Chadwick Boseman is Black Panther! - Part 5

[Mike Murdock]

I thought that we've been through this already.

We have. Which is why I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was asking if the BET cartoon faithfully reproduced the dialogue. Since I've made it clear that my knowledge comes from that, I simply don't have enough knowledge to agree or disagree unless the BET cartoon is very similar to what was found in the comic.

He even brought something as academic and historically divisive as African Colonialism and made it not just understandable, but valuableto people who still haven't quite figured out Africa is not a country.

I did like the emphasis (once again, in the BET cartoon) on colonialism. It's important to note that he wasn't dealing with racism as it's found in the United States, but with the issues and legacies of involvement in Africa. Certainly, any Black Panther production that deals with broader themes of identity or race needs to address them in the relevant context, which would be something like this. Now whether he pulled that off is an entirely separate issue and there's a palpable lack of subtlety from what I have seen, which is problematic.

 

[Lilbaz]

What is a BET cartoon?

 

[DrCosmic]

Lilbaz: "Black like me for 800 Alex."

Alex Trebek: Adapted from Reginald Hudlin's Who Is The Black Panther storyline this type of production about the King of Wakanda was produced by Marvel Animation in conjunction with the Black Entertainment Television network. After airing in November 2011 on BET, the six episodes were collected on a DVD which can be purchased on places like Amazon.

What is a BET cartoon?

Alex Trebek: That's correct, Lilbaz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_(TV_series)

I did like the emphasis (once again, in the BET cartoon) on colonialism. It's important to note that he wasn't dealing with racism as it's found in the United States, but with the issues and legacies of involvement in Africa. Certainly, any Black Panther production that deals with broader themes of identity or race needs to address them in the relevant context, which would be something like this. Now whether he pulled that off is an entirely separate issue and there's a palpable lack of subtlety from what I have seen, which is problematic.

Yeah, Hudlin writes with the subtlety of a thrown brick. Even in the BET cartoon, the dialogue was... I kept waiting for them to say "Well, at least Klaw's better than GW Bush." I think was pretty straight with colonialism, and I think massaging that into the origin in a visceral way is his like pinnacle contribution to BP's mythos.

I think the urban Americanness that was inappropriate was more in the Wakandan culture. Grandma in the kitchen won't leave because she has something in the oven, and you'd better not mess with grandma, even if you're a soldier evacuating the premises. That's very Afro American culture, and not really African. It reminds me of another Hudlin-produced work, Django Unchained. There's a very funny scene where the girl on the plantation is pretty much the prototypical ghetto chick when talking to her owner "Hey big daddy." Which serves as both comical, and an insightful connection between slave culture and modern urban culture. Part of why it works though is it's played for laughs. It's silly for people of ancient times to use modern slang, lol! But Wakanda's not exactly something you want to play for laughs. I think that was a core mistake.

I think another thing Hudlin got right with all the subtlety of a runaway bulldozer was T'Challa as a hero of the people. Complete with mask-removing movie Spider-Man scene to inspire the little boy. "A socialist with a crown," cynical as it may be, being an apt description. I think that kind of grassroots feel/theme is important. But I could talk all day about that stuff. The story framing was near-perfect in my opinion. Someone great with dialogue could have come into Hudlin's set up and made a modern masterpiece.

All of Hudlin's issues really, flow from lack of subtlety, including racist Doom and South Central Wakanda. It has nothing to do with the story and everything to do with the over the top dialogue. Which actually works in some points e.g. "Emotional? I'm happy, all my enemies are in one place." and the intro to episode 6 is the most epic brutal gangsta hardcore opening to a cartoon I have ever seen. "You have no right to refer to me by name, refer to me by my title..." [Cue theme music]. Honestly, real talk, I gotta respect Hudlin just for making that event happen. I would put Hudlin on the first draft of any project... then I'd go in and do over all his dialogue, but the story framing would be great.

 

[Suzanne78]

I'm sure it's been posted before, but what are considered the best, or at least character-defining runs on Black Panther? I know of Priest and Hndlin from the last few pages of the thread. Who are other writers/artists that have served T'Challa well?

I do like Hickman's voice for T'Challa in NA. Though he is shunned by Wakanda and his own sister.

If they do make a BP movie, I hope they develop Shuri and T'Challa's relationship as far more supportive and functional.

 

[Nokio]

But it does need to be Americanized to be popular amongst Americans, which is kinda the point of American comics like Black Panther. What Hudlin did was make BP accessible. He even brought something as academic and historically divisive as African Colonialism and made it not just understandable, but valuableto people who still haven't quite figured out Africa is not a country. No amount of Doom being a racist or quotes from Diddy Dirty Money will take us back to the 2004 where BP wasn't even appearing in comics anymore, beyond guest spots in Disassembled, with no plans to revive him. What we have now: cartoons, being constantly in print, long term editorial angles, people of all ethnicities asking Feige about a BP film, all that flows from Hudlin inviting everyone into the BP experience. I think Priest's run was better, but because it wasn't as accessible, it wasn't as popular, so when Wesley Snipes tried to make a film of it, no one wanted to back it and assume the American audiences would leave things catered to them and go for things that are more catered to African audiences. Hudlin made great calls in framing the story. That should be commended, even if we have to condemn some of his other decisions as well, I don't know why we have to pretend like that didn't happen.

Its so crazy to me when people think that just because the GA understands something that they give a crap. The GA understands the dictionary. They're not going to spend 2 hours and $12 reading it though, even if the illustrations are nice. Do they give a crap about what's happening? Is it important to them, them being people largely unfamiliar with African history beyond it being a large desert/rural area where slaves came from?

I don't agree at all that Wakanda and BP needs to be Americanized for people to relate. It's just not true in this medium. Thor and Asgard wasn't Americanized. It's not needed. Wakanda is a different culture now exactly how to make it its own is something the producers of the movie is going to have to come up with. The American audience accepts so much in the realm of fantasy that I just don't agree at all that BP needs to be made more American.

I also don't agree that Hudlin is responsible for BP's popularity. Yes he had a run on the book and yes somethings as i've said was decent but more of his writings were just not for me and out of character for BP and Wakanda. Priest's run wasn't any less popular then Hudlin but it was far far superior. Hudlin was gone when all the talk about the movie started coming up. Hudlin has nothing at all to do with the clamoring for a movie by the fans.Yes he did the BET series but how many people actually watched that? Probably comic fans but it wasn't a success or other wise it would've kept running. Marvel has been using the character frequently in the past several years. It happens that way with a bunch of the Avengers. Where is Wonder Man right now? The Vision was absent for years and then he's back. The core team is always there and up front. I wouldn't call BP's absence a lack of him not being known or unfamiliar with. Marvel has always rotated the other characters back and forth.

 

[Nokio]

Lilbaz: "Black like me for 800 Alex."

Alex Trebek: Adapted from Reginald Hudlin's Who Is The Black Panther storyline this type of production about the King of Wakanda was produced by Marvel Animation in conjunction with the Black Entertainment Television network. After airing in November 2011 on BET, the six episodes were collected on a DVD which can be purchased on places like Amazon.



Alex Trebek: That's correct, Lilbaz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_(TV_series)

Yeah, Hudlin writes with the subtlety of a thrown brick. Even in the BET cartoon, the dialogue was... I kept waiting for them to say "Well, at least Klaw's better than GW Bush." I think was pretty straight with colonialism, and I think massaging that into the origin in a visceral way is his like pinnacle contribution to BP's mythos.

I think the urban Americanness that was inappropriate was more in the Wakandan culture. Grandma in the kitchen won't leave because she has something in the oven, and you'd better not mess with grandma, even if you're a soldier evacuating the premises. That's very Afro American culture, and not really African. It reminds me of another Hudlin-produced work, Django Unchained. There's a very funny scene where the girl on the plantation is pretty much the prototypical ghetto chick when talking to her owner "Hey big daddy." Which serves as both comical, and an insightful connection between slave culture and modern urban culture. Part of why it works though is it's played for laughs. It's silly for people of ancient times to use modern slang, lol! But Wakanda's not exactly something you want to play for laughs. I think that was a core mistake.

I think another thing Hudlin got right with all the subtlety of a runaway bulldozer was T'Challa as a hero of the people. Complete with mask-removing movie Spider-Man scene to inspire the little boy. "A socialist with a crown," cynical as it may be, being an apt description. I think that kind of grassroots feel/theme is important. But I could talk all day about that stuff. The story framing was near-perfect in my opinion. Someone great with dialogue could have come into Hudlin's set up and made a modern masterpiece.

All of Hudlin's issues really, flow from lack of subtlety, including racist Doom and South Central Wakanda. It has nothing to do with the story and everything to do with the over the top dialogue. Which actually works in some points e.g. "Emotional? I'm happy, all my enemies are in one place." and the intro to episode 6 is the most epic brutal gangsta hardcore opening to a cartoon I have ever seen. "You have no right to refer to me by name, refer to me by my title..." [Cue theme music]. Honestly, real talk, I gotta respect Hudlin just for making that event happen. I would put Hudlin on the first draft of any project... then I'd go in and do over all his dialogue, but the story framing would be great.

Some of the stuff I'm seeing here is just insane. Grandma in the kitchen? A south central Wakanda? Oh Lord. I'm not even going to touch this mans ignorance. He does not understand period. Maybe he did have a good framing but I'll pass. I've never seen the series and refused to watch it because of Hudlin's involvement. Also I just don't watch BET because it toilet tv thanks in part to Hudlin as well as others over at that Network.

 

[Nokio]

Hudlin is working on the Static Shock web series, so I doubt he'll be involved in this movie at all.

I wouldn't rule him out. I think the man would easily put the Staic shock production on hold for a chance to to be involved in a major studio release. I don't know what kind of relationship that Hudlin has with Marvel but it's very possible that the man will want to be involved with the movie. I'm hoping not but as I've said I can see Disney easy involving him as the go to guy cause he's black and he's written the comic at one point and did that series on BET. Also they don't want to be labeled as white washing the movie. Hudlin also managed to score an Oscar nod for his involvement with Django Unchained, which is troubling. It'll be giving him clout to get onboard the production team in some capacity. Unfortunately in Hollywood and mainstream American in general they have little understanding of Black culture and they always think we are monolithic. Most white execs don't get. Just like with Halle Berry's casting as Storm. FOX didn't look for the actress to best portray the character they just needed a black actress which is why Berry was terribly miscast. She was popular so she was the go to actress at that time. I hope Marvel convinces Disney that they can look for who's best suited to bring BP to the big screen and not go with someone black who happens to work in entertainment and have success.

Static is one of the few Black heroes that have been written well and has been relatable. He wasn't written as black hero but as a hero who also happens to be black. Everything was well done for the most part with the character. He just never caught on big enough with comic fans to keep his series running like Spiderman. Unfortunalty I shudder to think what Hudlin is gonna do to the character. Making static act and speak out of character is coming. Which is why i'm not excited at all about this news.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I wouldn't rule him out. I think the man would easily put the Staic shock production on hold for a chance to to be involved in a major studio release. I don't know what kind of relationship that Hudlin has with Marvel but it's very possible that the man will want to be involved with the movie. I'm hoping not but as I've said I can see Disney easy involving him as the go to guy cause he's black and he's written the comic at one point and did that series on BET. Also they don't want to be labeled as white washing the movie. Hudlin also managed to score an Oscar nod for his involvement with Django Unchained, which is troubling. It'll be giving him clout to get onboard the production team in some capacity. Unfortunately in Hollywood and mainstream American in general they have little understanding of Black culture and they always think we are monolithic. Most white execs don't get. Just like with Halle Berry's casting as Storm. FOX didn't look for the actress to best portray the character they just needed a black actress which is why Berry was terribly miscast. She was popular so she was the go to actress at that time. I hope Marvel convinces Disney that they can look for who's best suited to bring BP to the big screen and not go with someone black who happens to work in entertainment and have success.

Static is one of the few Black heroes that have been written well and has been relatable. He wasn't written as black hero but as a hero who also happens to be black. Everything was well done for the most part with the character. He just never caught on big enough with comic fans to keep his series running like Spiderman. Unfortunalty I shudder to think what Hudlin is gonna do to the character. Making static act and speak out of character is coming. Which is why i'm not excited at all about this news.

I don't see Hudlin being involved because I don't think he'll conform to what Feige and Company wants.

 

[DrCosmic]

Some of the stuff I'm seeing here is just insane. Grandma in the kitchen? A south central Wakanda? Oh Lord. I'm not even going to touch this mans ignorance. He does not understand period. Maybe he did have a good framing but I'll pass. I've never seen the series and refused to watch it because of Hudlin's involvement. Also I just don't watch BET because it toilet tv thanks in part to Hudlin as well as others over at that Network.

I'm overstating the point to show that I understand being averse to those kinds of characterizations. It was a 2 minute scene, the cartoon is solid.

I don't agree at all that Wakanda and BP needs to be Americanized for people to relate. It's just not true in this medium. Thor and Asgard wasn't Americanized. It's not needed. Wakanda is a different culture now exactly how to make it its own is something the producers of the movie is going to have to come up with. The American audience accepts so much in the realm of fantasy that I just don't agree at all that BP needs to be made more American.

I also don't agree that Hudlin is responsible for BP's popularity. Yes he had a run on the book and yes somethings as i've said was decent but more of his writings were just not for me and out of character for BP and Wakanda. Priest's run wasn't any less popular then Hudlin but it was far far superior. Hudlin was gone when all the talk about the movie started coming up. Hudlin has nothing at all to do with the clamoring for a movie by the fans.Yes he did the BET series but how many people actually watched that? Probably comic fans but it wasn't a success or other wise it would've kept running. Marvel has been using the character frequently in the past several years. It happens that way with a bunch of the Avengers. Where is Wonder Man right now? The Vision was absent for years and then he's back. The core team is always there and up front. I wouldn't call BP's absence a lack of him not being known or unfamiliar with. Marvel has always rotated the other characters back and forth.

Thor was completely Americanized. The Norse Myth as it stands was barely given lip service to, only the American comics were referenced. Further, any Nordic culture or sensibilities were excised for Camelot-lite. Kirby's American sensibilities were the reference for the film's mythology. There's even a black guy in a story about Norse myth. Think about that. That's totally Americanized.

The difference between other classic Avengers and BP since Hudlin is that BP is constantly in print now. Wonder Man and Vision aren't. They come and go. They're definitely not always there. BP doesn't come and go anymore, he's just here to stay. That's because now writers and editors are interested in the character, which then creates more interest in more writers and editors. That started with Hudlin. You keep focusing on the mischaraterizations as if that changes the waves that Hudlin made. No, he couldn't afford to make more than six episodes for the cartoon he made on favors, but that doesn't negate it's cultural impact... a million more people who count BP as their fave character is a big deal, especially, again if they are in a position to make more fans. We can debate what we liked and didn't like about Hudlin's run, but why pretend that Hudlin didn't sell more comics than Priest? Why deny that?

 

[chamber-music]

I'm not in favour of pandering to a few ignorant people who can't work out some basic facts such as Africans being a very diverse people with cultures different from African Americans.

If anything Hudlin could of used his comic run to educate westerners and young black kids about African cultures.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Thor's main problem has been the human characters. In the first film, I was okay with the human characters, probably because the first film had Coulson, Barton, Sitwell and Fury in it. In TDW, it was a serious issue I had about the film. Darcy and that intern of hers became an annoyance and Selvig was an embarrassment.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I'm not in favour of pandering to a few ignorant people who can't work out some basic facts such as Africans being a very diverse people with cultures different from African Americans.

If anything Hudlin could of used his comic run to educate westerners and young black kids about African cultures.

If Hudlin were to come on board as writer and/or director, would he want to conform to what Feige and Company want? I don't see that happening with Hudlin and that's the main reason I don't think he'll be involved in the BP movie in any way.

 

[chamber-music]

Thor's main problem has been the human characters. In the first film, I was okay with the human characters, probably because the first film had Coulson, Barton, Sitwell and Fury in it. In TDW, it was a serious issue I had about the film. Darcy and that intern of hers became an annoyance and Selvig was an embarrassment.

I totally agree. The fish out of water interaction with human characters worked in the first film but in the second film Jane was a plot device. Selvig was used for comic relief mostly. Darcy and the intern Ian were just uninteresting. Darcy wasn't even good comic relief.

When I watch the Thor films I can't help but feel it would be so much fun to watch Thor, Sif and the Warriors Three having adventures through the realms rather than watch Thor hang out with Jane, Selvig, Ian and Darcy. I perfectly understand why those human characters are in the movies and what there role is but I still kind of hope they have less screentime in the next film.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Sif had more character development (and screentime) on her episode of Agents of SHIELD than in both of the Thor movies.

And Idris Elba hasn't been used to satisfaction and is wasted as Heimdall when he (and AAA, who was wasted as Kurse and Djimon Hounsou who was wasted as Korath) could have all had roles in a BP film.

 

[E-Man]

I'm sure it's been posted before, but what are considered the best, or at least character-defining runs on Black Panther? I know of Priest and Hndlin from the last few pages of the thread. Who are other writers/artists that have served T'Challa well?

I do like Hickman's voice for T'Challa in NA. Though he is shunned by Wakanda and his own sister.

If they do make a BP movie, I hope they develop Shuri and T'Challa's relationship as far more supportive and functional.

Priest series is considered the defining run by most fans, but before him Don McGregor did much of the world building of Wakanda. He wrote BP's first solo series Jungle Action where T'Challa comes back to Wakanda to find that Erik Killmonger has been destroying many villages in Wakanda in a coup attempt. That largely defined a lot of the Black Panther world. Gil Kane and Billy Graham were the primary artists on that title. McGregor comes back in 1991 to do a 4 issue miniseries called Panther's Prey.

Then there's Jack Kirby's Black Panther. The King did both writing and art on it, and that lasted 15 issues with him doing art and writing on 12.

Outside of that you have Priest's series lasting 62 issues, and Hudlin's lasting 41 issues before being rebooted for another 12.

 

[DrCosmic]

Thor's main problem has been the human characters. In the first film, I was okay with the human characters, probably because the first film had Coulson, Barton, Sitwell and Fury in it. In TDW, it was a serious issue I had about the film. Darcy and that intern of hers became an annoyance and Selvig was an embarrassment.

Nah, the human characters were a symptom of a larger problem: they were re-doing Thor 1. They had nothing new to say.

If Hudlin were to come on board as writer and/or director, would he want to conform to what Feige and Company want? I don't see that happening with Hudlin and that's the main reason I don't think he'll be involved in the BP movie in any way.

I think the most involved he would be would be writing a draft, and that's probably best. It really wouldn't be up to him to decide whether to conform or not. I think the ideal, so to speak, would be as a producer, lending the good ideas he has and having four to six entrenched voices to sort of shuffle away the bad ones. I don't think he's a very good director at all, and that's the only position that has enough power to not conform.

 

[Nokio]

I'm not in favour of pandering to a few ignorant people who can't work out some basic facts such as Africans being a very diverse people with cultures different from African Americans.

If anything Hudlin could of used his comic run to educate westerners and young black kids about African cultures.

100% IN AGREEMENT! Now if only some here could see what you and I see sir.

 

[Nokio]

If Hudlin were to come on board as writer and/or director

YOU TAKE THAT BACK RIGHT NOW. Don't even suggest such a thing. Hudlin is a mediocre talent at best. I don't want Marvel to feel beholden the the black community or allow opportunists to use a BP movie a political issue and power grab in hollywood. It all comes down to money and of course you'll have the black elite who will be making noise about Disney white washing a BP film if blacks aren't brought on board to write and produce. It's not needed because some like Hudlin as example doesn't know anything about African culture more so then a white American. Yes there are many americans who study foreign cultures but based on Hudlin's writings he's not one of them.

Marvel should get who's best for the job and someone who can make a unique fictional culture in Wakanda. it should not mirror anything from the US and the cultural history of black americans.

 

[Huddsy]

Sif had more character development (and screentime) on her episode of Agents of SHIELD than in both of the Thor movies.

And Idris Elba hasn't been used to satisfaction and is wasted as Heimdall when he (and AAA, who was wasted as Kurse and Djimon Hounsou who was wasted as Korath) could have all had roles in a BP film.

This is the most TIRED and absolutely frustratingly nonsensical opinion that you keep pushing. They weren't WASTED. They played awesome parts in the MCU. That's it.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I totally agree. The fish out of water interaction with human characters worked in the first film but in the second film Jane was a plot device. Selvig was used for comic relief mostly. Darcy and the intern Ian were just uninteresting. Darcy wasn't even good comic relief.

When I watch the Thor films I can't help but feel it would be so much fun to watch Thor, Sif and the Warriors Three having adventures through the realms rather than watch Thor hang out with Jane, Selvig, Ian and Darcy. I perfectly understand why those human characters are in the movies and what there role is but I still kind of hope they have less screentime in the next film.

Personally, I was a lot more interested in Darcy and Ian than Jane. They weren't the problem with TDW. The problem was that the movie had no idea what it wanted to be.

But what does this have to do with T'Challa?

 

[Dr. Evil]

This is the most TIRED and absolutely frustratingly nonsensical opinion that you keep pushing. They weren't WASTED. They played awesome parts in the MCU. That's it.

At least Elba is not one and done. I wanted to see more of Korath and Kurse in the MCU. Too bad that's not going to ever happen.

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

This is the most TIRED and absolutely frustratingly nonsensical opinion that you keep pushing. They weren't WASTED. They played awesome parts in the MCU. That's it.

Heimdall, Korath, and Kurse aren't awesome because they're meaty, well-written parts that gave Elba, Hounsou, and Akinnuoye-Agbaje a lot of cool stuff to do. Those parts were awesome because they were played by those actors. The roles themselves were extremely insubstantial, and did not give any of those actors the opportunity to stretch anything near the full range of their talents—the actors themselves are just so damn talented that they were able to inject them with a ton of charisma, despite small screen time and non-existent character arcs.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Heimdall, Korath, and Kurse aren't awesome because they're meaty, well-written parts that gave Elba, Hounsou, and Akinnuoye-Agbaje a lot of cool stuff to do. Those parts were awesome because they were played by those actors. The roles themselves were extremely insubstantial, and did not give any of those actors the opportunity to stretch anything near the full range of their talents—the actors themselves are just so damn talented that they were able to inject them with a ton of charisma, despite small screen time and non-existent character arcs.

My issue is that Korath and Kurse are one and done characters and mainly side characters, like Maya Hansen was in Iron Man 3. If both had lived, I would be okay with those actors playing those roles again. I am happy we'll see Karen Gillian play Nebula again. And yes, while I do believe that Spader's Ultron is one and done, he's the main protagonist, something that Korath and Kurse are not.

That's been my issue that I hope Marvel rectifies soon. I don't know how they would bring Kurse or Korath back, but if both return for future movies, I'd be okay with the actors returning to those roles.

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

My issue is that Korath and Kurse are one and done characters and mainly side characters, like Maya Hansen was in Iron Man 3. If both had lived, I would be okay with those actors playing those roles again. I am happy we'll see Karen Gillian play Nebula again. And yes, while I do believe that Spader's Ultron is one and done, he's the main protagonist, something that Korath and Kurse are not.

That's been my issue that I hope Marvel rectifies soon. I don't know how they would bring Kurse or Korath back, but if both return for future movies, I'd be okay with the actors returning to those roles.

Maya Hansen was another waste of an overqualified actor. To think, they almost cast Jessica Chastain in that role. What an even bigger waste THAT would've been. *fingers crossed for Carol Danvers*

 

[Huddsy]

Heimdall, Korath, and Kurse aren't awesome because they're meaty, well-written parts that gave Elba, Hounsou, and Akinnuoye-Agbaje a lot of cool stuff to do. Those parts were awesome because they were played by those actors. The roles themselves were extremely insubstantial, and did not give any of those actors the opportunity to stretch anything near the full range of their talents—the actors themselves are just so damn talented that they were able to inject them with a ton of charisma, despite small screen time and non-existent character arcs.

A lot of white folk have played non-meaty roles, even people who were decent names like the above (i.e. Batroc, Heinz Kruger) . It happens. They needed actors for those roles. Heck look what they did with Union Jack... the way they went, we'll never get a Union Jack in costume.

Move on.