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Discussion in 'Avengers: Endgame' started by Iceman, Oct 16, 2018.
Turns out the Vormir "scene" was not a scene from the movie, but a costume fitting. Good to know
It's confirmed to be a costume test for the CM movie on the actual Blu-Ray special feature video those screencaps come from. You can see it here (go to 0:36 on the video), and also the test was done while they were filming IW and not Endgame (they just used the same Vormir set for both, of course).
And even if you didn't know it was a costume test you can tell it's not anything intended for EG because Carol doesn't have her EG haircut or EG version costume on...
Considering how fast this "oMg dElEtEd sCeNe" crap spread, they really should have put a "COSTUME TEST" caption on that footage like I've seen in other special features.
People thought it was 2014 Carol, that’s why.
We should've known it was only a costume test. Captain Marvel being in another scene would require more dialogue and character development, and we all know the only thing the Russos thought she was good for is a plot device.
That's a little unfair because she was a blank slate at that point. They were probably instructed to no do anything that would pigeonhole the writers of her movie.
However, it's pretty clear that the Russos primarily cared about the characters of Cap and Tony and everyone else was just supporting.
Whatever the reason, it isn't really an excuse for bad writing. Black Panther, Spider-Man. Black Widow all appeared in other movies, before having their own. That didn't stop the Russos or any other creative team from giving those characters personalities.There's no reason why they could've already had her character established before her film was made. At the very least, use the comics as a guide. I had hoped they would've approached Captain Marvel the same way. I was looking forward to her having great dialogue and interactions with other characters in the MCU. The Russos instead were more interested in defining Captain Marvel by her gender and powers .
They really couldn't. The script for CM wasn't even finished when Brie shot her scenes. They went in blind with her.
I feel like we're going round in circles. Black Panther, Black Widow, and Spider-Man didn't have scripts written for their films before their introduction into the MCU. The Captain Marvel film was announced in 2014 with Brie being cast in 2016. That's way before Infinity War and Endgame ever started filming. They had plenty of time to write her as a character.
....With an actual personality.
They didn't need a script for CM for that. They just needed to know what and who Carol Danvers was before any cameras started rolling on any film. I know this is possible because it's been done, with almost all of the characters in the MCU. "Going in blind" is just another term for bad writing. Had the Russos actually approached Endgame the same way they approached their previous films and handled all the characters with care, Captain Marvel wouldn't have been just a plot device. They set her up in Infinity War to be an integral part of Endgame. Instead she's treated just like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park.
Good to know that Fury called her because Tony needed an Uber driver and to blow up a ship.
To be fair they probably didn’t want to create anything for her that would conflict her own movie.
When has that stopped the MCU before?
They have conflicts and contradict themselves movie to movie plenty of time..
A positive example is Dr. Strange. In his own movie, he's pretty much just Tony Stark lite. Come Ragnarok and especially Infinity War, he's completely different personality wise.
And as has been said a couple times on this page alone. Black Panther and Spider-Man were written and intro'd before their own solo movies. That's not really an excuse for how Captain Marvel was handled
The Dr. Strange movie came out before his role in Avengers, so he was already established.
Spider-man could have been omitted from Civil War, and it wouldn't have really changed the story for it. It was more of a setup for his arc in Homecoming.
Black Panther was definitely more integral to Civil War, and was written better.
I just think unfortunately CM is so overpowered that they didn't know how to use her in the time heist. The focus was on the original 6, which makes sense since it was the last movie together.
Please read my post again because most of what you said has nothing to do with what I said.
Someone brought up how they think some of the writing surrounding Captain Marvel was weak, you said that Marvel might have not wanted to contradict anything that would happen in her own movie, and I pointed out that the MCU doesn't really care. And that's a fact. They create contradictory things all the time, so that's not really an excuse.
They've established things before whether it be major plot points, character development, and personalities; only for another movie to conflict with what has been established before. That's the point I made. As you said, Dr. Strange was established before IW. His was written a certain way. But as I pointed out in my previous post, that didn't matter to subsequent filmmakers when they changed his personality in later films.
The point I made has nothing to do with how integral someone was to the plot or whatever. How integral someone is to the plot isn't a good reason as to why a character would have such limited writing in terms of personality or anything like that. For CM, she easily could've been written one way in EG and then done something else in her own movie.
Or even better: why couldn't they just have Feige or some kind of story master establish a personality or something for Carol. And then when they hired screenwriters for CM, tell them that they need to follow that. It's not like the MCU doesn't do that already with having filmmakers play within certain rules. That's not necessarily a bad thing as long as you don't spring it on filmmakers during filming like the Perlmutter and the Creative Committee used to do
I do agree with you that CM is overpowered and that's another problem right there. There is no reason for her to be as strong as she is where she can not even flinch when Thanos, minus power stone, hits her dead in her face. You really don't need that because now at this point any enemy she faces has to be so much stronger than Thanos to be any type of decent physical threat. Again, bad writing. And I don't get why people have been giving Superman flack for being too strong for years and then lettign CM slide.
And the thing is: If they didn't know what to do with CM, then just have her snapped away by Thanos in IW. With minor rewrites, the whole movie plays out the same way if she wasn't there. She was barely in the movie anyway. She barely got any meaningful character interactions with the main 6. Focusing on the main 6 isn't an excuse for poor, lazy writing. I think it lends credence to the theory that the Russos don't know what to do with really strong characters. They handled Thor well in IW by giving him his own side mission that actually made great sense (although it had some contradictory elements to character development before). But looking how they treated Vision in CW + IW, Thor in EG, CM in EG, and Hulk in IW + EG; their answers are either to send them away, really worf them, or make them jokes.
Anywho, Larson is a great choice and was my top choice. But the writing for CM has been really poor. Even by MCU standards. Hope they can turn it around for me.
The difference between Dr. Strange, Spidey, et al and CM is that EG was a movie they had to nail as the conclusion to the Infinity saga. They had lower expectations and more room for experimenting just a few years before.
There were rumors that Marvel had big concerns about giving a big role to someone whose subsequently written movie might not go over well and who wasn't in IW. Supposedly, scenes were shot with and without CM and Brie was none too happy about being treated like some kind of mix and match puppet.
I don't believe that they filmed scenes with/without her in case people hated her. Captain Marvel came out in March, so they had no time to make 2 edits of Endgame like that that given it came out in April. The SFX would never have gotten done. That is just propaganda by the same idiots who tried to bomb the Captain Marvel RT page and make the stupid YT videos. Further, if such a more Captain Marvel cut existed, they no doubt would have added her in more if they could have given her movie crossed $1 billion dollars.
Endgame was not her movie. It was designed mainly for the original Avengers. That is why she had a limited role.
I don't believe that either.
But of course Endgame is not her movie. I don't think anyone is claiming that it was or should've been. But they still could've done more with her. You can have a character who isn't in the movie alot, and still have more to do. Like Quicksilver in DOFP or non SH movie examples like Alec Baldwin in Glengary Glenn Ross. There are a good amount of roles where an actor or actress is barely in the movie, but they still are relevant and have a lot of impact.
Or again, just had her be snapped and hold her off until the climax.
Yes, but Endgame had way, way, way, way more characters to juggle than either of these others examples provided. I'd argue given the scope of the cast, she was well represented.
I get why some would want more. But this movie focused exactly where it needed to.
I don't think that's been verified anywhere.
Hence why I called them rumors.
Merely saying them implies there's truth behind them when there's nothing to verify them. I don't see why this place should become reddit/4chan when it comes to spreading rumors. But if you want to go down that road, any comment on the rumor I heard from Timmy at the playground that you've got cooties?
Actually, if you understand the definition of a rumor, it implies potential truth or falsehood.
It's already been pointed out how miniscule the truth potential is given the realities of production for both IW/EG and CM.
Pedantry is never a good look anyway.
So that's a "no comment" on the cooties?
I'd argue that she wasn't. Both Civil War and Infinity War also had quite a few characters to juggle. Arguably IW had more than Endgame, but the Russos managed to balance those characters with masterful storytelling. Scarlet Witch had more to say in her "Paprika" scene in CW than Captain Marvel does in all of Endgame. So really the size of the cast is also not an excuse. The problem with Captain Marvel in Endgame is how she is used. In IW as example, we got a wide range of personalities and interactions with all of the characters. We didn't just see Black Panther show up, fight some enemies and then disappear. Captain Marvel on the other hand is not a character. She barely has any conversations or interactions with other characters that let us know who she is. No sitting down and having a heartfelt or meaningful dialogue with Cap, Iron Man, Rocket etc. No concern about her family's whereabouts during the Snap. NOTHING.
It's a bit rich for Marvel to throw in a "girl power" scene, when you don't even bother to give one of your most important female characters in the MCU a semblance of a personality and only define her by her gender and her powers.