The Dark Knight Rises Can it be topped?

[Gianakin_]

Akiva Goldsman has written other movies than BATMAN FOREVER BATMAN & ROBIN (and LOST IN SPACE). He's not always on, but when he is, he's usually very good. The Batman/Chase rooftop scene in FOREVER speaks for itself. It's fairly apparent what's going on between them.

I know what he's written and it's (in its vast majority and always imo) drivel. The rooftop scene in BF was borderline as bad as an arlekin novel, in writing, acting and direction.

 

[I Am The Knight]

It's like Bruce Campbell and Raimi's cousins, brothers, and uncles popping up everywhere in his films.

Ugh, the memories...

 

[ALP]

The cave in BATMAN RETURNS was small?

http://thebatmanuniverse.net/image/Movie/History/Live%20Action/Batman%20Returns%20(1992)/Screenshots/Batman%20Returns032.JPG

His workstations, maybe.

And that's just the lower level.

That picture illustrates exactly why I did not like the caves in Burton's films.

If Batman took one step backwards he would have plummeted to his death. It was like numerous small avalanches...too scary!

The thing about BATMAN FOREVER one liners...

Some of them actually had meaning. Batman didn't just say these things for the hell of it. They were jokes, but they weren't just jokes, and Kilmer sold them wonderfully, and they set up other lines from Chase. The character was actually trying to diffuse an uncomfortable situation with humor here, it wasn't a case of making the audience more comfortable .

"I'll get drive thru" is a little cheesy, but it was also a clear attempt to show that he'd lightened up from the get go, but not completely. That he was comfortable enough in his mission to rib Alfred about his habits.

And I'll always love "Holey metal ground, Batman!"

What do you mean the line was to show he had lightened up? Lightened up from what, Burton's movies? Sorry not sure.

To me the very best moments of BF was the serious stuff. Bruce reconciling with the death of his own parents after feeling it was his fault. That new images had been forming in old memories such as the red book... I loved that bit. And his relationship with Dick was well done too. If only Robin didn't look 20... and lucky for us, Tommy Lee Jones had to ruin any momentum the movie had going. But overall I thought Kilmer's Wayne was the closest to TAS and O'Neil.

 

[Doc Samson]

I'll always have a soft spot for Kilmer and Forever...

*sneaks away slowly*

It's all good, man. You're not the only one.

Well me too, overall I thought Kilmer was decent as Batman and especially good as Bruce Wayne.

You can add me to that group, BF is a close second to B89 for me. Given better material, Kilmer could have been even better, I think it's a testament to him that he anchored that movie as well as he did. I also still think that opening action sequence is still quite exhilarating, at least in an over the top, popcorn kind of way, which was the desired effect to begin with

 

[Brother Jack]

To me the very best moments of BF was the serious stuff. Bruce reconciling with the death of his own parents after feeling it was his fault. That new images had been forming in old memories such as the red book... I loved that bit. And his relationship with Dick was well done too. If only Robin didn't look 20... and lucky for us, Tommy Lee Jones had to ruin any momentum the movie had going. But overall I thought Kilmer's Wayne was the closest to TAS and O'Neil.

Too bad most of that stuff was cut from the film.

 

[ALP]

Too bad most of that stuff was cut from the film.

Yeah you're right, I forgot some of it was cut. Too bad that they show a few flashbacks of the red book yet left out its resolution!!! Schumacher also cut out the cool scene where Two Face hangs a guard from the ceiling and writes a message on the wall with blood in Arkham. Guess that scene was too dark for his tone

 

[Symbiotic]

Yeah you're right, I forgot some of it was cut. Too bad that they show a few flashbacks of the red book yet left out its resolution!!! Schumacher also cut out the cool scene where Two Face hangs a guard from the ceiling and writes a message on the wall with blood in Arkham. Guess that scene was too dark for his tone

THE BAT MUST DIE. Love that scene.

 

[KILLING JOKER]

I don't get it. When did I say it wasn't the fault of the writer? Chris Nolan helps write the stories then writes the final draft of the screenplay. Are you inferring that he is not at fault, and that Goyer is? Because if so, that is moronic, like I said earlier. You don't give Nolan the credit for the good stuff, then give him a pass for the crap. I'm still a little confused by that comment, as I'm not sure who "he" is, as there were two men involved in the writing of BB, and three in TDK.

As far as the one-liners, I never really said whether they actually worked or not, just that there is a logic in it. I heard a lot of laughs in the audience when I saw both films, so it must work on some level, for some viewers. I think there is cringe worthy dialogue sprinkled throughout both of Nolan's bat-films, and part of that is having to cater to the simple mass mind.

I don't know why you're just assuming that I worship Nolan and that he can do not wrong. I never said anything even remotely close to that. Of course he's at fault. A director is the final say on anything pretty much. That's why I can't stand people attacking Bale for the voice. At the end of the day it's Chris's vision. Nolan can do as many takes as he wants, he can suggest something different...etc... Nolan could leave in or take out whatever he wants. Period. Perhaps Nolan inserted it in the film for those people in the theatre that actually laughed at it. It seems Nolan must think the comedy works just fine being as though he left it in the movie. Does that mean Goyer doesen't write sucky dialogue in my opinion? No, my opinion still stands.

 

[jacobed]

The problem I had with Batman Forever is that it didn't know what it wanted to be. It's obvious Schumaker wanted to make a dark Batman film but the studios after the outrage of Returns being too mature said no make it campy. It had the best story of the 4 earlier movies and it could have easily been the best if they would have kept it a bit more serious and had the Riddler and Two Face a bit less Joker like.

 

[ALP]

THE BAT MUST DIE. Love that scene.

*in editing room*

Schumacher: Hmm, a scene that can be constructed as dark and serious without cornball chessiness. Delete!

I enjoy BF on a level of fun but I feel like it was TLJones performance that just murdered the movie and keeps it from being seen as serious on the level of at least Burton's work. He's a great actor. Had he played it serious, he could have been a perfect foil to the over the top Riddler but no...

 

[KILLING JOKER]

*in editing room*

Schumacher: Hmm, a scene that can be constructed as dark and serious without cornball chessiness. Delete!

I enjoy BF on a level of fun but I feel like it was TLJones performance that just murdered the movie and keeps it from being seen as serious on the level of at least Burton's work. He's a great actor. Had he played it serious, he could have been a perfect foil to the over the top Riddler but no...

I can honestly say that the best part of "Forever" to me was actually Robin. Honestly, they handled that with more sincerity than anything else in the movie. Particularly the scene when Bruce convinces him to stay. I liked the Flying Graysons bit too. Of course as soon as they have Batman and Robin together in action going after the Riddler they just couldn't resist. "Holy rusted metal Batman!."

 

[El Payaso]

I actually thought that was the single perfect reaction to someone who did not know Wayne but found out he was Batman. A lot of people would probably think it was a prank at first or that Bruce Wayne was just joking lol But yeah, there's a lot of cheesy happenings in BR.

Heh. I thought the same.

And I'll even say there were a few elements I thought Schumacher did the best renditions of in BF...better than Nolan and Burton. Such as Arkham Island and the batcave. His Arkham was perfectly gothic and spooky.

Yes, Schumacher did a better Arkham than Burton.

Hey! Burton never did Arkham! How can Joel's be 'better'?

And schumacher's batcave was all cool and high tech with super computers, turn table, etc but still not over the top with the dinosaur and giant penny.

Neither did Burton's.

I've never been a fan of the batcave in Burton's movies, it's too scary looking for me and Nolan's batcave is just a normal batcave lol. He'll probably add a computer in it the next film.

Scary, yes. But it's Batman!

I can honestly say that the best part of "Forever" to me was actually Robin. Honestly, they handled that with more sincerity than anything else in the movie. Particularly the scene when Bruce convinces him to stay. I liked the Flying Graysons bit too. Of course as soon as they have Batman and Robin together in action going after the Riddler they just couldn't resist. "Holy rusted metal Batman!."

I actually agree. For someone who don't appreciate that character in movies I thought it was a very good depiction. Once I had accepted the tone of the movie, I felt Robin was very well done.

Well, as you say, not "Robin" but Dick Grayson. Once Robin's there, all went downhill.

 

[KILLING JOKER]

Heh. I thought the same.



Yes, Schumacher did a better Arkham than Burton.

Hey! Burton never did Arkham! How can Joel's be 'better'?



Neither did Burton's.



Scary, yes. But it's Batman!






I actually agree. For someone who don't appreciate that character in movies I thought it was a very good depiction. Once I had accepted the tone of the movie, I felt Robin was very well done.

Well, as you say, not "Robin" but Dick Grayson. Once Robin's there, all went downhill.

Yeah, it's too bad that those movies had to suck so bad. There were these brief glimpses of hope. I suppose it's all cause and effect. Burtons Batman exsisted to make people forget about Adam West. Schumacher's Batman exsisted because of WB and some people thinking "Returns" was too dark. And finally The Nolan films exsist because they finally realized a serious tone and a serious director was just what the franchise needed. That and "Batman & Robin" was the worst movie of all time.

 

[ALP]

Yes, Schumacher did a better Arkham than Burton.

Hey! Burton never did Arkham! How can Joel's be 'better'?

Lol, Joel wins by default...

Okay I give you that one. I was just lumping those things together

Scary, yes. But it's Batman

Yeah but like I said, it was the overall structure. When Batman drove to the turntable in '89, had he just drove one more foot the batmobile would have plummeted to his bloody death.

I can honestly say that the best part of "Forever" to me was actually Robin. Honestly, they handled that with more sincerity than anything else in the movie. Particularly the scene when Bruce convinces him to stay. I liked the Flying Graysons bit too. Of course as soon as they have Batman and Robin together in action going after the Riddler they just couldn't resist. "Holy rusted metal Batman!."

Agreed, I thought Robin was handled quite well in Batman Forever. His age was my only problem.

Yeah, it's too bad that those movies had to suck so bad. There were these brief glimpses of hope. I suppose it's all cause and effect. Burtons Batman exsisted to make people forget about Adam West. Schumacher's Batman exsisted because of WB and some people thinking "Returns" was too dark. And finally The Nolan films exsist because they finally realized a serious tone and a serious director was just what the franchise needed. That and "Batman & Robin" was the worst movie of all time.

This is very true. In the end B&R being so awful did lead us to the reboot. Had B&R just been on the same level of Batman Forever then the series would not have re-booted. Schumacher would have made Batman Triumphant and I heard he also wanted to adapt Year 1. So it may very well have been HIM who re-did the series ala Martin Campbell with Casino Royale. B&R being a complete mess was the only thing that guaranteed Schumacher got the shoe(pun intended).

 

[The Guard]

I know what he's written and it's (in its vast majority and always imo) drivel. The rooftop scene in BF was borderline as bad as an arlekin novel, in writing, acting and direction.

A Harlequin novel?

Eh. To a point. It's just Batman's absurd love life and his mission colliding.

That picture illustrates exactly why I did not like the caves in Burton's films.

If Batman took one step backwards he would have plummeted to his death. It was like numerous small avalanches...too scary!

I know. How cool was that?

What do you mean the line was to show he had lightened up? Lightened up from what, Burton's movies? Sorry not sure.

I mean that the line was clearly designed to show, RIGHT AWAY, that Batman had lightened up by this story. He made a crack about getting dinner out. That's not to say there weren't serious elements to what was happening. He was also skipping dinner to go fight crime. This stuff wasn't accidental. Even "This is why Superman works alone" in BATMAN & ROBIN has a point behind it, cheesy as it is.

To me the very best moments of BF was the serious stuff. Bruce reconciling with the death of his own parents after feeling it was his fault. That new images had been forming in old memories such as the red book... I loved that bit. And his relationship with Dick was well done too. If only Robin didn't look 20... and lucky for us, Tommy Lee Jones had to ruin any momentum the movie had going. But overall I thought Kilmer's Wayne was the closest to TAS and O'Neil.

I'll agree that the serious moments were the best, the childhood elements, with Bruce and Dick, but even some of the sillier moments had a point to them.

Robin was supposed to look 20. He was something like 18-20 in the script.
I don't really think Tommy Lee Jones or The Riddler managed to ruin anything about the film. Were there cringeworthy moments? Absolutely. But personally, while I almost can't stand the versions of the characters they play compared to what else is out there, both actors gave fantastic performances, even nuanced ones. And its tough to be that over the top and still have any sense of nuance. They pulled it off. Kilmer's Batman was a steady force that made almost every scene bearable. Doc Samson already said it, but Kilmer very much anchored the film. Val Kilmer, stiff as he was and voice modulation aside, was a fantastic Bruce Wayne/Batman in that movie.

I always found "The Bat Must Die" kind of cheesy.

I know, I know.

The problem I had with Batman Forever is that it didn't know what it wanted to be

I see where you're coming from, but I feel like structurally and tonally it's pretty obvious that it did. Serious, human drama with the occassional light hearted moments clearly juxtaposed with outlandish high adventure superhero/supervillain elements. There's a very clear approach to the film. It waffles in tone because it was designed to. The entire film is a story about the serious elements of Bruce Wayne's life and the absurd dangers of his alter ego, and Robin's inclusion into those elements.

 

[Gianakin_]

Eh. To a point. It's just Batman's absurd love life and his mission colliding.

Well, yeah, as much as I'm not feeling B89, I prefer the way Burton did it. Straight and serious, not a Milo Manara novel adaptation.

 

[El Payaso]

Lol, Joel wins by default...

Okay I give you that one. I was just lumping those things together

Yeah but like I said, it was the overall structure. When Batman drove to the turntable in '89, had he just drove one more foot the batmobile would have plummeted to his bloody death.

Oh yes. And hadn't the Batmobile stopped on time it would have run over Batman. Point is: it didn't. This is Batman, man. He lives it to the edge.

 

[finalrelief]

Batman and Robin is a bad toy commercial, but it's still fun to watch... I think making it a drinking game is fun...every time arnold makes a silly ice pun...drink! Man do I get hammered watching that movie lol

 

[The Guard]

Well, yeah, as much as I'm not feeling B89, I prefer the way Burton did it. Straight and serious, not a Milo Manara novel adaptation.

Definitely.

 

[Marx]

I honestly don't think Nolan and company should try to top TDK. All they have to do is what they've always done - tell a great story.

 

[KILLING JOKER]

I honestly don't think Nolan and company should try to top TDK. All they have to do is what they've always done - tell a great story.

Exactly. It's the richness and depth of every Nolan film that makes him such a great filmmaker. I can't wait to see what he's putting together. Even better is the thought of such an amazing Batman trilogy. Finally.

 

[ALP]

Having watched BB again... there's very little I dislike. I don't have any problems with the dialogue like most of you do. The only thing I thought was meh were the cops talking about "the black tank" "flying on rooftops."

 

[GothamAlleys]

Having watched BB again... there's very little I dislike.

*thumbs up*

 

[jazzmatik]

I think it will definitely be topped by a technical standpoint, especially after seeing Inception. I have no doubt that it will "look" stunning. I can't wait to see this in IMAX. We'll just have to see how the story unfolds and how the characters develop to know it can be topped creatively.

 

[Darkest-Knight]

I'm positive it can (and hopefully will) be topped.