Captain America: Brave New World - News & Speculation Thread

[Spider-Fan]

You’re taking this the wrong way. The takeaway shouldn’t be, “no way this is the worst of the bunch” it should be more, “I guess audiences are starting to want more out of these movies.”

I think this is just it. The general audience isn't invested in the current multiverse narrative. So a movie that's essentially like IM2 or TDW quality doesn't cut it anymore, and that's the tier I think this movie lives in. Even in the post movie ranking thread on here, most people have this as a bottom 5 or 10 MCU film. Marvel is still putting out movies people like, just not consistently and that's hurting the viability of the more mid movies.

 

[kguillou]

I don't think what the audience wants has changed that much. What's really changed is a lack of compelling connectivity and meta narrative between MCU films. The Thanos/Infinity Stone stuff was compelling, as were the ongoing and evolving relationships like Tony/Steve, Steve/Bucky, Peter Parker/Tony, Thor/Loki, Thor/Bruce/Hulk, Wanda/Vision, Bruce/Hulk/Natasha, Natasha/Clint, Peter Quill/Yondu, Peter Quill/Gamora, and Thanos/Gamora/Nebula, which raised up interest in the MCU as a whole, as if it was an ongoing ensemble TV show and everyone wanted to tune in to the next episode to see what happens next. Phase 4-5 doesn't have that, the success of NWH, MoM, WF, GotG3, and DP&W won't mean jack **** when it comes to interest in BNW because there's no compelling connection. Oddly, the main connection to another Phase 4-5 MCU film is the connection to Eternals, but Eternals was an underperforming movie and the connection is not character driven or building up to anything specific.

Literally the entire meta narrative of the multiverse saga films is "the multiverse exists and eventually an incursion will make it collapse into a big crossover mishmash". Which, sure, will be really fun fanservice and I'm sure the Avengers movies themselves will be sucessful because of it (as were the previous multiverse crossover films), but as a meta narrative it's basically nothing.

I think you absolutely nailed it. How did Feige and the mcu braintrust drop the ball this bad on the meta narrative and the connectivity between these movies? Most of the movies post endgame have lived in a vaccum with nothing tying them together. Theres no narrative build up, we dont get exciting post credits scenes anymore that tell the audience “this is where we’re going” like in the Infinity Saga.

 

[DyeLorean]

Remember this? (????????)

 

[donuts]

I think you absolutely nailed it. How did Feige and the mcu braintrust drop the ball this bad on the meta narrative and the connectivity between these movies? Most of the movies post endgame have lived in a vaccum with nothing tying them together. Theres no narrative build up, we dont get exciting post credits scenes anymore that tell the audience “this is where we’re going” like in the Infinity Saga.

I strongly disagree. You can only rely on interconnectivity for so much.

I believe that it's much simpler than that.

Most recent Marvel stuff either lacked vision, had weak scripts, or was poorly cobbled together between reshoots and uncertainty.

People have responded to movies which looked like they could stand on their own and be entertaining: Spider-Man No Way Home, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3, Deadpool and Wolverine... and many seem to be curious about Fantastic Four (and even Thunderbolts).

Loki, X-Men '97 and Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man on the TV side.

Make better movies. Get a better response.

The novelty of the cinematic universe has worn off. You can't just thrive on connectivity.

 

[Zantera]

I got excited for a second when Thunderbolt Ross brought up the idea of Sam reuniting the Avengers, because I thought "Oh yeah we're like 12 movies post Endgame and I have no idea who would even be in the team at this point" but then that plotline is just brushed over.

For me they've just really dropped the ball with phase 4 and phase 5 to build something consistent where you have a strong idea of where things are going. Shang-Chi was one of the first movies post Endgame and most people liked that movie. Yet we haven't seen his character since and it seems like a big wasted opportunity not to integrate him into the universe more, assuming he will be part of the new Avengers line-up. The team of heroes in Eternals was pretty much also brushed over, and even if that movie had a mixed reception, if Marvel really had a plan for them they would bring them back and just write better/more interesting stories to use them in. People weren't thrilled with Captain Marvel but we've seen her show up again in other movies.

 

[donuts]

THing is, movies like Shang-Chi and Eternals should've been knock outs.

Not every phase one movie was, but it started with Iron Man.

None of the new characters got a movie as good as that. And that's no bueno.

Shang-Chi was nice. It was okay. It falls apart in the third act. Didn't set the world on fire. But I can see a future for the character. Eternals was bad. And boring. Audiences couldn't care less about the Eternals.

Captain Marvel made a billion. And they **** the bad with The Marvels.

Captain America 4 is the first Sam Wilson Cap movie. Needed to be better.

They just didn't deliver. And audiences are tired of paying for subpar movies.

 

[kguillou]

I strongly disagree. You can only rely on interconnectivity for so much.

I believe that it's much simpler than that.

Most recent Marvel stuff either lacked vision, had weak scripts, or was poorly cobbled together between reshoots and uncertainty.

People have responded to movies which looked like they could stand on their own and be entertaining: Spider-Man No Way Home, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3, Deadpool and Wolverine... and many seem to be curious about Fantastic Four (and even Thunderbolts).

Loki, X-Men '97 and Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man on the TV side.

Make better movies. Get a better response.

The novelty of the cinematic universe has worn off. You can't just thrive on connectivity.

I dont disagree with your point. A good movie is a good movie and the general audience for the most part willl buy their ticket based on whether a movie just looks appealing or not. NWH, MoM and D&W all had interesting gimmicks and hooks to them (and thats not a diss, I love all three of those movies but lets call a spade a spade).

But I do genuinely think the audience is growing frustrated with the lack of "where are we going here?" I cant tell you how many times I've stayed for a post credit and its some dumb superfluous scene and my opening night audience groans in frustration saying "thats it?" Thats happened soooo many times in the past 4 years. And I'm not saying its ALL about gimmicky post credits scenes, but its a symptom of a larger problem of people wanting to be invested in an ongoing narrative with this universe like the Infinity Saga again. Yes, first and foremost just make a good movie and make sure the movie looks appealing in your marketing, but this is the MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE, people have become invested in the universe and the connective tissue between all of these characters and their movies. Thats why for example, when

Spoiler: spoiler

Bucky

showed up in this movie, my whole audience lit up and howled with cheers. People want to see this UNIVERSE coalesce and come together.

 

[donuts]

But I do genuinely think the audience is growing frustrated with the lack of "where are we going here?" I cant tell you how many times I've stayed for a post credit and its some dumb superfluous scene and my opening night audience groans in frustration saying "thats it?" Thats happened soooo many times in the past 4 years. And I'm not saying its ALL about gimmicky post credits scenes, but its a symptom of a larger problem of people wanting to be invested in an ongoing narrative with this universe like the Infinity Saga again. Yes, first and foremost just make a good movie and make sure the movie looks appealing in your marketing, but this is the MARVEL CINEMATIC UNIVERSE, people have become invested in the universe and the connective tissue between all of these characters and their movies. Thats why for example, when

Spoiler: spoiler

Bucky

showed up in this movie, my whole audience lit up and howled with cheers. People want to see this UNIVERSE coalesce and come together.

You're seeing things too much from a "comic book fan" perspective.

The latest most successful MCU movies had none of that "future teasing" stuff. Spider-Man No Way Home, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 and Deadpool & Wolverine.

The interconnectivity was a fun novelty for people. Stuff like that wears off after a while. That's when you can't rely on your gimmick anymore and have to deliver with each movie. Produce less stuff, but make sure it sticks once the audience comes out of the theater. Or else they'll get bored and move on.

Regardless of whether a new Avengers team or story is being set up. Audiences HAVE BEEN THERE, HAVE DONE THAT.

 

[DyeLorean]

It all went to s*** the minute Disney said to Feige "Oh and you also have to give us 10 shows, now GO!".
Any connective tissue/narrative thread was automatically lost. You can do that with 3 movies every year, you can't with 15 different projects in different mediums without some sort of 'ending' in sight.
Not to mention some of the projects themselves have been pretty lacklustre. And Covid and the strikes. And the audience's appetite has changed. It's a combination of factors.

Luckily they can still turn things around with the Avengers films and the X-Men looming in the future. But they need a new strategy.

 

[Filmfan93]

Just saw this an hour ago and it was a very mid MCU film.

Aesthetic-wise it felt like an episode of the Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Story-wise it was a straight sequel to The Incredible Hulk, which happens to have Captain America in it.

Generic action, non-existent score. It was fun, but nothing memorable.

We've come a very long way from the Winter Soldier and Civil War days, that's for sure. Unfortunately, this was so average that it will be forgotten in about 2 weeks time.

 

[donuts]

It all went to s*** the minute Disney said to Feige "Oh and you also have to give us 10 shows, now GO!".
Any connective tissue/narrative thread was automatically lost. You can do that with 3 movies every year, you can't with 15 different projects in different mediums without some sort of 'ending' in sight.
Not to mention some of the projects themselves have been pretty lacklustre. And Covid and the strikes. And the audience's appetite has changed. It's a combination of factors.

Luckily they can still turn things around with the Avengers films and the X-Men looming in the future. But they need a new strategy.

and even 3 movies a year was pushing it, IMO.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

I think you absolutely nailed it. How did Feige and the mcu braintrust drop the ball this bad on the meta narrative and the connectivity between these movies? Most of the movies post endgame have lived in a vaccum with nothing tying them together. Theres no narrative build up, we dont get exciting post credits scenes anymore that tell the audience “this is where we’re going” like in the Infinity Saga.

Yeah it boggles my mind that Feige decided to make the Multiverse saga so disconnected compared to the Infinity Saga. Only thing I can imagine is that he listened too much to the vocal minority of people complaining about having to keep up with stuff...but he should've just ignored them and kept giving the audience more of what we came to the MCU for in the first place.

I strongly disagree. You can only rely on interconnectivity for so much.

The interconnectivity was a fun novelty for people. Stuff like that wears off after a while.

There's no evidence for this. Endgame was the end of the big interconnected meta narrative and it was the most successful movie ever at the time. Even now the most successful MCU products are the big crossovers that connect the MCU back to Fox and Sony films. Interconnectivity is a massive hype bringer, it's what made the MCU a massive hit in the first place. Without it, you just have...well, the same situation that WB, Sony, and Fox are/were all in with their superhero films--a random mix of successful movies and flops that stand completely independently of one another.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Anybody got any idea which theatre he is broadcasting from?

 

[Another_Fool]

Shang-Chi was nice. It was okay. It falls apart in the third act. Didn't set the world on fire. But I can see a future for the character. Eternals was bad. And boring. Audiences couldn't care less about the Eternals.

Shang Chi was really well received both by critics and audience, it just came out when we were in a pandemic which hurt its box office and Marvel has been slow to a sequel. Not even inserting Simu Liu as a cameo or in a post credit for other films to remind the audiences that he's still around and important is more the issue than anything. I agree about the third act, but Iron Man 1 (and also a number of other early MCU films) suffered from a lackluster third act as well. I recognize that Simu isn't as charismatic or magnetic as RDJ, but many weren't - the fun really began when they interacted with other MCU characters.

 

[kguillou]

Yeah it boggles my mind that Feige decided to make the Multiverse saga so disconnected compared to the Infinity Saga. Only thing I can imagine is that he listened too much to the vocal minority of people complaining about having to keep up with stuff...but he should've just ignored them and kept giving the audience more of what we came to the MCU for in the first place.




There's no evidence for this. Endgame was the end of the big interconnected meta narrative and it was the most successful movie ever at the time. Even now the most successful MCU products are the big crossovers that connect the MCU back to Fox and Sony films. Interconnectivity is a massive hype bringer, it's what made the MCU a massive hit in the first place. Without it, you just have...well, the same situation that WB, Sony, and Fox are/were all in with their superhero films--a random mix of successful movies and flops that stand completely independently of one another.

Correct. That was the "hook" of the MCU, that each time youre going to the theater your getting a piece of a larger puzzle. THAT is why audiences took a chance with weirder outlier movies like Guardians of the Galaxy and Antman and those projects made as much money as they did. Yes they were GOOD movies in their own right, but what got people in the theater is the curiosity of seeing "how does this movie fit into the bigger picture?" Every body wanted to see where this Thanos storyline was going to go and they were willing to take a chance on more obscure characters to see how they fit. Thats the benefit of a cinematic universe, its a tide that lifts all the ships. And then getting to see characters we fall in love with start crossing over and interacting and building relationships and conflicts with each other, like Cap and Tony.

People have no idea where we're going here. People showed up to NWH because it had a great gimmick but that gimmick could have also been the lynchpin and starting point of an ongoing multiverse thread that you saw in ALL the movies after that. They never capitalized on that. How in the Heck do you follow up NWH with a movie literally titled "MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS" and it has NOTHING to do with the movie that preceded it dealing with the multiverse? NWH should have been the catalyst for an ongoing thread that carried the movies following it.

 

[BobJM]

Shang Chi was really well received both by critics and audience, it just came out when we were in a pandemic which hurt its box office and Marvel has been slow to a sequel. Not even inserting Simu Liu as a cameo or in a post credit for other films to remind the audiences that he's still around and important is more the issue than anything. I agree about the third act, but Iron Man 1 (and also a number of other early MCU films) suffered from a lackluster third act as well. I recognize that Simu isn't as charismatic or magnetic as RDJ, but many weren't - the fun really began when they interacted with other MCU characters.

I think Feige’s biggest misstep in the Multiverse Saga are aimless post-credits— a 2-3 minute scene can do a lot to push the narrative forward and connect characters. They should have all been majorly focused on the multiverse and the incoming incursion. Then the rest should focus solely on Val recruiting the Thunderbolts* (or check-ins on those characters) since that’s the next team-up.

We can criticize the shortcomings of each entry in the MCU post-Endgame (and there are many), but some cohesion goes a long way to smooth the rough patches. It’s a shame they haven’t realized this.

And they’ve got a whole streaming platform to pump out One-Shots. The One-Shots pre-Avengers were exposition-heavy with a little action, doing backflips to make the narrative hold. Surely Benedict Wong, our Sorcerer Supreme, can be our new Coulson. He always seems game to make appearances.

 

[TheVileOne]

The audience score for the movie is 78%. By my grading that's a C, so not terrible, but not what I'd call "good" or "great" either. It's not some amazing audience score. But people always whine about the scores anyway if the critic score is low but the audience score is higher.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I dont think the lack of interconnectivity is necessarily the problem. In truth, we only really saw Thanos developed to any great extent in IW and non comic fans don't remember every tiny detail like we do. The issue is the movies themselves haven't engaged audiences, and I think the larger issue is the multiverse isn't that audience friendly. It's too deep sci-fi and turns off your average viewer. It's only really worked for Marvel when they preyed on nostalgia, it Tobey/Andrew, Hugh Jackman, etc. But things like Kang and such didn't work for people. On top of that, superhero movies are not new, so garden variety doesn't hit like it once did. Pizza every night for a straight month hits different on Day 27 than Day 1 unless you make it fresh somehow

 

[kguillou]

I think Feige’s biggest misstep in the Multiverse Saga are aimless post-credits— a 2-3 minute scene can do a lot to push the narrative forward and connect characters. They should have all been majorly focused on the multiverse and the incoming incursion. Then the rest should focus solely on Val recruiting the Thunderbolts* (or check-ins on those characters) since that’s the next team-up.

We can criticize the shortcomings of each entry in the MCU post-Endgame (and there are many), but some cohesion goes a long way to smooth the rough patches. It’s a shame they haven’t realized this.

And they’ve got a whole streaming platform to pump out One-Shots. The One-Shots pre-Avengers were exposition-heavy with a little action, doing backflips to make the narrative hold. Surely Benedict Wong, our Sorcerer Supreme, can be our new Coulson. He always seems game to make appearances.

And the thing is, now, they've got a LOT of work to do in a short amount of time to get audiences ready for Doomsday. Thunderbolts and F4 now unfairly have the heavy burden of somehow getting audiences prepped for that movie. Otherwise Doomsday is going to have no narrative build up and just coast on the goodwill of "hey everybody its another Avengers movie!"

 

[Spider-Fan]

And the thing is, now, they've got a LOT of work to do in a short amount of time to get audiences ready for Doomsday. Thunderbolts and F4 now unfairly have the heavy burden of somehow getting audiences prepped for that movie. Otherwise Doomsday is going to have no narrative build up and just coast on the goodwill of "hey everybody its another Avengers movie!"

The lack of narrative build is why they're paying RDJ 100 million dollars. So they can bank on nostalgia to make up for garbage story. I have a feeling Doomsday is gonna make people long for Age of Ultron

 

[TeeKay]

Watched it. Not great not bad either. It's just OK. Felt like a 3 episode arc of Falcon and the winter soldier. Dialogue was horrible. 5 writers on this. FIVE. I feel really bad for Anthony Mackie. I was rooting for this film. To prove to us why Sam should be Cap and the leaders of the Avengers. This movie is just wasted potential. You can see great ideas all through out. I have a feeling Red Hulk was suppose to be a twist before being revealed in the trailers.

Also one of the worst hand to hand combat choreography in the MCU. The air battle was cool but didn't really feel the stakes. The Red Hulk vs Sam fight was cool but Sam was surviving hits he shouldnt have. Battke should have been way longer.The Leader sucks. In the same vein as Malekith for me. Like literally a mouthstache twerling villain. This movie is so bizarre. I'll say this though, at least it doesn't feel like a made by committee film (looking at you Any-Man 3). Either the director was too inexperienced or Marvel messed up. It's a bit of both.

5/10

I'm done with the MCU

 

[kguillou]

I dont think the lack of interconnectivity is necessarily the problem. In truth, we only really saw Thanos developed to any great extent in IW and non comic fans don't remember every tiny detail like we do. The issue is the movies themselves haven't engaged audiences, and I think the larger issue is the multiverse isn't that audience friendly. It's too deep sci-fi and turns off your average viewer. It's only really worked for Marvel when they preyed on nostalgia, it Tobey/Andrew, Hugh Jackman, etc. But things like Kang and such didn't work for people. On top of that, superhero movies are not new, so garden variety doesn't hit like it once did. Pizza every night for a straight month hits different on Day 27 than Day 1 unless you make it fresh somehow

I think we cannot understate the value of the interconnectivity man. Yes, 100%, the movies themselves just need to be good and work, first and foremost. No one will ever disagree with that. But lets ask ourselves something, why DID Multiverse of Madness have such a massive opening weekend and ultimately gross near a billion? Because it was that good of a movie? No, because 1) Dr Strange was heavily featured in No Way Home, 2) the multiverse was a main plot point of that movie AND 3) MoM was teased in the post credits of NWH. What do you think all of that telegraphed to the audience who watched No Way Home? It was telling them, "watch the follow up to this story in the next Dr Strange movie." Because believe me if Dr Strange 2 was called "The Revenge of Dormamu" and had nothing to do with the multiverse, its not grossing near a billion.

And while stupidly that ended up not being true, THAT kind of synergy is what the mcu has been sorely missing.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Correct. That was the "hook" of the MCU, that each time youre going to the theater your getting a piece of a larger puzzle. THAT is why audiences took a chance with weirder outlier movies like Guardians of the Galaxy and Antman and those projects made as much money as they did. Yes they were GOOD movies in their own right, but what got people in the theater is the curiosity of seeing "how does this movie fit into the bigger picture?" Every body wanted to see where this Thanos storyline was going to go and they were willing to take a chance on more obscure characters to see how they fit. Thats the benefit of a cinematic universe, its a tide that lifts all the ships. And then getting to see characters we fall in love with start crossing over and interacting and building relationships and conflicts with each other, like Cap and Tony.

People have no idea where we're going here. People showed up to NWH because it had a great gimmick but that gimmick could have also been the lynchpin and starting point of an ongoing multiverse thread that you saw in ALL the movies after that. They never capitalized on that. How in the Heck do you follow up NWH with a movie literally titled "MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS" and it has NOTHING to do with the movie that preceded it dealing with the multiverse? NWH should have been the catalyst for an ongoing thread that carried the movies following it.

Yeah like compare that non-existent transition between NWH and MoM to the transition between IM2 and Thor 1, when Agent Coulson had to leave to deal with something important in Iron Man 2 and then at the end he shows up at Thor's hammer, leading directly into his role in Thor 1. Such a cool, hype-building handoff.

(To be honest, I didn't even watch the MCU films in theaters at first, I didn't really care that much about any Marvel heroes except Spider-man and the X-men...I was pretty much part of the casual audience when it came to my investment in these characters...it was only after watching the phase 1 films on DVD via Red Box and seeing the connected narrative that I found myself feeling an incredible urge to watch the upcoming Avengers 1 in theaters, which led to me seeing all the Infinity Saga films in theaters)

Surely Benedict Wong, our Sorcerer Supreme, can be our new Coulson. He always seems game to make appearances.

The way they've handled Wong is another mind-boggling aspect of all that. Wong appears in Shang Chi, NWH, and MoM...yet none of these appearances have anything to do with each other. How hard is it to have Wong doing one thing in one movie....which then leads into what he's doing in the next? I don't get it man.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think we cannot understate the value of the interconnectivity man. Yes, 100%, the movies themselves just need to be good and work, first and foremost. No one will ever disagree with that. But lets ask ourselves something, why DID Multiverse of Madness have such a massive opening weekend and ultimately gross near a billion? Because it was that good of a movie? No, because 1) Dr Strange was heavily featured in No Way Home, 2) the multiverse was a main plot point of that movie AND 3) MoM was teased in the post credits of NWH. What do you think all of that telegraphed to the audience who watched No Way Home? It was telling them, "wathc the follow up to this story in the next Dr Strange movie."

And while stupidly that ended up not being true, THAT kind of synergy is what the mcu has been sorely missing.

Keeping characters visible DOES matter. Which is why they needed a team-up movie to keep Shang-Chi and such on the public eye. But my point is audiences don't remember minute plot details. So the movies not advancing the narrative isn't the issue. Sidelining so many of them for several years and devaluing them IS a big deal though.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

1) Dr Strange was heavily featured in No Way Home, 2) the multiverse was a main plot point of that movie AND 3) MoM was teased in the post credits of NWH. What do you think all of that telegraphed to the audience who watched No Way Home? It was telling them, "watch the follow up to this story in the next Dr Strange movie." Because believe me if Dr Strange 2 was called "The Revenge of Dormamu" and had nothing to do with the multiverse, its not grossing near a billion.

Don't forget how the trailer for MoM made it sound like the events of that movie would be a direct result of the spell he cast in NWH.

Edit: Also I'm just now remembering that this misleading trailer in fact was the post credits tease in NWH. Yeesh.