Fantasy Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Vampire - Part 3

[Primal Slayer]

SMG didnt like Season 6 and thought it betrayed Buffys character so it isnt that surprising people may be put off by her performance. At least in S6 I think Buffy was supposed to be unlikeable to a degree, she was so shut off and trying to get that spark of life back.

But it is funny and sad that everyone keeps forgetting Marc Blucas. He was a series regular and wasnt even invited to the reunion and no one even brings him up in Buffys love life.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

SMG didnt like Season 6 and thought it betrayed Buffys character so it isnt that surprising people may be put off by her performance. At least in S6 I think Buffy was supposed to be unlikeable to a degree, she was so shut off and trying to get that spark of life back.

But it is funny and sad that everyone keeps forgetting Marc Blucas. He was a series regular and wasnt even invited to the reunion and no one even brings him up in Buffys love life.

Riley was a terrible character, and part of a bad story arc. So I'm fine with them ignoring him.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Everytime I do a rewatch I hate him less and less. He was a very average joe.

 

[flickchick85]

It's the opposite for me. Every time I do a rewatch, I hate him (and Xander) more.

 

[Mad Ones]

SMG's acting was the best in S6. She had to depict a very complicated emotional state and I thought she did a great job. The scene where Tara tells her that she didn't come back wrong is really powerful.

I hate Spuffy, though. And it was at its worst in Season 7 which kinda ruins the season for me.

Riley's ok. He's cute.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Toast is better than Riley.

 

[O'Haire]

Eh, I never had a huge problem with Riley. Him trying to be all tough with Angel then getting his ass whopped is one of my favorite moments in the series though.

 

[Mister J]

I didn't like that entire Initiative storyline; Adam was a mixed bag. Riley was blasé as could be.

 

[Sawyer]

My reaction to both Riley and this ongoing discussion about his quality:

 

[TheFuture]

I'm another who liked Riley a lot more upon rewatch. The problem with Riley is that he wasn't necessary as a character. I would have liked to have seen Buffy deal with the loss of Angel in season 4 (which could have still included the rebound aspect such as Parker) without having entered another big relationship.

Then in season 5 they could have finally let her have that normal relationship with Riley which would have made her eventual sacrifice even more tragic. In season 6 you could then have Buffy being realistically cold towards Riley while starting her affair with Death, in other words Spike. That would have led to a realistic exit for Riley instead of turning the guy into a joke as they did in the end.

That's how I would have played it anyway!

 

[Mani-Man]

I love that people still are so invested in the show, discuss, debate after all these years...its great.

I never had a real problem with Riley, i just thought he was too generic for my liking.
He is okay but boring to me.

Season 6 is really dark and twisted, something i never expected in the first episodes of it.
After the musical episode, it seemed like a whole different team was working on the season because the episodes before had "just" a sorrowful theme to it...but then it gone down to dark, twisted and destructive.

As for Spike vs Angel...i always will be on team spike and im kind of glad that the creator of the buffy universe is also prefering Spike.
To me there are many reasons why, one of the big reasons is the way both characters are when you put them in the same state.

Take away the soul and look who they are, bring them on the same level and see what happens.
One wanted to destroy the whole world and drive Buffy insane, the other one was disgusted with himself and fought to get a soul for Buffy.

Angel sees the soul as a curse, as something that has been forced upon him.
Spike sees the soul as a gift, as something that allows him to be a better man and love Buffy as she deserves...even if she doesnt love him back.

But its all opinion, neither one are truly "wrong"...People who like Bangel are not wrong and people who like Spuffy are not wrong.
They both have their appeal.

 

[O'Haire]

Angel sees the soul as a curse, as something that has been forced upon him.

His is a curse and was forced upon him.

 

[Mani-Man]

His is a curse and was forced upon him.

Metaphoric spoken from my side.
It is something he doesnt want, being a good person, being someone who cares for others.

 

[henzINNIT]

Those pictures man. Right in the feels. Shame Faith and Giles couldn't make it, but they got Joyce so that nearly makes up for it. Sad to see Brendon isolated from the others. I don't know the story there, though I know he's had his problems. Definitely some bad blood between him and someone, though there is a picture out there where he's with a few of the guys which is nice to see.

Well into season 4 on a rewatch. Still love this show, though more than ever I felt the loss when the High School run ended. It worked so much better there. There's still a lot of greatness yet to come. I like Riley a lot. Looks like the staff struggled to write him, as his entire conception seemed to be "he's a nice guy". Not a lot to do there, but hey, he was a nice guy. I'm the guy who likes Kennedy and Connor though, so what do I know?

I totally understand SMG's opinion on S6. Easily the weakest season in my opinion. I'm all for dark, but the quality just isn't there. I liked Buffy's struggles for the most part, thought Willow's magic addiction story was painfully lame most of the time, didn't buy Giles leaving when and how he did, Dawn has nothing to do other than be annoying, and Xander and Anya's wedding was ghastly. At that point, I just felt like I could see the writers forcing as much misery in as they could. Xander standing Anya up felt like retrogression, a break up for break up's sake, and "Hells Bells" was a terrible episode to boot. Not a fan.

Season 7 has its problems too but it sticks its landing and overall I was pretty satisfied with the end.

Got to rewatch Angel soon too. I prefer it to Buffy.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I like Riley on paper. Whedon was going for a Steve Rogers type of character. Which made sense and was an appropriate idea to follow up the **** with Angel. I blame the casting. That's the type of character where you need to get the casting right or it's just bland. It's like if they cast Cap wrong.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I love the first half of S6, then after OMWF it just started tumbling.

 

[flickchick85]

Metaphoric spoken from my side.
It is something he doesnt want, being a good person, being someone who cares for others.

Except his entire dream throughout his show is to eventually become human (thus the soul being permanent)?

He never wants to become Angelus again.

It WAS forced on him and made him miserable, which is what it SHOULD have done, because he committed countless heinous acts over a longer time than Spike, and he was always the more ruthless one, so he had far more to atone for.

The difference between the two for me was that Angel's journey to becoming a hero/"champion" was ultimately about himself and his own backstory/redemption, while for Spike it was always about the girl. That made the former a more interesting character to me, because I'm not into the "bad boy turns good for the love of a good woman" trope.

 

[javonstokess]

People should remember that not only was Angel's soul forced on him, but he also had to always be aware that if he had another "perfect moment of happiness", he'd go all murdery on everyone.

Spike never had that "limitation". I think Angel would have been a totally different character had he not had to worry about that.

FYI, I liked Riley for what he was. He was supposed to be the "polar opposite" of Angel. In essence, he was the real "nice guy/rebound guy".

 

[TheFuture]

People should remember that not only was Angel's soul forced on him, but he also had to always be aware that if he had another "perfect moment of happiness", he'd go all murdery on everyone.

Spike never had that "limitation". I think Angel would have been a totally different character had he not had to worry about that.

FYI, I liked Riley for what he was. He was supposed to be the "polar opposite" of Angel. In essence, he was the real "nice guy/rebound guy".

That's a great point. Never really thought about it that way. Given the amount of years Angel carried that weight around with him before meeting Buffy it's understandable that he never truly gave in to his passion for her like Spike did. Spike never had the handicap that Angel did.

 

[SiegePerilous]

I love the first half of S6, then after OMWF it just started tumbling.

Same, though I think I like it until about Smashed. Once Buffy has sex with Spike it's all down hill until Tara gets shot. Dark Willow was awesome and should have had way more episodes to breathe.

The difference between the two for me was that Angel's journey to becoming a hero/"champion" was ultimately about himself and his own backstory/redemption, while for Spike it was always about the girl. That made the former a more interesting character to me, because I'm not into the "bad boy turns good for the love of a good woman" trope.

That and I hate the fact that his attempted rape of her was way more about him than her. It was such a betrayal to what the show was about. I think Spike in general undermines Buffy and her status way more than Angel ever did. And the redemption thing was not only already done by Angel, but also by Faith, and both were much better and more authentic IMO.

Well into season 4 on a rewatch. Still love this show, though more than ever I felt the loss when the High School run ended. It worked so much better there. There's still a lot of greatness yet to come. I like Riley a lot. Looks like the staff struggled to write him, as his entire conception seemed to be "he's a nice guy". Not a lot to do there, but hey, he was a nice guy. I'm the guy who likes Kennedy and Connor though, so what do I know?

I totally understand SMG's opinion on S6. Easily the weakest season in my opinion. I'm all for dark, but the quality just isn't there. I liked Buffy's struggles for the most part, thought Willow's magic addiction story was painfully lame most of the time, didn't buy Giles leaving when and how he did, Dawn has nothing to do other than be annoying, and Xander and Anya's wedding was ghastly. At that point, I just felt like I could see the writers forcing as much misery in as they could. Xander standing Anya up felt like retrogression, a break up for break up's sake, and "Hells Bells" was a terrible episode to boot. Not a fan.

I like Riley more after they break up, actually. The overall episode was stupid, but his return in S6 was a breath of fresh air with everybody else acting like total idiots all season and here comes Riley with his act together. The comics sucked too, but I did like his appearances there. He makes a good recurring ally, if not a boyfriend.

Willow's magic addiction was such a stupid way to go through with an arc that had such promise, and ended very strong. And I never bought Giles leaving Buffy as an act of tough love. She's barley an adult herself, just came back from the traumatic experience of DYING, has no money and is responsible for a child not much younger than herself. Since the "Ripper" spin off was being kicked around, couldn't they have just had Giles say he has unavoidable business to take care of in England and he didn't know when he'd be back?

 

[jaymes_e06]

In Giles defense there were three adults in that household at the time to help her soo... it's not like she didn't have ANY help at all.

 

[SiegePerilous]

In Giles defense there were three adults in that household at the time to help her soo... it's not like she didn't have ANY help at all.

That reminds me...did Willow and Tara have jobs? Were they just free loading it in Buffy's house, and wanted the dead girl to pay all their bills?

Of course, coming at it from the perspective of today's economy, a 21 year old being able to pay those bills with a fast food job is the most unrealistic thing in a series that features vampires, witches and demons.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Nope, they were still in college I believe living off of scholarships.

But Sunnydale wasn't the best part of California, cost of living probably wasnt that high.

 

[SiegePerilous]

Yeah I guess the Hellmouth being what it is...

 

[jaymes_e06]

That reminds me...did Willow and Tara have jobs? Were they just free loading it in Buffy's house, and wanted the dead girl to pay all their bills?

Of course, coming at it from the perspective of today's economy, a 21 year old being able to pay those bills with a fast food job is the most unrealistic thing in a series that features vampires, witches and demons.

Even then Xander was pretty well off owning his own condo at his age and Anya pretty much owned The Magic Box and was good with money in general, however, her advice to start charging people for saving their lives from vampires and demons was somewhat ill advised.