The Dark Knight Rises Can it be topped?

[Christmas]

I do not think TDK can be topped as a pop culture phenomenon. Certainly Nolan can make a better and more inventive film if he really tried.

 

[Doc Samson]

seriously? dude, there have been phenomenal batman stories being told since the 30's. stories superior to both BB and TDK combined. and you're telling me that after two movies there's no place to go?

Yeah, seriously. The question is topped. Comparing the stories of the comics, which have months if not years to develop, and the story of an action film is apples to oranges, at best.Do I think it can be topped as a far as quality, possibly, which I stated in my first post. But quality alone, is not what made TDK special. It was a whole host of things that caused so many people to flock to see it, with mostly a positive experience. Technically, I'm positive Nolan can make something better written, better directed, better acted, but that's all technical things.

He can't replace being the first movie to use IMAX for action scenes and all the hype that drove people to seeing it in IMAX for the first time.

He can't replace the first appearance of the Joker being redefined for a new generation in a way that no one saw coming. He can do it with second-tier characters, but will the impact be the same? This point right here people love to gloss over, as if these other villains can compare, they simply can't. Because of the Joker, the action, the dialogue, and the scenes themselves that make people remember this movie aren't even possible. What character would do a pencil trick, or recite these monologues to victims, or show up at a hospital dressed like a woman. The CHARACTER makes this possible.

Watching Bane throw him around or Catwoman kissing him can be cool no doubt, but honestly, is it going to top what a character like the Joker allows you to do as far as writing and constructing these wild scenes? Would Scarface be nearly as interesting if Tony Montana wasn't such a loose cannon? Would Star Wars be all that exciting if Darth Vader was nowhere in the mix? Is the Matrix all that cool without Agent Smith. As great a character Batman is in his own right, it's the villains he faces that make his stories so compelling, and almost every classic Batman story had the Joker in it in some capacity, big or small.

The Man who Laughs
The Killing Joke
The Dark Knight Returns
The Long Halloween
Arkham Asylum
Hush
5 way revenge
A death in the family
No man's land
Infinite crisis
Knightfall

And in Year One, he still pops up as the setup for the next adventure. Hell, he's even in The Mask of the Phantasm & Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, the two high marks for both series by most fan's estimation. There's a reason why, because the character itself is so off the wall and over the top it allows for great storytelling. You can't replace that. When you add to that having one of the more brilliant actors of this time undertaking such a huge character with fearlessness, and unfortuantely passing away, causing even more interest, it creates a pretty tough task if we're talking about not just matching but topping TDK.

He can't replace having Two-Face in the same movie with an equally great performance, unquestionably, two of the most recognizable villains not only in Batman lore, but comics in general. He can't replace the initial fever pitch the viral marketing sparked, any marketing this time will not have the same impact, because it won't be new. He can't replace alot of things, these are only a few that come to mind. The only thing to really do is try to go bigger, which almost all 3rd films in a trilogy do, which explains why almost all of them fail to achieve that goal. I'm positive a third can be great, on the level of BB, which in itself was great too. But the question isn't can it be great, it's can it be great & top TDK? And IMHO, no, it can't. What we will get, eventually, is just another case of diminishing returns...

 

[Christmas]

"He can't replace the first appearance of the Joker being redefined for a new generation in a way that no one saw coming."-Doc Samson

Good observation. Nolan can write an even more ingenious script for a third and direct it with more artistry and have it shot more beautifully, but the whole TDK experience from the hype to the oscar's won't be topped.

 

[Two-Face]

"In Nolan I trust..."

 

[Batman137]

third movie needs have have more scenes with a score too. their were too many scenes in TDK that abandoned a score in a scene that needed it. I also think if Batman 3 has GREAT viral marketing like TDK,theres no doubt that it will be better. TDK's marketing was almost better than the movie haha

 

[Motown Marvel]

Yeah, seriously. The question is topped. Comparing the stories of the comics, which have months if not years to develop, and the story of an action film is apples to oranges, at best.Do I think it can be topped as a far as quality, possibly, which I stated in my first post. But quality alone, is not what made TDK special. It was a whole host of things that caused so many people to flock to see it, with mostly a positive experience. Technically, I'm positive Nolan can make something better written, better directed, better acted, but that's all technical things.

He can't replace being the first movie to use IMAX for action scenes and all the hype that drove people to seeing it in IMAX for the first time.

He can't replace the first appearance of the Joker being redefined for a new generation in a way that no one saw coming. He can do it with second-tier characters, but will the impact be the same? This point right here people love to gloss over, as if these other villains can compare, they simply can't. Because of the Joker, the action, the dialogue, and the scenes themselves that make people remember this movie aren't even possible. What character would do a pencil trick, or recite these monologues to victims, or show up at a hospital dressed like a woman. The CHARACTER makes this possible.

Watching Bane throw him around or Catwoman kissing him can be cool no doubt, but honestly, is it going to top what a character like the Joker allows you to do as far as writing and constructing these wild scenes? Would Scarface be nearly as interesting if Tony Montana wasn't such a loose cannon? Would Star Wars be all that exciting if Darth Vader was nowhere in the mix? Is the Matrix all that cool without Agent Smith. As great a character Batman is in his own right, it's the villains he faces that make his stories so compelling, and almost every classic Batman story had the Joker in it in some capacity, big or small.

The Man who Laughs
The Killing Joke
The Dark Knight Returns
The Long Halloween
Arkham Asylum
Hush
5 way revenge
A death in the family
No man's land
Infinite crisis
Knightfall

And in Year One, he still pops up as the setup for the next adventure. Hell, he's even in The Mask of the Phantasm & Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, the two high marks for both series by most fan's estimation. There's a reason why, because the character itself is so off the wall and over the top it allows for great storytelling. You can't replace that. When you add to that having one of the more brilliant actors of this time undertaking such a huge character with fearlessness, and unfortuantely passing away, causing even more interest, it creates a pretty tough task if we're talking about not just matching but topping TDK.

He can't replace having Two-Face in the same movie with an equally great performance, unquestionably, two of the most recognizable villains not only in Batman lore, but comics in general. He can't replace the initial fever pitch the viral marketing sparked, any marketing this time will not have the same impact, because it won't be new. He can't replace alot of things, these are only a few that come to mind. The only thing to really do is try to go bigger, which almost all 3rd films in a trilogy do, which explains why almost all of them fail to achieve that goal. I'm positive a third can be great, on the level of BB, which in itself was great too. But the question isn't can it be great, it's can it be great & top TDK? And IMHO, no, it can't. What we will get, eventually, is just another case of diminishing returns...

it can be topped.

 

[gillberg2k1]

There's a few directions I think this film needs to take to really "top" the last film.

First of all, I think transitioning back into the traditional Batman elements is a necessity. If there's one thing we can use to figure out where the series needs to go, its history, and the elements that the series has gotten right thus far. We've seen an early Batman, learning to use his rage and that darkness inside to hopefully inspire Gotham into fixing itself, though this seems to backfire. In The Dark Knight, we find Bruce discovering his responsibility as Batman and what that means to the city. He can't always be a hero, and his mission must be his and his alone. At the end of The Dark Knight, we're left with a Batman that has matured a bit, but has also come face to face with the grim reality of his situation, and the notion that he, much like Harvey Dent, cannot escape his fate/destiny, as he has now "changed things...forever," and must take on the dual role as hero and "villain" while potentially watching his city destroy itself, much as The Joker has alluded to.

The next film also needs to be the film that finally takes Batman out of his seemingly darkest moments, most likely explored in the first half of the film as he is portrayed as the villain to Gotham, and allows him to redeem himself in the eyes of both the city of Gotham and himself. Internally, I think this is film to really explore the conflict of the three potential identities of Bruce Wayne. If there's ever a time to really explore Bruce "losing himself in his monster," this is the film to do it in. The debate has gone on for years over who is the real person and who is the mask: Batman, Bruce Wayne, or both. We've seen it hinted at in a very subtle way in the two previous installments, but I think it's time we fleshed out Nolan's ideas of just who the man inside really is, and his acceptance of that and his place in Gotham. Catwoman could potentially be used to mirror Bruce's temptation, his monster, who walks the line between hero and extreme vigilante. As Gotham falls further into the abyss, a stronger man, the hero, rises out of it's ashes, and we finally have the extreme dynamic that exists between this hero and his seemingly ill-fated kingdom he's so determined to protect.

As that character develops and hopefully allows Bruce to take center stage once again, Wayne Manor and the return of the cave should also develop and hopefully be finished by the time the film concludes, leaving us with the traditional Batman elements we've all fallen in love with over the years.

We also need to see those iconic shots we've all been waiting to see on film. It'd be great to finally see Bruce at his parents tombstone in the pouring rain, confronting his own demons and the struggle that rages on inside of himself and the city he's desperately looking to protect. It'd also be great to see Batman watching, and waiting, crouched and blended into a line of Gargoyles on a rooftop on a stormy night, watching, waiting.

I think what you'll end up with is something a bit more in line with the "definitive" Batman so many are still looking for. As great as TDK was, and as happy as I would be if it were the last in Nolan's Bat films, I think there's still those loose ends to tie up to truly leave the series with the fully developed, fully fleshed out Batman.

I think if you can combine those elements with a story as strong as TDKs, you'll have a very close to definitive Batman film, that's about Batman himself, and maybe even less about the villains, you could have a really strong film that bookends the series and leaves the audience satisfied, should Nolan decide to pack it up after number three.

 

[Attikus]

New Batmobile. Hero on the run from the law. The Rise of freaks running the underworld. hints of a Joker perhaps working with a guy who asks too many questions... and sweet redemption for everyone's favorite Crusader. THE DARK CRUSADER can top THE DARK KNIGHT... as long as the Nolans are back... and they will be. So our eyeballs will get reamed when the third installment is released!

 

[Attikus]

Well said GILBERG2K1!

I agree. We watched Bruce Wayne get lost and the Batman persona take over... now it's time for the return of Bruce Wayne... the flesh and blood person. Perhaps, even a semblance of a normal life... a wife and maybe the adoption of a small child who likes the circus will help humanize him... he will sill be Batman but instead of being an obsessive Knight, he will lead a more balanced life... kinda like a cop... but with cooler toys to catch the bad guys with... face it, we love Batman bcs we love Bruce Wayne. Bruce is human... Bruce is us.

 

[Two-Face]

That sorta reminds of Zorro, a masked hero with a wife and a kid.....

 

[TheScarecrow]

Of course it can be topped. TDK was far more than Ledger as The Joker and the movie would not have been half as good had it not been for the Harvey Dent arc. People focus way too much on The Joker.

 

[The Joker]

Of course it can be topped. TDK was far more than Ledger as The Joker and the movie would not have been half as good had it not been for the Harvey Dent arc. People focus way too much on The Joker.

Now now, don't be bitter just because Scarecrow got the shaft in these movies

People focus on the Joker because he was the best thing in TDK for most people. That doesn't take away from the greatness of Harvey Dent or any of the other characters. It's just that Joker is most people's fav.

He was that good.

 

[El Payaso]

Of course it can be topped. TDK was far more than Ledger as The Joker and the movie would not have been half as good had it not been for the Harvey Dent arc. People focus way too much on The Joker.

I agree on that: for me the Harvey Dent story was the best of the movie.

Joker of course was the most enjoyable by most people; he's the partyman, the one-man show. But Eckhardt, his Harvey Dent and his arc was simply the best in terms of development. Sometimes in showbusiness is like that: the thing that has mopst of the work and talent take a seat back so the "star" can shine even more.

 

[namtaB]

Sure. Anything can be topped. The real question is whether the Joker can be topped. And to that my answer is no. I don't read the comics, but I have never known a Batman villain to be more engaging than the Joker. He's the complete package of everything a powerful villain should be. I don't think that can be repeated again.

 

[Steyin]

In terms of praise, probably not. In terms of story and action, yes. As huge as a Batman fan as I am, I felt TDK was a bit of a let down. Not saying it wasn't great, but something was missing, and I can only hope that the next will finally give me the Batman film I've been waiting for.

 

[jmc]

Perhaps what also may hold B3 back is it's rating, Nolan went just about as far as you can go with the rating classification TDK got, perhaps for a third film to go that one step further it needs that higher rating, more violence, even sex scenes with Bruce and Selina, after all TDK was a more adult targeted film, perhaps it's time to stop ***** footing around worrying about selling toys and take the series to that next step.

 

[TheVileOne]

There's no earthly way really.

The hype and reception for The Dark Knight was so amazingly huge and positive there is no way another movie will come close for a long time.

In many ways it feels like the popularity of the franchise has peaked with the second film, as many movie franchises do.

I mean think about it, the chances of another Batman movie doing nearly as well as TDK are very slim.

With the Bourne movies, Bourne Supremacy built off of Identity. But then it got even bigger for a third movie. Same with LOTR.

 

[TheScarecrow]

Most thought Begins couldn't be topped either.

You avoid comparisons to The Joker by not having a main villain like The Joker.

Nolan has recognised how hard it is to make a great third movie, and has said many times he'd never do it unless he was sure he could do something new and better: do you really think he'd have signed on if he couldn't top it? TDK as a movie has lots of flaws. It has a great story with Harvey Dent and a great character in The Joker - but there are other great stories and other great characters in Batman lore.

 

[namtaB]

Way to contradict yourself there, bud.

He can be topped, and I'm thinking that what Nolan has in store for this next movie will AT LEAST match The Joker, whether he's matched by one villain or a pair of them, we won't know until we see the next movie.

Glad someone is ardently reading my posts. I guess since I rapidly glance over posts here I thought others do the same for mine. If you're that much of a fan, send me a PM and I'll mail you an autographed pic.

 

[batman11]

Glad someone is ardently reading my posts. I guess since I rapidly glance over posts here I thought others do the same for mine. If you're that much of a fan, send me a PM and I'll mail you an autographed pic.

Why make a post if you only expect it to be "glanced over"? Would you wanna be a hooker roaming the streets who is always "glanced over" by all the horny guys, or taken seriously for some real, money-making business? t:

Alright..that was a weird analogy, even for me.

 

[namtaB]

Why make a post if you only expect it to be "glanced over"? Would you wanna be a hooker roaming the streets who is always "glanced over" by all the horny guys, or taken seriously for some real, money-making business? t:

Alright..that was a weird analogy, even for me.

To quote Max Shreck, "I got better fish to fry." I'm here to have fun. I read and post out of enjoyment. And for me at least, enjoyment entails a relaxed attitude which occasionally spills into my posts. I'm not here to take anything or be taken seriously. There are plenty of other posters here who have this kind of attitude. So when people play 7th grade english teacher or break down a post line by line, its comical to me.

 

[RockyBatboa]

Glad someone is ardently reading my posts. I guess since I rapidly glance over posts here I thought others do the same for mine. If you're that much of a fan, send me a PM and I'll mail you an autographed pic.

LOL!


EPIC Win!

 

[RockyBatboa]

Why make a post if you only expect it to be "glanced over"? Would you wanna be a hooker roaming the streets who is always "glanced over" by all the horny guys, or taken seriously for some real, money-making business? t:

Alright..that was a weird analogy, even for me.

So, what exactly is your real life knowledge/experience with hookers?


And dont be shintzy on the details either.

 

[RockyBatboa]

To quote Max Shreck, "I got better fish to fry." I'm here to have fun. I read and post out of enjoyment. And for me at least, enjoyment entails a relaxed attitude which occasionally spills into my posts. I'm not here to take anything or be taken seriously. There are plenty of other posters here who have this kind of attitude. So when people play 7th grade english teacher or break down a post line by line, its comical to me.

Let me assure you, you are not the only one.

We may not have the same personality, but we definitely share the same attitude.

I come here to offer opinions, make a few jokes, and share my interest in Batman. Too many posters come here to play "Mr. Studious Batman Fan" with the constant quote breakdowns and lessons. Then when you give your opinion, if it differes with them, they patronize you and tell you how crazy you are. Then, when you beat them at they own game, they cry "Foul Play" or "Troll", and then whine to a mod, and get you banned for a day.


Damn, i just reminded myself of bad memories...


But rest assured, namtaB, i do understand, and am with ya on this.



You have a fan.



And back to your original post which sadly was sorely overlooked, i have to say that i think you gave the most insigtful opinion on this thread.

The DK, as a film in entirety, was somewhat overestimated in my opinion. It can be topped, improved, ect.

But the Joker-Ledger...? No way. He was PERFECT. Well-deserved Oscar on the way, one of the most memorable screeen performances ever, worked perfectly in the film, an excellent portrayal of a classic villian....much more difficult to top Ledger's Joker than the film itself.

 

[El Payaso]

Glad someone is ardently reading my posts. I guess since I rapidly glance over posts here I thought others do the same for mine. If you're that much of a fan, send me a PM and I'll mail you an autographed pic.

Jokes aside, if "anything can be topped" as you said yourself, then in your opinion Joker can be topped too.