The Dark Knight Rises Can it be topped?

[Mister H.]

^ Agreed. I certainly hope it will be topped, as I'm one of those degenerate oddballs who was a tad bit disappointed in TDK.

 

[jazzmatik]

^ Agreed. I certainly hope it will be topped, as I'm one of those degenerate oddballs who was a tad bit disappointed in TDK.

The only thing that got under my skin was the recasting of Rachel Dawes. May I ask what disappointed you?

 

[Darkest-Knight]

The only thing that got under my skin was the recasting of Rachel Dawes. May I ask what disappointed you?

Well, at least we got a better actress.

 

[Bat-Mite]

Can't say I was disappointed with TDK as a whole, but I was certainly disappointed with certain aspects of it, such as the batvoice, the suit, and Gotham's rather plain appearance. I also felt that Two-Face's death was unnecessary, especially since Batman has easily avoided causing death in similar situations in other media. A batarang could have easily prevented the situation that happened, but I suppose that wouldn't have been quite as dramatic.

 

[returntovoid]

^ Agreed. I certainly hope it will be topped, as I'm one of those degenerate oddballs who was a tad bit disappointed in TDK.

I also have the same opinion.

 

[CJ]

I'm sure it will be a good movie, but without The Joker, there's no way it will top TDK.

 

[Darkest-Knight]

The quality of the movie doesn't depend on the presence of the Joker.
DKR can top its predecessor in many ways.

 

[CJ]

The Joker is Batman's greatest adversary. Not only is he crazy, charming, goofy and despicable, but he shares an odd "bond" if you will, with Batman. As said in TDK, Batman and him are the "freaks" they don't fit in society. Joker and Batman have parallels to each other, and are stuck in a never-ending battle that will go on forever. Batman is just as crazy as The Joker do to what he does, the only difference being Batman tries to uphold justice, while The Joker is against it entirely. They're yin and yang. Their relationship is very compelling, going beyond just a guy in a batsuit fighting a goofy clown.

And yes, The Joker is a funny, theaterical character that you love, but hate at the same time. He leaves behind calling cards, blows crap up and can send an entire city into complete chaos, all with a big ol' smile on his face. His presence was felt even when he wasn't onscreen.

How can you top that? With a shallow sex-appeal character? (Catwoman) An old bearded guy dressing up like Batman? (Strange) A 1-dimensional brute who's only 'superpower' is his muscles? (Bane) I think not.

And it wasn't just The Joker that made TDK so great. It was the sense of chaos it had, it was seeing everything in Bruce's life completely fall apart. The people of Gotham started to seriously hate Batman, he lost Rachel's affections, and later on, failed to save her from dying, having to bear all the guilt on his shoulders, eventually becoming a wanted man and fleeing off into the night.

I'm sure TDKR will be a good movie, but there is no way it will top TDK. Every last little detail of TDK came together perfectly to craft a masterpiece. The music, the casting, the cinematography, the story, the script, the choice of villains, Not to mention the viral marketing, the amazing artwork on the posters, the trailers and tv spots, and the hype surrounding the film. This wasn't just a movie. It was an EVENT. And The Joker was integral to all these aspects of the film. (The viral marketing especially) No other Batman villain has that type of presence.

I'm sure TDKR will be good. I'd like to see Bruce 'rise' from all of the hell he went through in TDK, and i'm sure Nolan will give us a satisfying ending, But in no way will it top TDK. Not without The Joker (The only two villains that could possibly come close to topping the Joker are Scarecrow and Two-Face. But Two-Face is dead as a doornail, and Scarecrow, well.. he was so horribly mishandled there's nothing they can do at this point to make him the badass he should have been..)

 

[returntovoid]

How can you top that? With a shallow sex-appeal character? (Catwoman) An old bearded guy dressing up like Batman? (Strange)

Hugo Strange and Catwoman etc. can be compelling characters but if you're going to bash these characters based on bias then many Batman fans are going to get on your case. I respect that you're not a fan of those two characters but it's not like these are two horrible or campy villains???

Contrary to that, I agree it will be tough to top TDK but I still think there's a chance to top it.

 

[CJ]

Hugo Strange and Catwoman etc. can be compelling characters but if you're going to bash these characters based on bias then many Batman fans are going to get on your case. I respect that you're not a fan of those two characters but it's not like these are two horrible or campy villains???

Contrary to that, I agree it will be tough to top TDK but I still think there's a chance to top it.

Well, I don't think they're bad characters. I just think they're just a HUGE step backward from villains like The Joker and Two-Face. Sorry if I came off as a bit rude.

I did like Catwoman in Batman Returns. But nowadays, (especially after Halle Berry's take on the character, yuck) It would be easy for a director to just cast a dumb bimbo like Megan Fox in the role and devote a large portion of the movie (and marketing campaign) to having her slink around seductively in a tight outfit, while any male characters in the film who happen to cross her path, look in awe with a "Dayummm!" expression. (This is exactly the type of thing I bet Zach Snyder will do if he takes over the franchise after Nolan..) People need to think of Selina Kyle as a person and not a sex object, and give her an good origin story in order to make her an interesting villain.

I think Catwoman has potential to work as a side-villain or something, but I don't think it's the right time to introduce her, since Rachel just died. Bruce needs to cope with that before he can start seeing other women. I'd like a large part of TDKR storyline to be about Bruce's emotions in regards to Rachel. (I don't want that subject to be just swept under the rug and forgotten about in TDKR) Perhaps while dealing with her death, it will open old wounds from his childhood, allowing the subject of Bruce's parents to be revisited.

Strange could work, just not as the lead-villain. And no Batman cosplaying.

Bane.. well.. I don't know much about the character. Just that he broke Batman's back once and likes to punch things, so he doesn't interest me. Maybe there's more to him that i'm just not aware of..

 

[returntovoid]

I did like Catwoman in Batman Returns. But nowadays, (especially after Halle Berry's take on the character, yuck) It would be easy for a director to just cast a dumb bimbo like Megan Fox in the role and devote a large portion of the movie (and marketing campaign) to having her slink around seductively in a tight outfit, while any male characters in the film who happen to cross her path, look in awe with a "Dayummm!" expression.

And you think that's how Nolan will portray the character???

I think Catwoman has potential to work as a side-villain or something, but I don't think it's the right time to introduce her, since Rachel just died. Bruce needs to cope with that before he can start seeing other women. I'd like a large part of TDKR storyline to be about Bruce's emotions in regards to Rachel. (I don't want that subject to be just swept under the rug and forgotten about in TDKR)

Dawes was just a romantic chance at a normal but not his soul-mate, considering she didn't fall for the real Bruce Wayne which is more or less Batman. He did however love her and got hurt by her death in TDK but he'll gradually realize in the next that she was not the one for him.

Strange could work, just not as the lead-villain. And no Batman cosplaying.

I agree with that, also about Bane.

 

[The Guard]

And yes, The Joker is a funny, theaterical character that you love, but hate at the same time. He leaves behind calling cards, blows crap up and can send an entire city into complete chaos, all with a big ol' smile on his face. His presence was felt even when he wasn't onscreen.

His presence was felt onscreen because people talked about him, which is generally the way a character's presence is felt onscreen when they are not onscreen. You could say what you said above about many other characters, less the "smile" perhaps, but plenty of Batman's foes have their unique and interesting elements.

How can you top that? With a shallow sex-appeal character? (Catwoman) An old bearded guy dressing up like Batman? (Strange) A 1-dimensional brute who's only 'superpower' is his muscles? (Bane) I think not.

It's just wildly apparent that you have no idea of the history of these characters nor the potential of the Batman mythology. Not even going to bother, other than to say:

Show the actual CONSEQUENCES of Batman and The Joker's battle. The breeding of more supervillains, inspired by The Joker, which allows his presence to be felt in an even more important way. Depict true strain between The Batman and his allies. Have an actual psychological exploration of what it means to be Batman...beyond bad things happening to people you know and care about because of someone else's actions. Similar action, slightly better detective work than stumbling on clues someone else provided for you and then told you about...

And TDK will be topped.

And it wasn't just The Joker that made TDK so great. It was the sense of chaos it had, it was seeing everything in Bruce's life completely fall apart. The people of Gotham started to seriously hate Batman, he lost Rachel's affections, and later on, failed to save her from dying, having to bear all the guilt on his shoulders, eventually becoming a wanted man and fleeing off into the night.

One wonders if there's any way to create any more chaos beyond a man kidnapping one person at a time and addressing Gotham via the airwaves, and threatening to blow up two, count them, two whole barges full of people.

Nah. Probably not.

The Batman mythology could NEVER get bigger or more intense than that.

Unless Batman's life were to fall apart even more if say...he had more than one dangerous Jokerlike psychopath to deal with...if someone found out his identity who was truly dangerous, if the people of Gotham hated him even more, and he failed to save a ton of people from dying all while still being a wanted man, and actually felt over guilt over something he had done or was going to do, not something someone else did.

I'm sure TDKR will be a good movie, but there is no way it will top TDK.

I wouldn't bet on it.

No other Batman villain has that type of presence.

Well, yeah. Because no other Batman villain is The Joker. But there are villains that have a presence all their own, that can, written properly, be just as interesting.

and Scarecrow, well.. he was so horribly mishandled there's nothing they can do at this point to make him the badass he should have been..)

I thought you said every last little detail came together perfectly...

 

[I Am The Knight]

As long as they don't do the earthquake thing.

 

[Conebone69]

^ Agreed. I certainly hope it will be topped, as I'm one of those degenerate oddballs who was a tad bit disappointed in TDK.

Im right there with you. I was a tad disappointed too, but that was probably my fault since my expectations were soo damn high. But it was still a good ass movie

I think TDK can be topped personally. If nolan has a good enough story for the third film, then I think it can top it

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I love TDK, and I wasn't let down by it, but one of the frustrating parts of Nolan films for myself is that they aren't like Hot Fuzz or Citizen Kane in rewatch terms. That is to say not like the action or quality of either, but that every single time I rewatch those two films I notice a new detail, a foreshadowing, a metaphor, a callback, a Chekov's gun that sees me appreciate them even more for the little details that are all connected to the film's meaning.

With Nolan's films, I always find myself still loving them, but loving them less after a while, because it is the flaws in the film that become more pronounced because of how Nolan constructs his films. Why do all the Joker's schemes work so perfectly even when it makes no sense (perhaps he put all his stats into luck)? Why are the only two female characters in the film blown up and revealed to be a traitor respectively? Why are no cops whatsoever sent to the Joker at the docks? Surely even in a crisis like that a few cops could be spared to capture the maniac that setup the hospital crisis? (Admittingly not as irritating as the first two).

Similarly, Inception has me noticing through every reviewing that there is far, far too much exposition in the film, and that Nolan didn't use enough
"show, don't tell". It didn't bother me to hear that the first two times because I needed the explanations to how everything worked, but after, when I know the rules, I realise just how much of the dialog is pure, talking-to-the-audience stuff.

 

[Darkest-Knight]

It's just wildly apparent that you have no idea of the history of these characters nor the potential of the Batman mythology. Not even going to bother, other than to say:

This.

 

[jazzmatik]

I think Catwoman has potential to work as a side-villain or something, but I don't think it's the right time to introduce her, since Rachel just died. Bruce needs to cope with that before he can start seeing other women. I'd like a large part of TDKR storyline to be about Bruce's emotions in regards to Rachel. (I don't want that subject to be just swept under the rug and forgotten about in TDKR) Perhaps while dealing with her death, it will open old wounds from his childhood, allowing the subject of Bruce's parents to be revisited.

I agree that Rachel's death shouldn't be swept under the rug either, but I also don't want a large part of TDKR storyline just to be about Bruce mourning her. It could be a plot element for Bruce to want to give up being Batman, but the inclusion of Selina Kyle/Catwoman (and other villains) could help Bruce realise who he is and where he comes from. I think a scene where he visits Rachel's and his parent's grave is essential if that is where this next film is going.

 

[jazzmatik]

I'm sure it will be a good movie, but without The Joker, there's no way it will top TDK.

A compelling story with lesser characters will almost always trump a lesser story with compelling characters.

 

[PreK]

I agree that Rachel's death shouldn't be swept under the rug either, but I also don't want a large part of TDKR storyline just to be about Bruce mourning her. It could be a plot element for Bruce to want to give up being Batman, but the inclusion of Selina Kyle/Catwoman (and other villains) could help Bruce realise who he is and where he comes from. I think a scene where he visits Rachel's and his parent's grave is essential if that is where this next film is going.

Again? I'd be hugely disappointed if they retread that path once more. I would like to think the ending of TDK signaled the beginning of a new path where Bruce has fully accepted the mantle, no matter the circumstances. If anything, I would be interested on the flipside of having Bruce needing an anchor from the outside world, to prevent him from being too consumed in his mission.

 

[jazzmatik]

Again? I'd be hugely disappointed if they retread that path once more. I would like to think the ending of TDK signaled the beginning of a new path where Bruce has fully accepted the mantle, no matter the circumstances. If anything, I would be interested on the flipside of having Bruce needing an anchor from the outside world, to prevent him from being too consumed in his mission.

That's true. If TDK ending was indeed Bruce fully accepting the mantle then it would be pointless to retread, but I still think having a scene where he visits her/parents grave is still a good idea.

 

[MisterStrange]

Well here is my (finalized and edited) take on Selina Kyle’s character in the Nolan-verse and how her inclusion in the film could realistically play out. I’m not suggesting that this film includes any of the suggestive material below, it’s just my ( a crazy Bat fan) thoughts on how Catwoman as a character could fit.

Selina Kyle is an eccentric, independently wealthy, green-eyed brunette who is undeniably beautiful beyond any one man’s imagination. Once a former model and always an avid cat-lover, Selina currently works by day as the secretary of Internal Affairs at Wayne Enterprises. By night, she stalks the cityscape as the self-imposed masked philanthropist known as the Catwoman. At first, Gotham Tonight broadcasts the Catwoman as an accomplice and continuer of the Batman and his work, angering both. To her disapproval of the city’s outcast view on vigilantes, the Catwoman debuts as something completely different than the knight and eventually earns a frowned upon fame among Gotham as its new master thief. Selina has armed herself with much of Batman’s very own WayneCorp tech (due to being a secretary with Wayne Enterprises). Donning a dark and daring parachuted leather vest, a slick black armor bodysuit with curved goggles under a wind resistant mask, Catwoman’s entire suit, from the retractable steel “claws” in her gloves and boots to the ‘ears’ on her head, vaguely resembles a cat. She carries around and effectively makes use of a leather bullwhip, that when not in action dangles from her side belt as an allusion to a “tail”.

As the Catwoman, Selina acts as a ‘Robin Hood’ type figure, robbing from the stuck-up rich and giving to the needy poor, while keeping a close watch over the East Side of Gotham in which she was raised. Soundly inspired by the Dark Knight, Catwoman interferes with numerous mob dealings. Attempting to put an end to various drug trafficking rings while stealing thousands of dollars from organizations such as the False Face Society, Catwoman inevitably creates an enemy within the Mafia and its crime lords such as the Black Mask. She constantly taunts criminals, usually with their own money and her own attractiveness. Continuing in a manner similar to that of the Caped Crusader, Selina takes down henchmen and thugs alike under the cover of the night’s natural camouflage. She is a well trained street fighter and an expert in hand-to-hand combat, able to hold her own even against Batman. Also a master escape artist and making fine use of her well-suited suit, street sense, “claws” and acrobatic ability, Selina is always managing to pull herself out of tight situations and avoid arrest from the police. However, unable to escape the inevitable, the Cat and the Bat meet on numerous occasions, at first to each other’s disbelief. After several encounters with each other a common ground is found, a loose alliance is established, and a strong bond is formed between the two as Catwoman’s pose appeals strongly to Batman, and his pose appeals strongly to her.

Often eluding the annoyance of being watched, yet constantly luring the Dark Knight into a game of sexual advance, she proves herself to be Batman’s equal in a manner that she mirrors him in almost every aspect. However, she will cross the line in times that he will not. This forces the so-called-hero to question whether or not his inspirational presence in Gotham is truly for the better or worse, all the while being encouraged by Catwoman to continue fighting as the underdog spirit he has always been. Even though she proves to be the backbone to the rise of Batman’s legacy, Catwoman manages to test him in a variety of ways that no other could, either on a daringly affectionate or extremely professional level. Selina’s overwhelming taste for the theatrics and her sexy appeal only further attracts the Bat to the Cat. As Catwoman exerts a distinct attraction to Batman, Selina exerts a distinct attraction to the emotionally unstable Bruce Wayne. Neither aware of the other’s secret identity, Selina and Bruce engage in a romantic relationship that is strained with the factors of the real world pressuring both to question their own motives as masked vigilantes. Though nowhere near as dedicated to fighting crime as Batman, Catwoman does make good of her deeds. Next to being independently wealthy, on account of her late night masquerading, Selina has formed countless charities across Gotham, investing in top medical research and fore-founding many educational programs.

 

[returntovoid]

Well here is my (finalized and edited) take on Selina Kyle’s character in the Nolan-verse and how her inclusion in the film could realistically play out. I’m not suggesting that this film includes any of the suggestive material below, it’s just my ( a crazy Bat fan) thoughts on how Catwoman as a character could fit.

Selina Kyle is an eccentric, independently wealthy, green-eyed brunette who is undeniably beautiful beyond any one man’s imagination. Once a former model and always an avid cat-lover, Selina currently works by day as the secretary of Internal Affairs at Wayne Enterprises. By night, she stalks the cityscape as the self-imposed masked philanthropist known as the Catwoman. At first, Gotham Tonight broadcasts the Catwoman as an accomplice and continuer of the Batman and his work, angering both. To her disapproval of the city’s outcast view on vigilantes, the Catwoman debuts as something completely different than the knight and eventually earns a frowned upon fame among Gotham as its new master thief. Selina has armed herself with much of Batman’s very own WayneCorp tech (due to being a secretary with Wayne Enterprises). Donning a dark and daring parachuted leather vest, a slick black armor bodysuit with curved goggles under a wind resistant mask, Catwoman’s entire suit, from the retractable steel “claws” in her gloves and boots to the ‘ears’ on her head, vaguely resembles a cat. She carries around and effectively makes use of a leather bullwhip, that when not in action dangles from her side belt as an allusion to a “tail”.

As the Catwoman, Selina acts as a ‘Robin Hood’ type figure, robbing from the stuck-up rich and giving to the needy poor, while keeping a close watch over the East Side of Gotham in which she was raised. Soundly inspired by the Dark Knight, Catwoman interferes with numerous mob dealings. Attempting to put an end to various drug trafficking rings while stealing thousands of dollars from organizations such as the False Face Society, Catwoman inevitably creates an enemy within the Mafia and its crime lords such as the Black Mask. She constantly taunts criminals, usually with their own money and her own attractiveness. Continuing in a manner similar to that of the Caped Crusader, Selina takes down henchmen and thugs alike under the cover of the night’s natural camouflage. She is a well trained street fighter and an expert in hand-to-hand combat, able to hold her own even against Batman. Also a master escape artist and making fine use of her well-suited suit, street sense, “claws” and acrobatic ability, Selina is always managing to pull herself out of tight situations and avoid arrest from the police. However, unable to escape the inevitable, the Cat and the Bat meet on numerous occasions, at first to each other’s disbelief. After several encounters with each other a common ground is found, a loose alliance is established, and a strong bond is formed between the two as Catwoman’s pose appeals strongly to Batman, and his pose appeals strongly to her.

Often eluding the annoyance of being watched, yet constantly luring the Dark Knight into a game of sexual advance, she proves herself to be Batman’s equal in a manner that she mirrors him in almost every aspect. However, she will cross the line in times that he will not. This forces the so-called-hero to question whether or not his inspirational presence in Gotham is truly for the better or worse, all the while being encouraged by Catwoman to continue fighting as the underdog spirit he has always been. Even though she proves to be the backbone to the rise of Batman’s legacy, Catwoman manages to test him in a variety of ways that no other could, either on a daringly affectionate or extremely professional level. Selina’s overwhelming taste for the theatrics and her sexy appeal only further attracts the Bat to the Cat. As Catwoman exerts a distinct attraction to Batman, Selina exerts a distinct attraction to the emotionally unstable Bruce Wayne. Neither aware of the other’s secret identity, Selina and Bruce engage in a romantic relationship that is strained with the factors of the real world pressuring both to question their own motives as masked vigilantes. Though nowhere near as dedicated to fighting crime as Batman, Catwoman does make good of her deeds. Next to being independently wealthy, on account of her late night masquerading, Selina has formed countless charities across Gotham, investing in top medical research and fore-founding many educational programs.

Great post.

 

[jazzmatik]

Great post.

I'll second that!

 

[jazzmatik]

Well here is my (finalized and edited) take on Selina Kyle’s character in the Nolan-verse and how her inclusion in the film could realistically play out. I’m not suggesting that this film includes any of the suggestive material below, it’s just my ( a crazy Bat fan) thoughts on how Catwoman as a character could fit.

Selina Kyle is an eccentric, independently wealthy, green-eyed brunette who is undeniably beautiful beyond any one man’s imagination. Once a former model and always an avid cat-lover, Selina currently works by day as the secretary of Internal Affairs at Wayne Enterprises. By night, she stalks the cityscape as the self-imposed masked philanthropist known as the Catwoman. At first, Gotham Tonight broadcasts the Catwoman as an accomplice and continuer of the Batman and his work, angering both. To her disapproval of the city’s outcast view on vigilantes, the Catwoman debuts as something completely different than the knight and eventually earns a frowned upon fame among Gotham as its new master thief. Selina has armed herself with much of Batman’s very own WayneCorp tech (due to being a secretary with Wayne Enterprises). Donning a dark and daring parachuted leather vest, a slick black armor bodysuit with curved goggles under a wind resistant mask, Catwoman’s entire suit, from the retractable steel “claws” in her gloves and boots to the ‘ears’ on her head, vaguely resembles a cat. She carries around and effectively makes use of a leather bullwhip, that when not in action dangles from her side belt as an allusion to a “tail”.

As the Catwoman, Selina acts as a ‘Robin Hood’ type figure, robbing from the stuck-up rich and giving to the needy poor, while keeping a close watch over the East Side of Gotham in which she was raised. Soundly inspired by the Dark Knight, Catwoman interferes with numerous mob dealings. Attempting to put an end to various drug trafficking rings while stealing thousands of dollars from organizations such as the False Face Society, Catwoman inevitably creates an enemy within the Mafia and its crime lords such as the Black Mask. She constantly taunts criminals, usually with their own money and her own attractiveness. Continuing in a manner similar to that of the Caped Crusader, Selina takes down henchmen and thugs alike under the cover of the night’s natural camouflage. She is a well trained street fighter and an expert in hand-to-hand combat, able to hold her own even against Batman. Also a master escape artist and making fine use of her well-suited suit, street sense, “claws” and acrobatic ability, Selina is always managing to pull herself out of tight situations and avoid arrest from the police. However, unable to escape the inevitable, the Cat and the Bat meet on numerous occasions, at first to each other’s disbelief. After several encounters with each other a common ground is found, a loose alliance is established, and a strong bond is formed between the two as Catwoman’s pose appeals strongly to Batman, and his pose appeals strongly to her.

Often eluding the annoyance of being watched, yet constantly luring the Dark Knight into a game of sexual advance, she proves herself to be Batman’s equal in a manner that she mirrors him in almost every aspect. However, she will cross the line in times that he will not. This forces the so-called-hero to question whether or not his inspirational presence in Gotham is truly for the better or worse, all the while being encouraged by Catwoman to continue fighting as the underdog spirit he has always been. Even though she proves to be the backbone to the rise of Batman’s legacy, Catwoman manages to test him in a variety of ways that no other could, either on a daringly affectionate or extremely professional level. Selina’s overwhelming taste for the theatrics and her sexy appeal only further attracts the Bat to the Cat. As Catwoman exerts a distinct attraction to Batman, Selina exerts a distinct attraction to the emotionally unstable Bruce Wayne. Neither aware of the other’s secret identity, Selina and Bruce engage in a romantic relationship that is strained with the factors of the real world pressuring both to question their own motives as masked vigilantes. Though nowhere near as dedicated to fighting crime as Batman, Catwoman does make good of her deeds. Next to being independently wealthy, on account of her late night masquerading, Selina has formed countless charities across Gotham, investing in top medical research and fore-founding many educational programs.

@MisterStrange, which actress do you want to portray Catwoman?

 

[JAK®]

Unless Nolan does something incredibly amazing this movie will not top TDK. And this is purely down to The Joker. Even if this next film is better directed, better scripted and better acted I have a feeling that people won't like it as much purely for that reason. Heath Ledger delivered an outstanding performance for an outstanding character. His death elevated it to legendary status.

Besides, Nolan needs to make Batman himself a more interesting protagonist, which I don't think he will do.