The Winter Soldier Captain America 2: News and Speculation - - Part 11

[Broseph44]

I don't get the complaint that Steve Rogers was useless in The Avengers:

He took on Loki, straight off, no holds barred, with basically no armor.
He helped Tony get a handle on the Helicarrier, and yeah, he managed to knock a couple of Loki's goons off the Helicarrier, shooting at a couple too.
He took on Dave P. Chitauri (™ someone upthread who is brilliant!) several at a time, both on the ground with BW and Hawkeye and in a building where they were about to blow up a huge crowd of people, rescued civilians, took charge of first responders, and kicked much alien butt otherwise.

How people say he was "lame"/useless/couldn't hit a single guy in The Avengers is beyond me.

Agreed I think each character had enough to do and each got showcased well enough. People just love to complain.

I seem to be the only person who loves the new suit as is. The World War II variant suit we got glimpses of in the trailer was also terrific. As usual people are nitpicking a great design to death. The ears are exposed, the red-and-white stripes are making a comeback and the WWII suit is being honored. That's everything people have been whining for. There is not much more the producers can do to please fans and apparently nothing they do ever will.

Agreed and once again it's just people love to complain and nitpick. Each fanboy wants the suit catered exactly to their wishes. For any comic characters. There's only so much that can be done, and not everyone will ever be pleased. That's why I ignore most people haha.

 

[Xeno]

I don't get the complaint that Steve Rogers was useless in The Avengers:

He took on Loki, straight off, no holds barred, with basically no armor.
He helped Tony get a handle on the Helicarrier, and yeah, he managed to knock a couple of Loki's goons off the Helicarrier, shooting at a couple too.
He took on Dave P. Chitauri (™ someone upthread who is brilliant!) several at a time, both on the ground with BW and Hawkeye and in a building where they were about to blow up a huge crowd of people, rescued civilians, took charge of first responders, and kicked much alien butt otherwise.

How people say he was "lame"/useless/couldn't hit a single guy in The Avengers is beyond me.

QFT

It's the same ridiculous argument used against the Black Widow and Hawkeye, in spite of their obvious usefulness during the climactic battle. Some fans are simply convinced that the "mere human" Avengers are automatically useless and their bias blinds them to what actually went down in the movie. All three of them played important roles in the battle and they were involved in hands-on, boots-on-the-ground heroism in ways that the super powered heroes were not. Whedon spread the glory around brilliantly so that every member of the team was useful and effective in the battle.

 

[Broseph44]

Crazed fan boys. Enough said haha.

 

[herolee10]

I'm kind of confused though about the level of Captain America's strength. I know he's super strong but after hearing that he's capable of pushing a bulldozer across a field with relative ease (courtesy of the AOS episode), I would think that he'd able to send guys flying all around and through walls. Yet, based on the preview that we got of him fighting off the Shield agents inside the elevator, it didn't seem like he was that strong.

 

[Broseph44]

I'm kind of confused though about the level of Captain America's strength. I know he's super strong but after hearing that he's capable of pushing a bulldozer across a field with relative ease (courtesy of the AOS episode), I would think that he'd able to send guys flying all around and through walls. Yet, based on the preview that we got of him fighting off the Shield agents inside the elevator, it didn't seem like he was that strong.

We saw barely a few seconds of him fighting in the elevator....This is what I mean haha wow.

 

[Suzanne78]

QFT

It's the same ridiculous argument used against the Black Widow and Hawkeye, in spite of their obvious usefulness during the climactic battle. Some fans are simply convinced that the "mere human" Avengers are automatically useless and their bias blinds them to what actually went down in the movie. All three of them played important roles in the battle and they were involved in hands-on, boots-on-the-ground heroism in ways that the super powered heroes were not. Whedon spread the glory around brilliantly so that every member of the team was useful and effective in the battle.

I saw someone on Twitter point out that Widow and Batman basically are in the same boat with very similar powersets… and no one moans about Batman being "useless" and less of a badass because of it. Yet Widow gets piled on for being just that, useless and stupid and etc…. I won't speculate what that's about, but yeah. It's gross.

Same with Clint and his arrows… all 11 of them, thank you Saturday Night Live!

Same with Cap and his shield.

So silly.

 

[Suzanne78]

I'm kind of confused though about the level of Captain America's strength. I know he's super strong but after hearing that he's capable of pushing a bulldozer across a field with relative ease (courtesy of the AOS episode), I would think that he'd able to send guys flying all around and through walls. Yet, based on the preview that we got of him fighting off the Shield agents inside the elevator, it didn't seem like he was that strong.

Well, he did subdue them in about 5 mins. time. Maybe we could make an argument that Cap was trying to not fight too much since they were SHIELD people and he worked and knew them, but not even the magnetic cuffs were enough to hold him. Slow him down a little, but he still kicked all the ash with them on.

We also don't know how strong those tasersticks Rumlow and Co. were wielding against him were. Electric shocks may have impeded his fighting abilities…

This is, by far, the geekiest wank I've ever posted. t:

 

[Broseph44]

Or also we haven't seen the seen yet, we saw mere seconds of it quickly. So yeah there's that too.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

I don't get the complaint that Steve Rogers was useless in The Avengers:

He took on Loki, straight off, no holds barred, with basically no armor.
He helped Tony get a handle on the Helicarrier, and yeah, he managed to knock a couple of Loki's goons off the Helicarrier, shooting at a couple too.
He took on Dave P. Chitauri (™ someone upthread who is brilliant!) several at a time, both on the ground with BW and Hawkeye and in a building where they were about to blow up a huge crowd of people, rescued civilians, took charge of first responders, and kicked much alien butt otherwise.

How people say he was "lame"/useless/couldn't hit a single guy in The Avengers is beyond me.

I dislike Steve's portrayal in the Avengers, for reasons that go even beyond his fight scenes.

I probably won't go as far as call him useless, but he was often shown in less flattering situations than his teammates.

Take his fight with Loki, where he gets utterly trounced. I get that Steve doesn't stand a chance against an Asgardian, but he still could have looked badass in a hopeless fight, as opposed to helpless. And then needing Iron Man to save his ash.

Then you've got the Hellicarier scene, where sure enough, Steve takes down two random mooks, but then can't hit the third, despite being a trained soldier, and then literally almost slipping to his death because the world's greatest tactician can't see where his feet are.

He had some good scenes, but they are fewer than those of characters with less screentime. He needed rescuing three times over the movie, and twice were from random, nameless henchmen.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Well, he did subdue them in about 5 mins. time. Maybe we could make an argument that Cap was trying to not fight too much since they were SHIELD people and he worked and knew them, but not even the magnetic cuffs were enough to hold him. Slow him down a little, but he still kicked all the ash with them on.

We also don't know how strong those tasersticks Rumlow and Co. were wielding against him were. Electric shocks may have impeded his fighting abilities…

This is, by far, the geekiest wank I've ever posted. t:

If that was the entire fight scene in the elevator, it took him more like 1 minute to subdue all of those guys.

I'm kind of confused though about the level of Captain America's strength. I know he's super strong but after hearing that he's capable of pushing a bulldozer across a field with relative ease (courtesy of the AOS episode), I would think that he'd able to send guys flying all around and through walls. Yet, based on the preview that we got of him fighting off the Shield agents inside the elevator, it didn't seem like he was that strong.

Keep in mind that they were in an elevator with mostly glass windows. Cap probably didn't want to send anyone falling to their deaths by throwing them through a window. And sending anyone crashing into a metal wall on the elevator probably would have crushed their bones and killed them instantly instead of sending them through it. These are only humans that Cap is fighting.

 

[herolee10]

Well, he did subdue them in about 5 mins. time. Maybe we could make an argument that Cap was trying to not fight too much since they were SHIELD people and he worked and knew them, but not even the magnetic cuffs were enough to hold him. Slow him down a little, but he still kicked all the ash with them on.

We also don't know how strong those tasersticks Rumlow and Co. were wielding against him were. Electric shocks may have impeded his fighting abilities…

This is, by far, the geekiest wank I've ever posted. t:

Just to be clear, I'm not doubting his abilities. The truth is, I'm not well versed with how strong Captain America is supposed to be, so I wasn't sure on how strong he's supposed to be portrayed as in the films other than being stronger than an average human being.

Plus, I just figured that if he's capable of pushing a bulldozer across a field then he could somewhat easily throw people through the elevator walls.

 

[herolee10]

Keep in mind that they were in an elevator with mostly glass windows. Cap probably didn't want to send anyone falling to their deaths by throwing them through a window. And sending anyone crashing into a metal wall on the elevator probably would have crushed their bones and killed them instantly instead of sending them through it. These are only humans that Cap is fighting.

Ah good points; makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Ah good points; makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

No problem, man.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Cap came off pretty good in Avengers imo but that one bit where he's on the catwalk firing at the mook wasn't a highlight for me either. I dunno if Whedon was trying to illustrate Steve's inexperience with modern firearms or what but he's spraying the thing like it's a fireman's hose that he doesn't quite have control of.

Of course in InternetLand saying this automatically makes someone an unreasonable, impossible to satisfy enraged fanboy who's only around for the complainin'.

So there's that.

 

[InnerWarrior]

Cap came off pretty good in Avengers imo but that one bit where he's on the catwalk firing at the mook wasn't a highlight for me either. I dunno if Whedon was trying to illustrate Steve's inexperience with modern firearms or what but he's spraying the thing like it's a fireman's hose that he doesn't quite have control of.

Of course in InternetLand saying this automatically makes someone an unreasonable, impossible to satisfy enraged fanboy who's only around for the complainin'.

So there's that.

Yep, that was the part that had me and my brother scratching our hands like "What?!" He fought in World War 2 and has used guns before! He was supposed to be a SUPER SOLDIER!

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Things like that are what I didn't wanna see in Avengers and we still ended up getting it, so all I know is Cap better improve in AoU because 2015 is the time to really step it up.

From what I've seen of Cap in this movie he's lethal as hell.

 

[Xeno]

Just to be clear, I'm not doubting his abilities. The truth is, I'm not well versed with how strong Captain America is supposed to be, so I wasn't sure on how strong he's supposed to be portrayed as in the films other than being stronger than an average human being.

Plus, I just figured that if he's capable of pushing a bulldozer across a field then he could somewhat easily throw people through the elevator walls.

The bulldozer-pushing bit is based on a scene from Agents of SHIELD. It's an open question whether or not the show's writers are well enough acquainted with Captain America's strength level to make that comparison valid. They might not even have been aware of the actual weight of that piece of equipment, for that matter.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

The bulldozer-pushing bit is based on a scene from Agents of SHIELD. It's an open question whether or not the show's writers are well enough acquainted with Captain America's strength level to make that comparison valid. They might not even have been aware of the actual weight of that piece of equipment, for that matter.

I have to disagree with that. Whedon is closely connected with the show, as is Feige. I'm sure they okay the scripts, plots, characters, etc. So they were most likely well aware of the bulldozer line, and with this show existing in the MCU I can't see why they wouldn't be well-acquainted with every detail of AoS. If Cap was mentioned to be able to push a bulldozer across a football field in record time, then he can definitely do it.

 

[Yellow Cyclone]

i thought the bulldozer bit involved more extremis than anything else

 

[Repulsor Blast]

to those who are defending captain america in the avengers, just know that even the creators of the winter soldier thought he is yet to realise his true potential. they are making him a much more efficient fighter etc in the upcoming film.

i think we should compare what rogers did in the avengers to what he pulls off in the winter soldier as a way to settle this debate.

but yeah, until then, my opinion is that, compared to thor, hulk and iron man, cap was short changed in the avengers. he wasn't useless, but i think they made him a bit too close to black widow and hawkeye, when he should fall more on the side of the rest of the big four in terms of fist-pump-worthy feats.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Finding the weight of that dozer took me maybe 20 seconds via Google. I do not like the idea that someone in charge of this show couldn't manage that minimum level of research. And yet the show consistently comes off lazy as hell, just like that example.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

that bulldozer line bugged me to no end. but the show is so ancillary to the mcu that i have since elected to ignore it, sam jackson style.

 

[Xeno]

I have to disagree with that. Whedon is closely connected with the show, as is Feige. I'm sure they okay the scripts, plots, characters, etc. So they were most likely well aware of the bulldozer line, and with this show existing in the MCU I can't see why they wouldn't be well-acquainted with every detail of AoS. If Cap was mentioned to be able to push a bulldozer across a football field in record time, then he can definitely do it.

That bulldozer weighs over 50 tons. Captain America has never been shown to be strong enough to move something so heavy, either in the MCU or in the comics. There is no way that Rumlow and his SHIELD agent mooks should have been able to put up the fight they did if Steve Rogers is that strong. That is why I am convinced that the writers of AOS got it wrong.

Perhaps a possible explanation is that Mike Peterson's trainer was lying to him to goad him to do better. That's the only logical out I can come up with.

 

[TheVileOne]

He's shown some pretty impressive feats of strength in the comics before. It just depends on who is writing him really.

In the comic crossovers, despite his having increased strength and senses, he and Batman were shown to be very evenly matched.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

i always thought cap was as strong as humanly possible. he is right on the precipice of having "super" strength. ditto his other abilities. i like that about him.