Captain Marvel General Discussion and Speculation

Discussion in 'Captain Marvel' started by Hawkingbird, Jan 9, 2014.

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  1. Hawkingbird

    Hawkingbird I want to be Kate Bishop

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    I know people get fed up of me saying this but I think women are really under represented in cinema, especially in the action/adventure/super hero genre. There has only been one female Marvel solo film and that was Elektra, which was quite frankly shocking.
    I think it would be amazing if we were to get a Captain Marvel film. I would love it to have no love story, just a good story with lots of action and adventure. It's really not asking for much! :oldrazz:
    Anyway, I know there is a casting thread but I think we should also discuss other things too, such as story line, other casting, direction (Joss Whedon...), ect.
     
  2. Loki882

    Loki882 Registered

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    I agree. I'm getting really tired of the double standard that exists in regard to this matter. Also, the constant lame excuses for why a female led movie hasn't happened yet are getting really old. Don't keep saying "we really want to do it, we're looking into it, so don't worry we're TOTALLY not talking out of our asses" over and over again for YEARS if you don't actually plan to DO anything. Otherwise, it comes across as simply lip-service.
     
  3. cph9fa

    cph9fa Registered

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    I probably should have also mentioned, the "casting" thread also had a lot of discussion about some of these issues as well. If you go back to around page 12 and scroll about a third of the way down, I have a rather lengthy post, followed by several pages of good discussion between DrCosmic, myself, and some others.

    We ended up concluding that one major problem with Ms/Captain Marvel was the lack of a unique "setting" or angle. Cap has the military and man out-of-time, IM has corporate technology & being a genius, Thor has the 9 realms and being a stranger on earth, and GotG will have outer space weirdness. Carol has the potential to fit into many of these really well (especially military, with a touch of alien), but doesn't really bring anything new and unique. Compare this to Dr. Strange, Black Panther, and Inhumans, which all have really unique things they bring to the table.

    I really hope to see a Captain Marvel movie in phase 3, but sadly, given the limited number of slots, and the other properties that have been rumored, I'm not expecting that will actually happen.
     
  4. KangConquers

    KangConquers Purple Kang, Purple Kang

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    A Carol Danvers movie was a lot more doable 2 years ago, before they announced Guardians of the Galaxy. Now that GoTG is already blasting a human into space to do battle with the Kree, Carol's arc feels a bit redundant.

    If I had to pitch a Carol Danvers movie, it would be by gender swapping Captain Mar-Vell, and having her as sort of Marvel's Super(wo)man (which Mar-Vell was) instead of their Green Lantern. It would still not be the most original arc, but at least it wouldn't have an MCU arc rendering it unnecessary.
     
  5. cph9fa

    cph9fa Registered

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    It's an interesting approach. The thought had occurred to me as well at one point, but I rejected it for two reasons. Firstly, Thor is already the MCU's superman, and secondly, if part of the point is to have a female superhero, what does it say that she's an alien?
     
  6. KangConquers

    KangConquers Purple Kang, Purple Kang

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    Another alternative to that would be give her Quasar's story...a SHIELD Agent who raids an AIM facility and discovers a hidden alien artifact (The Quantum Bands)...and fight MODOK....wait...that sounds too much like Green Lantern as well. ****.
     
  7. Hawkingbird

    Hawkingbird I want to be Kate Bishop

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    Meh, I'm sure they could do something. The GOTG film opens the door for more cosmic films in my opinion. Do another space one.
     
  8. Hypestyle

    Hypestyle Registered

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    start off with the sexy mini-skirt outfit and go from there..
     
  9. Endeavor

    Endeavor Que bolá con el timbeque?

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  10. Spider-Vader

    Spider-Vader Mercin' & Workin'

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    After the success of the Hunger Games movies & with Warner Bros/DC FINALLY getting Wonder Woman on the big screen, I think Marvel is getting ready to do Captain Marvel. I don't think Marvel wants to be beat by DC on having the first good (hopefully) female superhero movie.
     
  11. Silvermoth

    Silvermoth Avenger

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    A mini skirt? While she's flying?!
     
  12. Spider-Vader

    Spider-Vader Mercin' & Workin'

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    The modern costume or the Warbird costume with some pants are the best way to go for Carol's costume.
     
  13. DrCosmic

    DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    I've got it! Time Travel!

    For the fans, basically, switch Kang in for Thanos. For the execs, I'd pitch Captain Marvel as Star Trek meets Mr. and Mrs. Smith. A Time Travel Romance Hard Sci fi action movie, with the glitzy Tron sci fi and not the pulpy Star Wars Sci-fi of Guardians of the Galaxy. TV Tropes links for everything, including Mar-Vell and Carol Danvers

    The story? Classic with a twist. Mar-Vell would be the Decoy Protagonist dying to be replacedduring the second half of the film, while Carol would be the Deuteragonist (secondary protagonist) until she Takes up Mar-Vell's sword. after his Dying Moment of Awesome.

    The two would be Star Crossed Lovers because Mar-Vell would be a Uber Soldier with Alien MacGuffins from a Bad Future working for an Time Traveling Conqueror like Kang as an advanced agent who is Secretly dying and ends up In love with the Mark, and her Contagious Heroism, and wanting to atone for his misdeeds as a conqueror but is faced with the Time Traveller's Dilemma. Meanwhile, Carol Danvers is a Majorly Awesomeaction girl Badass Normal IronWoobie Avengers Fangirl, who becomes a Violently Protective Girlfriend and eventually a bonafide Superhero after they are Bequeathed Power.

    Through all this, they are involved in a Stern Chase/The Most Dangerous game as they are pursued both by law enforcement, whom Carol worked for as well as Kang's Kree Chrono Enforcment Squadron (or something), which Mar-Vell worked for. The duo becomes a Battle Couple while Flirting Under Fire as Carol adjusts to her genetic modifications before they are eventually caught by their pursuers, Mar-Vell becoming a Trojan Prisoner, Carol being a Badass in Distress until Mar-Vell's Heroic Sacrifice and gives her his Final Speech about how she is the hero and gives his Dying Declaration of Love, giving Carol his negaband macguffin (which will double as a Tragic Keepsake) and starts her Roaring Rampage of Revenge and becomes the Legacy Character we all know and love her to be.

    That's a lot of tropes... I haven't even touched the villains, but you get the idea. Time Travel as Carol's unique 'thing.' I'd also give her a Binary-inspired costume and Monica Rambeau's powers rather than the current costume and powers. She'd still end up with the Captain Marvel codename, but there's no way she'd be passed of as a superman wannabe, or redundant with any of the other characters. Not on my watch. Mar-Vell would have all of that, plus the extreme physicality from his Kree armor.
     
    #13 DrCosmic, Jan 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
  14. cph9fa

    cph9fa Registered

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    Somehow I missed all that when you first posted it, DrCosmic. That's a nice post, and as you say, it's a lot of TVTropes. I have to admit, though, I'm really not a huge fan of time travel plots, though I realize that we'll almost certainly get at least one in the MCU eventually. And I'll grant that its certainly unique to the MCU (assuming time travel isn't in GotG). And Carol's recent reboot did involve time travel, much to her chagrin (though it was more of a way to reintroduce the reader to the character's history)

    Interestingly, I've just been thinking a bit about it from the villain angle, which you didn't touch on. I think a lot of the plot ideas have had Mar-Vell as the "decoy protagonist", a hero who dies, and Carol takes up his mantle. That sorta parallels some of the comics. But I was just thinking about a different, and somewhat more radical approach.

    Most of these films have (at least) two antagonists: the Big Bad and The Dragon (Avengers is notable for only having the Dragon figure... at least until that post credit scene). So I was thinking about Yon-Rogg, and which he would be. Certainly, you could have Yon-Rogg be a Dragon to Ronan the Accuser, but then what is your finale? Does Carol go to the Kree empire to face him? Or better, does Ronan come to Earth and Carol faces him here? Maybe those could work (depending on what happens in GotG).

    But what if Yon-Rogg is the Big Bad? Who is his Dragon? Then it struck me -- make Mar-Vell be a villain! (Hang on... don't burn me at the stake just yet!). After all, Mar-Vell was a spy for the Kree. The first half of the movie, he would be Carol's main antagonist, with Yon-Rogg pulling his strings. But near the end of the film, he would finally realize that Yon-Rogg has gone too far, and have a Heel-Face Turn. Of course, at this point, Redemption Equals Death. Think of Vader sacrificing himself to betray the Emperor (only Mar-Vell's betrayal wouldn't necessarily end in Yon-Rogg's death, Carol could take care of him in the finale, instead. Or not).

    I know this is kind of opposite of a lot of what we've discussed previously. But one possible benefit to doing it this way is to grant Carol, as a hero, some degree of freedom from Mar-Vell. She isn't following him around, or trying to fill his shoes, or live up to his legacy... in fact, early on, she's being a hero by fighting against him.

    OTOH, for the Mar-Vell fans (who will probably hate this villainous direction for the character), you still ultimately get a sacrificially heroic Mar-Vell. And it's still somewhat true to his arc as a Kree spy on earth who obeys his commander, but is torn between two worlds. He just doesn't show it by dressing up and becoming one of earth's beloved superheroes.
     
    #14 cph9fa, Jan 17, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  15. cph9fa

    cph9fa Registered

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    I had another thought about where you could take this story... I keep going back to DrCosmic's idea from an earlier thread, with the whole "aliens secretly on earth" angle. And then I looked at what supporting characters you might work into the story. You've got Mike Rossi, who is her USAF supervising officer. Tracey Burke and Frank Gianelli who are journalists. Then you have Michael Barnett (and/or Karla Sofen) who are psychiatrists. With regard to the psychiatry, you've can draw from her issues like blackouts, and emotional detachment. And of course you have the Kree, including Mar-Vell, Yon-Rogg, and Ronan.

    Air force, alien spies, genetic experiments, blackouts, psychiatrists, journalists... This makes for a classic Alien Abduction Thriller!

    So you've got a hot-headed Air Force pilot, who claims to have seen a UFO, but is dismissed by her superiors and takes the issue to journalists (perhaps a tabloid). She gets secretly kidnapped by alien Kree and undergoes various experiments, but her memories are wiped of the event. As a result, now she is struggling with blackouts (and possibly episodes of emotional detachment), so she is grounded and ordered to see a psychiatrist. She eventually starts manifesting superhuman abilities, and discovers the Kree have been spying on earth in the wake of the Tesseract's activation. So she takes the fight to them, and encourages them to leave Earth alone.
     
    #15 cph9fa, Jan 26, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2014
  16. KangConquers

    KangConquers Purple Kang, Purple Kang

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    That's actually a great angle. But I think I'd make Carol a straight shooter at the start, who becomes disenfranchised with her superior, and becomes increasingly reckless.
     
  17. DrCosmic

    DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    cph9fa, looks like I missed yours for a while too, heh. I really like Mar-Vell as an out and out villain, a spy, and antagonist, redeeming himself in the end, a true Anti-Villain That's awesome, and totally works. It gives them a much better angle to their relationship if they are actually opposing. Set up their relationship early in the film, and have the betrayal be what sets things off. Their adversarial relationship would be awesome, seeing a largely underpowered Carol go toe to toe with Mar-Vell. It makes Carol her own character, makes the movie solidly her movie, without losing any of the advantages of including Mar-Vell. Awesome call.

    Without him at her side though, that means she does need a traveling companion, a sounding board. I would suggest someone like Rick Jones. If people are really put off from a Mar-Vell/Carol romance, you could make Rick, or Mar-Vell the Not-Love Interest

    It would tee off fans who see him as a hero. You want to nod to that. Perhaps billing himself as a new superhero being part of his cover. One that he actually becomes, perhaps, with Carol's clever subversion of his mission.

    I do think the therapist and blackouts and emotional distance angle has a lot of merit, and gives her a really strong arc from the comics as she turns from a conspiracy theorist into the woman who was right all along. I don't know how closely I would stick with/rely on alien abduction thriller as it doesn't leave a lot of room to up the ante for a franchise, but that arc... that's fresh. That's a great character progression, and apparently the whole stoic things makes her easier to empathize with. Good stuff.

    When I say time travel, btw, I'm not talking about full on Dr. Who timey-wimey... I'm really thinking more along the lines of Star Trek 2009, a You Can't Fight Fate that gets solved with an Alternate Timeline or something like that. Perhaps it'd be her that could establish this as "Earth-199999"

    On Carol's Powers and abilities, I'd like to see her with Binary's powers, keeping the Seventh Sense as a sort of cosmic awareness of every threat to her (which would help her track down Mar-Vell), and the ability to absorb heat, light and radiation of various types. The (stolen) Negaband would be what allow her to channel and use this energy to blast. Mar-Vell would have the other Negaband, which he would show also gives him great mastery, as well as the (Ultimate/EMH-inspired) Kree Armor which gives all of the usual Captain Marvel abilities, making him a far superior combatant. There'd be a whole thing about acquiring the other Negaband to open the gateway to bring the reinforcements to finish the invisible invasion.

    It all goes down and Mar-Vell finally becomes the hero that he's pretended to be, thanks to Carol, and dies pretty much destroying the facility and the Psyche-Magnetron Device and the Nitro army, and it's just left to Carol to take the fight to an all-but defeated Yon-Rogg and finish him once and for all.

    Oh, and with the whole Marcus storyline, the more I think you have to do Kang as the force behind the Kree-Skrull War. That'd be a pretty cool thing for Carol to be in the middle of. Cap could handle the Secret Invasion with the Skrull, Thor could face the ancient/current Kree while Iron Man would be doing his own thing but it'd turn out the Skrull Queen was involved. The GoTG would be dealing with the Skrull and some cosmic beings directly while Black Panther and Dr. Strange could be doing their own things with ties to the subplots that are building. Could be awesome, at least in theory.
     
  18. cph9fa

    cph9fa Registered

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    I was thinking this could be smooth-talkin' journalist, Frank Gianelli, who thinks he's just what Carol needs, but constantly gets rejected, to his dismay.

    I have trouble envisioning him, as a spy, choosing a cover that would open himself to public scrutiny. I figure he stays undercover as Dr. Lawson, and it isn't until Carol gets some kind of hypno-therapy to recover her lost memories that she realizes he's an alien. In the meantime, he's having personal doubts about YR's methods, but these would rarely be seen (maybe only hinted at) until his final sacrifice.

    I like the blackouts, and snippets of bad dreams (that are actually blocked memories from her abduction). But I keep flip-flopping the emotional distance thing, because I'm not sure whether that might make her more difficult to empathize with. Maybe if it were done as episodic bouts of depression, alternating with periods of heightened emotion, especially anger (maybe a bit like bipolar? I'm not a psychiatrist...). I wouldn't want her to be completely emotionally dead the whole time, is what I'm getting at. (To clarify: I've been reading through Ms. Marvel back issues, but I haven't quite gotten to this part of the story, so I don't know how it's been handled.)

    The potential franchise setup would be creating SWORD at the end, with the goal of Earth-space defense. The abduction story, as the first movie, would just be the entry into this. This would also tie in to one of her character's personal (childhood) goals of becoming an astronaut. I'd maybe even start the movie with a flashback to her as a teen, reading some Asimov (or Clarke, or something similar), and arguing with her father about being able to go to college, then deciding to join the Air Force.

    I'm imagining Cavorite Crystal as the magic unobtanium that powers the negabands, and also powers the Kree's FTL drives. The former would essentially be a force field generator that absorbs, stores, transforms, and redirects energy it intercepts.

    Not sure how I feel about the Cosmic Awareness/7th sense thing, TBH. To me, it just came off as an overly-convenient plot device. Maybe instead of visions of the future, she's haunted by bad dreams about her abduction (as I mentioned above) which gradually helps her to piece together what's going on.

    The scene I'm envisioning is that YR is trying to test Carol's newly-enhanced physical limits to see how long it takes for her to die when exposed to some kind of deadly gas (or other lethal substance). At her impending death, MV finally realizes YR has gone too far, and saves her, but over-exposes himself to the substance in the process.
     
  19. Dasher10

    Dasher10 I'm like Deadpool IRL

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    The real reason why Carol is one of my favorite heroes and why I'm so passionate about her getting her own film is because she's the connective tissue between the various corners of the marvel Universe. She's able to tangle with the street level heroes like Luke Cage and Daredevil but she's also a cosmic property like Guardians of the Galaxy and Inhumans. However, she spends most of her time on an international level with stints in both the Avengers as well as the X-Men. Add in a connection to War Machine and you have a character who really fits into the MCU. Additionally, developing the property allows Marvel Studios to use the Brood and Deathbird as villains which also puts pressure on Fox to do the same and develop Starjammers.

    I mean, when you have a character who can cameo as much as Nick Fury can but also has her own villains, then that's a property worth developing.

    I also second the people above saying that Mahr needs to appear in the original and then die with Carol taking on the mantle and Yon-Rogg as the villain. After that, Carol should fight Moonstone in the sequel come Phase 4.

    As far as the third film goes, Cru, Doomsday Man, Ghazi Rashid, Monica Rappaccini, The Brood, Deathbird and MODOK are all viable choices.
     
  20. cph9fa

    cph9fa Registered

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    I was thinking about how this film would end. The overall situation is that YR's starship (the Helion) is in orbit with a complement of Kree crew. The first two acts have been mostly focused on Earth, but the third act would see Carol end up on this ship, with MV ultimately sacrificing himself to save her life and help her escape. At this point, she's lose on the ship and being hunted by Kree warriors. But she can't just leave, with the Kree ship still in Earth orbit, so what are her options?

    (A) She somehow convinces the Kree to leave Earth, either through diplomacy or intimidation. Not only does this make a somewhat lame ending, but diplomacy isn't Carol's style, nor are the Kree easily forced to retreat.

    (B) She destroys the ship, possibly by overloading it's stardrive. With her energy absorption ability, she survives the explosion, and is left floating alone in space (in a black-and-red Kree spacesuit and helmet), and then flies to Earth. Visually, that would would make an awesome ending, and seems in character for Carol. This is the ending I've been envisioning for a while now. Also, to avoid implying that she flat-out killed all the Kree crew, you could have a long enough "Warning: Overload Imminent" time period, so that the crew is able to abandon the ship in lifeboats. This leaves an interesting loose thread: Kree stranded on Earth.

    (C) It occurred to me today that we could be a bit smarter, and play for keeps... Instead of just destroying the cool alien ship, let's capture it! Then not only does SWORD have all kinds of cool alien tech they can reverse engineer (beyond whatever the Chitauri already left behind), but also a starship in orbit that they can use as a base of operations (the Peak). Awesome! The only trouble is clearing out all the original crew first. Unless you combine this with the previous option...

    (B+C) Carol overloads the stardrive, and claims she intends to blow up the ship. The regular Kree crew abandons ship in drop pods to Earth, while Carol dukes it out with whatever skeleton crew is left behind. At the last minute, she figures out a way to "eject the core", (or shield the blast, or whatever) so that the ship is left in tact (though perhaps without FTL). When she returns to Earth for a debrief, Col. Rossi (or Rhodey?) tells her that was a bold bluff. Carol says, completely seriously, "It wasn't a bluff."

    Okay, so maybe overloading the warp core is a bit Star Trek cliche... but Carol is a total nerd, to the point of naming her cat Chewie, so she'd probably think to do something like that (she could even lampshade the similarity, saying she got the idea from a movie/TV show).

    In terms of widening the universe, I really like the idea of keeping the ship, and converting it into a SWORD base.

    EDIT: So... I just read on Wikipedia's SWORD page that in EMH (which I haven't watched) "Kang the Conqueror's ship Damocles is made into S.W.O.R.D.'s base." So I guess this wasn't a completely bad idea... lol :D
     
    #20 cph9fa, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  21. Dasher10

    Dasher10 I'm like Deadpool IRL

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    Hey, so if Captain Marvel and Inhumans both happen, what are the odds that the Guardians of the Galaxy sequel will adapt The Kree-Skrull War or Operation Galactic Storm? Another reason why captain Marvel needs to be in this. After Thanos is out of the picture, the Supreme Intelligence needs to be brought in as the next big bad. A Guardians sequel would show that even they have the Skrulls/Shi'Ar who pose a threat to even them but unless that fear factor is there from Captain Marvel, then it's just two alien races duking it out.
     
  22. DrCosmic

    DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    Okay, okay, I'm seeing it. SWORD as more of a Men in Black X-Files type of thing rather than a big SHIELD Paramilitary Operation, I like that. With SHIELD taking a backseat in Avengers most likely there's even more room for a shadowy organization without stepping on any themes from another franchise.

    And you're right, a superhero is a pretty bad cover. I'll have to take that one back to the drawing board. It'd have to be the right moment, to twist something or connect some distant ideas.

    I think the blackouts are good... I would keep her seventh sense since that's one of the few unique abilities she has. Certainly tone down how reliable it is, but at least have hints of it mixed in with her dreams of the past.

    The only thing I'd outright disagree with is making her bipolar, or anything in that direction. At the end of the day, she needs to be a role model, something little girl want to buy toys/action figures of. Blackouts can happen to anyone, go for it, but emotional flip flopping and extreme depression... that's an inappropriate of an action hero for kids, and a sad state when the girl superhero is the emotionally unstable one.

    I imagine something more explosive where Carol is more active (futilely or otherwise) personally, but that has the core emotional touchstone in it. And I honestly would want to see Mar-Vell as a 'hero' for more than two minutes. Btw, I think that's where we'd see Mar-Vell superhero legacy. Before he's been part of this invisible war, so the first and only time he actually appears in his gear, he's dying saving the world, we don't know it's for Carol's sake, but hey.

    Also the invisible war stuff really goes well with the Ultimate Universe, where the Kree had advanced advanced cloaking tech, and then again with them battling the Skrull who blend in with society.

    How do you hint that Mar-Vell may be changing? The tried and true "He could have killed me" scene?
     
  23. DrCosmic

    DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    What if detonating the core and absorbing the explosion is how she gets enough power to defeat Yon-Rogg? That could be kinda awesome.

    I highly doubt Marvel Studios has any rights to X-Men foes such as The Brood and Deathbird.
     
    #23 DrCosmic, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  24. cph9fa

    cph9fa Registered

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    I understand this, and agree with you. But just to clarify, I was thinking of it as an obstacle to be dealt with by the end of the movie, not an inherent part of her personality. Think in terms of Iron Man's PTSD freak-outs in IM3. Or even like Cap in TFA trying to drown his sorrows when Bucky died. I just feel like there should be some type of psychological component to what Carol faces and overcomes. Like I said, I'm no psychiatrist (but neither is Hollywood), so I won't pretend to know what to call it, or how it would play out.

    This is probably a good point to mention that I'm seeing it as two abduction events -- one at the end of Act I, which begins her transformational process (which has been largely mind-wiped, and is only seen in short vague flashes), and one at the end of Act II, after this process has run its course (which is when she escapes). In the meantime (during Act II), Carol is "released" back to Earth and observed by "Lawson" -- like tagging an animal and releasing it back to the wild. This in-between period is when any kind of psychological side-effects would be present. It also gives her and "Lawson" an opportunity to interact without her knowing that he's the "bad guy" -- until she has another flashback and sees his face in the abduction room, and realizes he's one of them.

    :up: I've been having trouble figuring out how this scene would play out, so this is a good idea.

    Interactions between them while he's undercover (see above) could hint at that. Also, you could show discussions with YR that Carol isn't privy to: "You want me to do what? But that'll kill her!" "That's the point, Mar-Vell!"

    :up:
     
    #24 cph9fa, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2014
  25. Dasher10

    Dasher10 I'm like Deadpool IRL

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    They have the shared rights to Quicksilver, Skrulls and Ronan. I mean, Deathbird originated as a Ms. Marvel foe and the Brood were always Carol's enemies. During their first appearance, she was fighting alongside the X-Men and then later on, she fought them a number of times in her solo adventures.
     
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