The Winter Soldier Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 6

[ctsketch]

If I was Peggy and my war buddy, friend, and maybe a bit more didn't visit me after 70 years being presumed dead I'd be like "Well f*** him too!"

 

[Crimson King]

Ever hear of some old midlife-crisis guy or girl trying to look up their high school sweetheart to see if there's still a spark there after 20-30 years? Happens a lot. I've seen it personally, on more than one occasion, to my sister and a cousin as well. Not a pretty sight, especially since that "high school sweetheart" is usually happily married with kids, a career, and the whole nine yards. There's nothing even remotely romantic about those "reunions" --- just stalkerific and pathetic awkwardness that often winds up with the police and restraining orders getting involved. Now imagine that same scenario, with 70 years separating them....and only *one* of the "partners" aging commensurately. That's what you're talking about here.

I think the bolded part of that is where you start to miss the point of the Cap/Peggy reunion. He's not going there to see if there's still a spark. Like Suzanne said, it would be more weird if he DIDN'T go see her, considering their history. And the argument that he'd only be making her feel guilty doesn't hold water. If she feels guilty for some reason, isn't it better to go talk to her face-to-face and relieve her of her guilt? To let her die thinking she did something wrong is way more cruel and sadistic than what you're making Steve's visit out to be.

 

[destronomics]

How is Steve visiting someone who was important to him "sappy melodrama" and a man in a red white and blue skin tight outfit who represents America fighting his old sidekick who has a red star on his cyborg arm NOT melodrama?

 

[Suzanne78]

I think the bolded part of that is where you start to miss the point of the Cap/Peggy reunion. He's not going there to see if there's still a spark. Like Suzanne said, it would be more weird if he DIDN'T go see her, considering their history. And the argument that he'd only be making her feel guilty doesn't hold water. If she feels guilty for some reason, isn't it better to go talk to her face-to-face and relieve her of her guilt? To let her die thinking she did something wrong is way more cruel and sadistic than what you're making Steve's visit out to be.

Right!

Think about it; would you have the same reaction if Cap was going to visit James Falsworth, Jacques Dernier, Jim Morita, Gabe Jones, or Dum Dum?

It's not going to be rekindling some spark, or romance. It's closure for both characters. Perhaps even a way to keep Peggy through any more Cap movies, by being Cap's confidant in the modern day setting.

If, if they dance, too, I'm not talking about a romantic moment for either characters. I'm envisioning something like Cap and Peggy each keeping their promise to the other, to finally have one last dance before Peggy departs the mortal coil. It's still a way for them to have closure on what they were to each other. For Steve, the pain of losing Peggy is still acute, if that deleted scene is anything to go by. For Peggy, possibly seeing the Chitauri attack in NY opens all the old wounds for Cap and she feels guilt for leaving him in the ice so long ago, for giving up the search for his body, and for not knowing what could've been.

I'm not advocating any romance for them. Although now that I see all the commotion the possibility is causing for some, I'd say go for it Cap! Hee!

 

[peterparker0077]

Btw, Not sure if someone already mentioned it, but Bucky was having some serious issues getting onto that car hood in the fight video. Pretty funny... wonder if that was his stunt guy or if that was sabastian. Tight pants suck some times, lol

 

[destronomics]

dude, cherokeesam, Peggy was Steve's friend first. Would you be throwing this kind of a fit if he was visiting Gabe or any of the other Howling Commandos in the retirement home? Peggy is one of Steve's only living friends in the entire world, what does it say about Steve as a FRIEND that he doesn't ****ing visit her?

 

[ctsketch]

Btw, Not sure if someone already mentioned it, but Bucky was having some serious issues getting onto that car hood in the fight video. Pretty funny... wonder if that was his stunt guy or if that was sabastian. Tight pants suck some times, lol

yes! haha


"Take 12! Action, CUT DAMMIT!"

 

[TheVileOne]

How about visiting Old Peg in the nursing home? I think Cap would be smart enough to realize how ****ing inappropriate that is, too.

Joss realized how inappropriate it is, and he alludes to it in that deleted scene from Avengers. Cap takes a look at Peggy's SHIELD file, sees that she's still alive, sees a phone number there, realizes it would be wrong to try to contact her, and realizes he has to move on with his life, and that there's no question that Peggy moved on with hers. He quietly closes the file, and goes on.

And that's where it should end, period. This "last dance with Old Peggy" **** is maudlin as hell. And it portrays Steve Rogers as a self-absorbed S.O.B., which he most certainly is not. What does he hope to gain from this? "Closure?" Closure for what? Seeing an old lady who went on and lived a full life without him being part of it at all? What's Peggy supposed to get out of it? The opportunity to feel ****ty because she and Howard Stark clearly didn't try hard enough to find Cap's body, since he was, you know, right there in the frickin' iceberg the whole time, still very much alive? I'm sure THAT will make her feel all tingly inside.

God. I hope to hell they leave this **** on the cutting room floor. You guys think this is some kind of heartwarming romantic scene, but it's not. It's maudlin melodrama that makes Steve Rogers look like a selfish ass. Even more so because it's taken him, what, 2 years to finally balls up to do the *wrong* thing and screw up this poor old woman's last days by re-lighting a spark that died 70 years ago?

Stupid. Just stupid.

That's not what Joss Whedon said.

 

[Wade Garrett]

It kinda makes me recall the last scene in Titanic. Where they pan across Rose's photos and you see that she went on to live a full life and do exciting things without Jack, but then in her (dream or heaven whichever) Her thoughts clearly go back to Jack.

Agent Carter will have clearly went on to live her life, just as the howling commandoes and Howard Stark. But I'm sure from time to time she thought of Steve. Obviously when they meet both of them are going to know they can't have a relationship again, that would be silly to even think that. But Peggy was always his reassurance in the 1940's that we was a hero. She was the one that pushed ( her pep talk after Erskine dies, Her rally just before he sets out to find Bucky, and then again regarding Bucky's death).. I think it would be nice to have a scene where a distraught Steve after facing the events of Winter Soldier, and seeing the obvious corruption of the modern day asks Peggy, "How do I live in this world?" She smiles, brushes his hair slightly and says " By staying who you are, not the perfect soldier, but a good man". This isn't a romantic scene, this is a bittersweet scene. It continues the tragedy that was TFA, thats what Steve's story is a tragedy, just like Banner's there is no happy ending for him. He can't just blow up his suits and have a merry christmas with the love of his life. His girl has moved on without him, his best friend has moved on without him(in a bad way), and the world itself has moved on without him. But through it all he pushes forward, as a good man.

 

[Suzanne78]

dude, cherokeesam, Peggy was Steve's friend first. Would you be throwing this kind of a fit if he was visiting Gabe or any of the other Howling Commandos in the retirement home? Peggy is one of Steve's only living friends in the entire world, what does it say about Steve as a FRIEND that he doesn't ****ing visit her?

This pretty much right here!

It's a staple of the Captain America comics that he visits his old vet buddies. Peggy is his old vet buddy here. She also means a whole lot more to him, but regardless, she's someone he went through the ringer with in WWII.

This isn't a romantic scene, this is a bittersweet scene. It continues the tragedy that was TFA, thats what Steve's story is a tragedy, just like Banner's there is no happy ending for him. He can't just blow up his suits and have a merry christmas with the love of his life. His girl has moved on without him, his best friend has moved on without him(in a bad way), and the world itself has moved on without him. But through it all he pushes forward, as a good man.

Yep, yep, yep! Perfectly put and really does emphasize the core of Steve Rogers' "a good man" and a real hero but a man out of his time and searching for a way to live in the new world.

 

[Crimson King]

For the record, this is what Joss said about the deleted scene in Avengers:

One of the best scenes that I wrote was the beautiful and poignant scene between Steve and Peggy [Carter] that takes place in the present. And I was the one who was like, Guys, we need to lose this. It was killing the rhythm of the thing. And we did have a lot of Cap, because he really was the in for me. I really do feel a sense of loss about what’s happening in our culture, loss of the idea of community, loss of health care and welfare and all sorts of things. I was spending a lot of time having him say it, and then I cut that.

 

[peterparker0077]

I hope CherokeeSam never watches Highlander

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I think the bolded part of that is where you start to miss the point of the Cap/Peggy reunion. He's not going there to see if there's still a spark. Like Suzanne said, it would be more weird if he DIDN'T go see her, considering their history. And the argument that he'd only be making her feel guilty doesn't hold water. If she feels guilty for some reason, isn't it better to go talk to her face-to-face and relieve her of her guilt? To let her die thinking she did something wrong is way more cruel and sadistic than what you're making Steve's visit out to be.

dude, cherokeesam, Peggy was Steve's friend first. Would you be throwing this kind of a fit if he was visiting Gabe or any of the other Howling Commandos in the retirement home? Peggy is one of Steve's only living friends in the entire world, what does it say about Steve as a FRIEND that he doesn't ****ing visit her?

It kinda makes me recall the last scene in Titanic. Where they pan across Rose's photos and you see that she went on to live a full life and do exciting things without Jack, but then in her (dream or heaven whichever) Her thoughts clearly go back to Jack.

Agent Carter will have clearly went on to live her life, just as the howling commandoes and Howard Stark. But I'm sure from time to time she thought of Steve. Obviously when they meet both of them are going to know they can't have a relationship again, that would be silly to even think that. But Peggy was always his reassurance in the 1940's that we was a hero. She was the one that pushed ( her pep talk after Erskine dies, Her rally just before he sets out to find Bucky, and then again regarding Bucky's death).. I think it would be nice to have a scene where a distraught Steve after facing the events of Winter Soldier, and seeing the obvious corruption of the modern day asks Peggy, "How do I live in this world?" She smiles, brushes his hair slightly and says " By staying who you are, not the perfect soldier, but a good man". This isn't a romantic scene, this is a bittersweet scene. It continues the tragedy that was TFA, thats what Steve's story is a tragedy, just like Banner's there is no happy ending for him. He can't just blow up his suits and have a merry christmas with the love of his life. His girl has moved on without him, his best friend has moved on without him(in a bad way), and the world itself has moved on without him. But through it all he pushes forward, as a good man.

 

[cherokeesam]

dude, cherokeesam, Peggy was Steve's friend first. Would you be throwing this kind of a fit if he was visiting Gabe or any of the other Howling Commandos in the retirement home? Peggy is one of Steve's only living friends in the entire world, what does it say about Steve as a FRIEND that he doesn't ****ing visit her?

I'd be throwing a fit if he showed up to visit Gabe or any of the other Howlers and started frickin' slow-dancing with them.

It kinda makes me recall the last scene in Titanic. Where they pan across Rose's photos and you see that she went on to live a full life and do exciting things without Jack, but then in her (dream or heaven whichever) Her thoughts clearly go back to Jack.

Agent Carter will have clearly went on to live her life, just as the howling commandoes and Howard Stark. But I'm sure from time to time she thought of Steve. Obviously when they meet both of them are going to know they can't have a relationship again, that would be silly to even think that. But Peggy was always his reassurance in the 1940's that we was a hero. She was the one that pushed ( her pep talk after Erskine dies, Her rally just before he sets out to find Bucky, and then again regarding Bucky's death).. I think it would be nice to have a scene where a distraught Steve after facing the events of Winter Soldier, and seeing the obvious corruption of the modern day asks Peggy, "How do I live in this world?" She smiles, brushes his hair slightly and says " By staying who you are, not the perfect soldier, but a good man". This isn't a romantic scene, this is a bittersweet scene. It continues the tragedy that was TFA, thats what Steve's story is a tragedy, just like Banner's there is no happy ending for him. He can't just blow up his suits and have a merry christmas with the love of his life. His girl has moved on without him, his best friend has moved on without him(in a bad way), and the world itself has moved on without him. But through it all he pushes forward, as a good man.

Now *this* makes sense. This would work. Sashaying up to the old folks' home to have that slow-dance he promised to his old gal (literally....) *doesn't* work.

And it would work if *Peggy* is the one who contacts *Steve,* not vice versa. Again, if Steve initiates the visit for his own "closure," it makes him look like a selfish d-bag. And I'm positive that's why he wouldn't have tried to contact her himself. But if Peggy calls *him,* not just for her own closure, but to, in a sense, give Steve the freedom and "permission" to cut his ties with the past, *that* works.

I hope CherokeeSam never watches Highlander

I have.

Different story. In Highlander, that's his wife. That's "'til death do us part." That's where we see *her* age normally into an old woman, while he spends the same frame of time at her side, but unaging. Steve didn't do that, and Peggy isn't his wife.

 

[destronomics]

a) slow dance is all theory, nothing in the photos or in any of the known information has even suggested actual fact dancing will occur

b) what are you, the town from Footloose? If she wants to dance and he wants to dance, why the **** shouldn't they?

 

[Crimson King]

Way to cherry pick your response, Sam

 

[Whiskey Tango]

lol

Sure will be nice to get more setpics.

 

[peterparker0077]

I have.

Different story. In Highlander, that's his wife. That's "'til death do us part." That's where we see *her* age normally into an old woman, while he spends the same frame of time at her side, but unaging. Steve didn't do that, and Peggy isn't his wife.

And what about all his old friends? What about Rachel who was his adopted daughter - then possible lover - then friend- then almost mother like to him? Not mention the TV show and Duncan.... lol

 

[Godzilla2000]

I'm kind of bumming because someone in another forum, think the Thor forum, let loose the I.D. of the Winter Soldier based on their comic knowledge without spoilering it first. That kind of twist I really did not want to know in advance.

 

[ctsketch]

I'm kind of bumming because someone in another forum, think the Thor forum, let loose the I.D. of the Winter Soldier based on their comic knowledge without spoilering it first. That kind of twist I really did not want to know in advance.

There is probably literally not a single thread on this CA:TWS forum you could read that did NOT mention that... if you don't want to be spoiled, you're in the wrong place

 

[Silvermoth]

Yeah, that information is in the public sphere now. It's not a secret anymore unless you want to completely avoid the Internet

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Yeah, that information is in the public sphere now. It's not a secret anymore unless you want to completely avoid the Internet

It's been out there for almost a decade so it really shouldn't come off as any surprise.

 

[Hyde]

People didn't know Winter Soldier was Bucky?

 

[Webfoot Hero]

People didn't know Winter Soldier was Bucky?

Apparently. A quick Google search would easily have told them that. Anyone who says they're surprised is not paying enough attention.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

There are probably some out there that think The Winter Soldier refers to Captain A....you know, because he's a soldier who froze.