the fight ended on a common ground. I just with the pathways towards getting there was better written.

 

[DACrowe]

No. The guy has the grenade and Bats knocks the guy who's hanging upside down into him. Dude drops the grenade. Bats never touched it.

ETA I've seen the movie four times.

This is Snyder making his Batman has godlike as Miller. He clearly intended to push the grenade in the room so that it would go off and he could continue stabbing people in the neck. Or perhaps you'd like to argue that guy ran into the knife? This Batman is a sadistic murderer, it is okay to admit.

 

[TDKR1977]

This is Snyder making his Batman has godlike as Miller. He clearly intended to push the grenade in the room so that it would go off and he could continue stabbing people in the neck. Or perhaps you'd like to argue that guy ran into the knife? This Batman is a sadistic murderer, it is okay to admit.

Didn't stab dude in the neck, either. Through the shoulder into the wall. JFC.

ETA And now you're backing down from your initial assertion that he's chucking grenades.

 

[Jekecy]

I'm not just looking at lore, I'm also looking at how the events of the film could match up with pre-existing knowledge. The film makes many references to helplessness and powerlessness that the Robin death could also be viewed as a defining moment for Batman, whether it's changing methods or retiring from the game. The only issue I see is that FAIK, the movie didn't state anything about Batman retirement.

I don't think Batman has ever retired. The Robin death will play a factor at some point (Ben has said as much), but again I think you're too easily ignoring the signs Snyder left for the viewer. Alfred's speech starts off referencing "gods fall from the sky". When he refers to powerlessness, the camera pans straight into the computer screens of Superman in various scenes of heroic action. It doesn't get more clear-cut than that.

My only gripe with that is that Batman went into action instead of investigating the problem (I mean, why would Superman use a bomb? Plus, there's already a precedent for when his powers are on display, so there are questions to ask). It feels like the plot demanded that Bruce go into action, but at the same time, the problem lies with the reasoning behind fighting. There's some great potential there, but ultimately squandered.

There's nothing to investigate, Bruce knows Superman didn't waltz in there to blow it up. But it's another fatal case of collateral, and he's not going to sit idly by. At no point does Bruce think Supes is a murderer, he only believes Supes' presence invites thousands and millions of deaths.

This is Snyder making his Batman has godlike as Miller. He clearly intended to push the grenade in the room so that it would go off and he could continue stabbing people in the neck. Or perhaps you'd like to argue that guy ran into the knife? This Batman is a sadistic murderer, it is okay to admit.

Snyder's mistake is how gratuitous and self-indulgent he got with the "incidental manslaughter" (his words). Knocking someone else into a grenade-wielding thug is not sadistic murder, it's immediate self-preservation.

This Batman isn't going to take extra precautions in making sure you survive in high-octane stakes. If there's a one-on-one in an isolated room, he's not simply going to off you after he has what he needs. As evidenced by the branded thugs (one mentioned on a telecast) and Lex Luthor. I don't know why people are ignoring this.

 

[TDKR1977]

I don't think Batman has ever retired. The Robin death will play a factor at some point (Ben has said as much), but again I think you're too easily ignoring the signs Snyder left for the viewer. Alfred's speech starts off referencing "gods fall from the sky". When he refers to powerlessness, the camera pans straight into the computer screens of Superman in various scenes of heroic action. It doesn't get more clear-cut than that.


There's nothing to investigate, Bruce knows Superman didn't waltz in there to blow it up. But it's another fatal case of collateral, and he's not going to sit idly by. At no point does Bruce think Supes is a murderer, he only believes Supes' presence invites thousands and millions of deaths.


Snyder's mistake is how gratuitous and self-indulgent he got with the "incidental manslaughter" (his words). Knocking someone else into a grenade-wielding thug is not sadistic murder, it's immediate self-preservation.

This Batman isn't going to take extra precautions in making sure you survive in high-octane stakes. If there's a one-on-one in an isolated room, he's not simply going to off you after he has what he needs. As evidenced by the branded thugs (one mentioned on a telecast) and Lex Luthor. I don't know why people are ignoring this.

We both know why.

 

[Supernova]

Didn't stab dude in the neck, either. Through the shoulder into the wall. JFC.

ETA And now you're backing down from your initial assertion that he's chucking grenades.

Im with ya mate He difinitely stabbed him in the shoulder n through the wall to hold him there. Its thing like this that make wonder if haters are so blind to the fact thia batman isnt a murder like they want to believe he is. People are going in n looking at the freaking nameless faceless henchman n deciding if they could have survived based in REALISM in a comic book movie. Lol get a life

 

[DeadStroke]

After seeing it again. Yep, its Affleck.

Bale is still amazing in Batman Begins though.

His Batman in the sequels however are the like Matrix sequels. Such a lower quality compared to the original that it almost hurts the original.

I don't blame him for that though. I blame Nolan.

 

[DACrowe]

Didn't stab dude in the neck, either. Through the shoulder into the wall. JFC.

ETA And now you're backing down from your initial assertion that he's chucking grenades.

Heh, touché.

I admittedly have only seen it once and I'll admit I was wrong on the knife moment because it happened so quickly. I standby that Snyder made his Batman infallible, so the grenade thing was intentional murder.

But isn't it frustrating that we have to have this conversation? Especially since this is supposed to finally be the comic book Batman character brought to life.

 

[TDKR1977]

Heh, touché.

I admittedly have only seen it once and I'll admit I was wrong on the knife moment because it happened so quickly. I standby that Snyder made his Batman infallible, so the grenade thing was intentional murder.

But isn't it frustrating that we have to have this conversation? Especially since this is supposed to finally be the comic book Batman character brought to life.

How is that murder? Dude was gonna frag him so he knocked the other guy into him. That's not murder.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Wow thought it would be a lot closer in the polls than it is.

 

[db85usa]

Affleck was awesome as Batman. There were moments where I didn't recognize Affleck, I recognized Batman and he pulls it off with Bruce Wayne too, separating the two on screen. I'm very hopeful for a Batman solo film and think it needs to happen immediately after JL begins filming.

 

[Marvel Knight]

Wow thought it would be a lot closer in the polls than it is.

Wait till the hype dies down, and fanboys calm themselves.

This happened with Garfield and Macguire in the Spider-Man forums here too.

 

[Serpico Jones]

I did watch it he knocks a guy down and throws a grenade in the room, and the grenade goes off. Maybe you should see it again.

Batman never throws a grenade in this movie.

 

[Serpico Jones]

Heh, touché.

I admittedly have only seen it once and I'll admit I was wrong on the knife moment because it happened so quickly. I standby that Snyder made his Batman infallible, so the grenade thing was intentional murder.

But isn't it frustrating that we have to have this conversation? Especially since this is supposed to finally be the comic book Batman character brought to life.

Infallible? This Batman got stabbed.

 

[hafizbat]

You guys can argue about the little details all you want, but it's clear as day that this Batman had no problem with killing people. That's just how it is. You can debate all day long about each individual instance or whether Bale killed as much, but it's the intent that matters in the end.

The intent is clear and not up for debate. To me that's an integral part of the character, and that's why Batfleck will always be a bastardized version of Batman in my mind.

 

[SKSpawn]

I've no problem with this Batman killing; it made complete sense in the movie's context.

Sure, he potentially killed more people than any other Batman, but Batman has killed people in nearly every iteration at some point so why dwell on it now? In a world where vigilantes and superheroes fight criminals and supervillians, deaths are inevitable even for "no-kill" guys like Batman (see every superhero movie ever!)

 

[schereZada]

Affleck is definitive because... because... he doesn't kill like - no, that ain't right...because he doesn't quit over bad cartilage in his knees!... which couldn't really be helped by Bale... because... he wears a grey suit! Yeah! That's it!

Ha, that reminds me all Bale's Bruce Wayne wanted to do was quitting as Batman, since Batman Begins.

 

[HanShotFirst]

Bale was great in Batman Begins. But then sequels happened and he kinda became just a dude dressed up like a bat. Maybe Nolan shoulda kept the shakey cam so we wouldn't have to witness Bats fight like a 90 year old man. Great movies though.

Now I wish to see Batfleck take on TDKR Bane. Bats breaking Bane's back would've been glorious and fresh lmao.

[BLACKOUT]And don't even bring up the murder-bat bs. They're both killers.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[FunkMiller]

Bale was great in Batman Begins. But then sequels happened and he kinda became just a dude dressed up like a bat. Maybe Nolan shoulda kept the shakey cam so we wouldn't have to witness Bats fight like a 90 year old man. Great movies though.

Now I wish to see Batfleck take on TDKR Bane. Bats breaking Bane's back would've been glorious and fresh lmao.

[BLACKOUT]And don't even bring up the murder-bat bs. They're both killers.[/BLACKOUT]

Yeah. I think if this were Batman Begins Bale Batman only, the vote would be a lot closer. He lost a great deal of his power once they went for that swat gear Batsuit.

...discussion for a different place, though.