Chadwick Boseman is Black Panther! - Part 5

[Dr. Evil]

I wouldn't call GSP a decent actor. TWS is the only movie I've ever seen him in.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I'm increasing the chances of a BP movie to 80% with the recent release of the Age of Ultron trailer and the speculation of who Andy Serkis is playing.

 

[SuperT]

Sif had more character development (and screentime) on her episode of Agents of SHIELD than in both of the Thor movies.

And Idris Elba hasn't been used to satisfaction and is wasted as Heimdall when he (and AAA, who was wasted as Kurse and Djimon Hounsou who was wasted as Korath) could have all had roles in a BP film.

Couldn't agree with you more. Elba, Akinnuoye-Agbaje, and Hounsou were absolutely wasted potential.

 

[tamron]

Heck look what they did with Union Jack... the way they went, we'll never get a Union Jack in costume.

Why can't we? Couldn't Rogers' heroic sacrifice in TFA inspire Falsworth to become Union Jack? We know thanks to TWS that Falsworth didn't die in the war (The Smithsonian scene). UJ could easily make a cameo in Agent Carter or something if they really wanted to.

 

[Huddsy]

I wouldn't call GSP a decent actor. TWS is the only movie I've ever seen him in.

He's a big name in entertainment. Nothing to do with acting.

 

[Huddsy]

Why can't we? Couldn't Rogers' heroic sacrifice in TFA inspire Falsworth to become Union Jack? We know thanks to TWS that Falsworth didn't die in the war (The Smithsonian scene). UJ could easily make a cameo in Agent Carter or something if they really wanted to.

Could they? Sure.

But it's one of my (small) beefs with TFA (which I movie I like more than most), is that we won't get UJ or Dugan in modern times.

 

[fixxxer]

Who instead would you have cast for Maya Hansen, Korath, Kurse and Heimdall respectively for their talents not to have been wasted? Less talented actors? Isn't that kind of backward-ass thinking?

 

[fixxxer]

Caught up with this thread after 5 or 6 days... some fantastic, insightful posts by Dr. Cosmic, Nokio, E-Man and co. Really appreciated the read, guys.

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

A lot of white folk have played non-meaty roles, even people who were decent names like the above (i.e. Batroc, Heinz Kruger) . It happens. They needed actors for those roles. Heck look what they did with Union Jack... the way they went, we'll never get a Union Jack in costume.

Move on.

We have NOT had a lot of world-class white actors play non-meaty roles. Idris Elba is four-time Emmy nominee and Djimon Hounsou is a two-time Oscar nominee.

Additionally, the OVERWHELMING majority of strong roles in the MCU are played by white people. White dudes have every single leading role in every single Marvel movie so far.

Like, are actually going to try and argue that white actors and black actors are getting equal shrift here? There isn't even a single woman-of-color character with a name in any of the MCU films!

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

Who instead would you have cast for Maya Hansen, Korath, Kurse and Heimdall respectively for their talents not to have been wasted? Less talented actors? Isn't that kind of backward-ass thinking?

Yes! You do cast less talented actors! For the same reason you cast James Badge Dale for Eric Savin instead of casting Leonardo DiCaprio!

Then you cast the great actors in better roles. Djimon Hounsou took the part because he wanted to be in a superhero movie for his kids. The second Marvel talked to him they shoulda been like "Man, you are too good for this Korath role. We're gonna go with Michael Jai White or Kevin Grievioux or something. But listen, we have this Black Panther movie in the pipeline right now, and you would be perfect for T'Chaka."

I mean, like, is it not totally obvious that the only reason Marvel is able to get actors of that caliber for such nothing roles is that systemic inequalities make it harder for those actors to get real work?

 

[Dr. Evil]

Yes! You do cast less talented actors! For the same reason you cast James Badge Dale for Eric Savin instead of casting Leonardo DiCaprio!

Then you cast the great actors in better roles. Djimon Hounsou took the part because he wanted to be in a superhero movie for his kids. The second Marvel talked to him they shoulda been like "Man, you are too good for this Korath role. We're gonna go with Michael Jai White or Kevin Grievioux or something. But listen, we have this Black Panther movie in the pipeline right now, and you would be perfect for T'Chaka."

I mean, like, is it not totally obvious that the only reason Marvel is able to get actors of that caliber for such nothing roles is that systemic inequalities make it harder for those actors to get real work?

James Badge Dale is a character actor. That's who you cast for these lesser known roles.

 

[fixxxer]

Yes! You do cast less talented actors! For the same reason you cast James Badge Dale for Eric Savin instead of casting Leonardo DiCaprio!

Then you cast the great actors in better roles. Djimon Hounsou took the part because he wanted to be in a superhero movie for his kids. The second Marvel talked to him they shoulda been like "Man, you are too good for this Korath role. We're gonna go with Michael Jai White or Kevin Grievioux or something. But listen, we have this Black Panther movie in the pipeline right now, and you would be perfect for T'Chaka."

I mean, like, is it not totally obvious that the only reason Marvel is able to get actors of that caliber for such nothing roles is that systemic inequalities make it harder for those actors to get real work?

It's BLEEPing frustrating that there aren't more meaty roles for non-white characters in CBMs. That's the problem right there. There are a lot more talented actors of color out there than there are suitable CBM roles for said talented actors of color. I'm 100% with you on that. With you on the fact that it's a problem. And with you on how vexing it is!

What I don't agree with is that the solution is to hold out talented actors from roles in the hope that another more suitable role might open up some years down the line. You cast the best possible actor for a role as and when it opens up.

Also... MICHAEL K. WILLIAMS FOR T'CHAKA! GIVE ME OMAR OR GIVE ME DEATH! BY SAWED-OFF SHOTGUN!

 

[DarKush]

But it does need to be Americanized to be popular amongst Americans, which is kinda the point of American comics like Black Panther. What Hudlin did was make BP accessible. He even brought something as academic and historically divisive as African Colonialism and made it not just understandable, but valuableto people who still haven't quite figured out Africa is not a country. No amount of Doom being a racist or quotes from Diddy Dirty Money will take us back to the 2004 where BP wasn't even appearing in comics anymore, beyond guest spots in Disassembled, with no plans to revive him. What we have now: cartoons, being constantly in print, long term editorial angles, people of all ethnicities asking Feige about a BP film, all that flows from Hudlin inviting everyone into the BP experience. I think Priest's run was better, but because it wasn't as accessible, it wasn't as popular, so when Wesley Snipes tried to make a film of it, no one wanted to back it and assume the American audiences would leave things catered to them and go for things that are more catered to African audiences. Hudlin made great calls in framing the story. That should be commended, even if we have to condemn some of his other decisions as well, I don't know why we have to pretend like that didn't happen.

Its so crazy to me when people think that just because the GA understands something that they give a crap. The GA understands the dictionary. They're not going to spend 2 hours and $12 reading it though, even if the illustrations are nice. Do they give a crap about what's happening? Is it important to them, them being people largely unfamiliar with African history beyond it being a large desert/rural area where slaves came from?

Thanks. I agree that Hudlin attempted and arguably succeeded in making Panther more accessible. Panther certainly made more strides toward the mainstream under Hudlin than any other writer before or since. Under Hudlin we got the "Wedding of the Century" with a dress designed by a person from Guiding Light, he got a bestselling writer do do the Storm-Panther backstory (as controversial as that might be for some), and we got a Panther cartoon.

I would argue that Hudlin sought to grow the audience, to make Panther a character that could appeal to nonwhites, particularly blacks, who might not have been that much into the character previously or into comics in general. He didn't try to appease white fanboys, like an industry veteran like Priest did with using a white POV character, at least initially, during his run.

He created a black power fantasy to some extent and for that some fanboys will never forgive him. Was Hudlin the greatest writer? No. Was he the greatest creator? No. I definitely think he could've upped T'Challa's enemies, though he did a very good job with "Who is the Panther?", which played like a movie. And if we got that as a Panther film I would be pleased.

Compared to what came after Hudlin (Maberry, Liss, and now Hickman) I rate Hudlin even higher than I had before.

 

[DarKush]

You don't have to try and make BP relatable to American culture specifically black american culture. It just isn't the same. We all know what American culture is and BP has been around for decades. The guide line should be followed on how Wakanda was introduced and not change it. It does;t need to be Americanized to be understandable.

Why not? African cultures are often made relatable, or attempts are done so, for white people all the time, and there's no problem with it. How much knowledge of African cultures did McGregor, Kirby, or Priest have? And they aren't criticized like Hudlin. They were all Americans and they sought in different ways to make the character relatable enough to sell books.

IMO Hudlin was writing for his audience, or perhaps the audience he hoped to bring into comics, and perhaps he used cultural things that would mean something to that audience, and also might educate or enlighten non-American blacks.

 

[DarKush]

Hadn't seen you around in a while. Howdy.

Sounds to me like you've been keeping up with things in New Avengers. I am giving Hickman the benefit of the doubt that there's a nice endgame, but having Wakanda destroyed like that does not make me happy. This after having the other Panthers desert him makes me hate seeing them tear down T'Challa and Wakanda yet again. Hickman at least gets T'Challa's voice though, so I'm still along for the ride.

There's no issue with writing for an American audience. The issue is with writing someone like two guys who act very different from the way T'Challa has acted. P. Diddy and Spike Lee are outspoken guys, and in the case of Diddy he's flashy as all hell. Panther has either been written as an eloquent guy that's low key about his emotions, or someone who is possibly too humble to a fault. That's nothing like the two that Hudlin had in mind, and it shows. Had T'Challa been a new character it might not have been so bad, but T'Challa has been an established character since 1966. Winnick's Batwing was a brand new guy that could be built around any personality, and even then Winnick is just a much better writer than Hudlin is. Batwing was my favorite new 52 book up until the changed from David to Luke as Batwing, and a lot of that had to do with Winnick's writing. Hudlin's writing just isn't very good to cover up his mistakes. Liss' run was hamstrung by editorial, but he at least wrote a very nice story the best way that he could. I hated T'Challa stepping in for Daredevil, but the plot progression and villains were still pretty good. Hudlin on the other hand had all that he needed. He could take the Panther pretty much wherever he wanted, but he just isn't a good writer in this medium. He doesn't define his characters well enough for my liking, and there's other stupid stuff like having Black Panther walk around with the cursed Ebony Blade like it was nothing.

Hey man,

I've been around. I just don't post as much as I used to. But I saw this criticism of Mr. Hudlin and I had to jump in there. I don't think he was as bad as some people claimed and still claim. He wasn't great, but he had a respect for the Panther, and he brought a sense of racial consciousness or pride that I liked. It wasn't something you had to hide or speak quietly about with Hudlin's Panther. He was a strong, proud, virile man who had the respect of the world and the fear of his enemies. Granted some of his victories came too easily and there was too much tell and not enough show, but I enjoyed the marriage to Storm, it was great seeing black love like that in comic form. It's something you don't get a lot of in the media.

I was reading New Avengers but I gave up. When I first read Hickman's take on Panther, in one of the Fantastic Four books, I liked what I saw. I thought he was going to return Panther to glory. And in New Avengers when he told Namor he was going to kill him, I thought that was pretty badass. However they've punked out T'Challa by having him go back on that (Granted killing Namor was likely a no-no to begin with, but why even have T'Challa say it if not to chump him out?). I have liked some of what Shuri has done in the book and how she handled the Atlanteans. She's more of a warrior-monarch than T'Challa is.

Hickman's stories just dragged on for me and there was little action in the New Avengers books IMO. Just a lot of set up. I gave up after Infinity. I did like Infinity well enough, but I didn't feel like paying $4 for a bunch of build up.

With Maberry I thought he had a good set up with the "Power" arc but dropped the ball with "DoomWar", and opened the door for Wakanda to be taken down a peg or two perhaps to mollify the fanboys. And his "Klaws of the Panther" was one of the worst drawn books I had ever seen, and was another attempt to trashify Shuri.

Liss did the best he could I suppose. I liked Vlad the Impaler even though he felt small bore for T'Challa. I enjoyed the "Storm/Hunter" arc, and I liked T'Challa facing off against Kingpin and Lady Bullseye. However I thought the American Panther arc was too hamfisted.

With Priest, I don't see that much of a difference. I think Priest soft pedaled his take on T'Challa in with the Ross character and some 'funny' racial humor, perhaps meant to make some white fanboys feel at ease, that the Panther book wasn't going to make them feel guilty or beat them over the head with a racial message. However his Panther was just as strong or stronger than Hudlin's take. And Wakanda was a megapower, similar to Hudlin's run. Arguably Priest's villains were better, from what I recall, but it's been a while since I've read his books. I think Priest hurt himself by being too clever with his style of writing early on. I think it would be something that was different and might appeal to comic readers looking for the innovative and unique, but might turn off casual or first time readers.

But overall I enjoyed Priest's run. I enjoyed Hudlin's run. I don't see one as that much better than the other, though Priest did a better job with Killmonger. Hudlin wasted him. I also liked Priest's idea of T'Challa as a Ra's Al Ghul character. And Priest perhaps did a better job with the Dora Milaje.

 

[RockSP]

This is the most TIRED and absolutely frustratingly nonsensical opinion that you keep pushing. They weren't WASTED. They played awesome parts in the MCU. That's it.

I happen to agree with him about Hounsou. That bit part in GOTG could've gone to anybody, and Hounsou would've been great as T'chaka (assuming there will ever be a Black Panther movie).

 

[Lilbaz]

We have NOT had a lot of world-class white actors play non-meaty roles. Idris Elba is four-time Emmy nominee and Djimon Hounsou is a two-time Oscar nominee.

Additionally, the OVERWHELMING majority of strong roles in the MCU are played by white people. White dudes have every single leading role in every single Marvel movie so far.

Like, are actually going to try and argue that white actors and black actors are getting equal shrift here? There isn't even a single woman-of-color character with a name in any of the MCU films!

Because the super heroes who had successful comic book runs are predominantly white.

 

[SlamAdams]

Who instead would you have cast for Maya Hansen, Korath, Kurse and Heimdall respectively for their talents not to have been wasted? Less talented actors? Isn't that kind of backward-ass thinking?

Being less talented than Rebecca Hall, Djimon Honsou, and Idris Elba is not the same as being bad. Those 3 are remarkably good

 

[Nokio]

I wouldn't call GSP a decent actor. TWS is the only movie I've ever seen him in.

Who GSP?

 

[RockSP]

Yes! You do cast less talented actors! For the same reason you cast James Badge Dale for Eric Savin instead of casting Leonardo DiCaprio!

Then you cast the great actors in better roles. Djimon Hounsou took the part because he wanted to be in a superhero movie for his kids. The second Marvel talked to him they shoulda been like "Man, you are too good for this Korath role. We're gonna go with Michael Jai White or Kevin Grievioux or something. But listen, we have this Black Panther movie in the pipeline right now, and you would be perfect for T'Chaka."

I mean, like, is it not totally obvious that the only reason Marvel is able to get actors of that caliber for such nothing roles is that systemic inequalities make it harder for those actors to get real work?

I wouldn't go that far. I mean level of fame and level of talent are unrelated. But the gist of what you're saying I agree with.

 

[smashmode]

Steven Weintraub @colliderfrosty
can't say why because I won't spoil it, but I'm now a lot more excited for tomorrow's Marvel event. Think it's going to be a fun morning.

 

[Nokio]

Thanks. I agree that Hudlin attempted and arguably succeeded in making Panther more accessible. Panther certainly made more strides toward the mainstream under Hudlin than any other writer before or since. Under Hudlin we got the "Wedding of the Century" with a dress designed by a person from Guiding Light, he got a bestselling writer do do the Storm-Panther backstory (as controversial as that might be for some), and we got a Panther cartoon.

I would argue that Hudlin sought to grow the audience, to make Panther a character that could appeal to nonwhites, particularly blacks, who might not have been that much into the character previously or into comics in general. He didn't try to appease white fanboys, like an industry veteran like Priest did with using a white POV character, at least initially, during his run.

He created a black power fantasy to some extent and for that some fanboys will never forgive him. Was Hudlin the greatest writer? No. Was he the greatest creator? No. I definitely think he could've upped T'Challa's enemies, though he did a very good job with "Who is the Panther?", which played like a movie. And if we got that as a Panther film I would be pleased.

Compared to what came after Hudlin (Maberry, Liss, and now Hickman) I rate Hudlin even higher than I had before.

I'm sorry but clearly we weren't reading the same books. If I want to see black power fantasies or undertones about a pimp and his women who are labeled as bodyguards or racial overtones about evil whitey I'll watch many of the Hollywood movies that come out with all black casts. I love comics and I don't want see that in comics books. We get one of the few Black characters who is popular and I don't want some writer using this as his vehicle to get his message or frustrations out about the racial inequality here in the states. I don't want BP and Wakanda dumbed down and american urbanized to appeal to a black demographic that loves whats being called hiphop/rap today and where them terrible trashy reality shows like Love and Hiphop that is flooded on VH1 and BET is not to be missed tv. That is the demographic that Hudlin is writing for, to appeal to that crowd. I've seen enough of the crap. I want to enjoy the fantastical element of Comics. Is that too much to ask or do you not get it. The racial aspect has been touched on enough move on.

I hated Shuri as Panther and ruler and still do. Marvel has tore down Wakanda and it all started with Hudlin. Jack Kirby would be rolling over in his grave if he can see how Wakanda has been taken apart and on a path to be like a lot of the other African countries where corruption and instability is everywhere. Thank you Mr Hudlin for opening the door to allow other writers to decimate Wakanda's once regal legacy.

 

[Suzanne78]

Priest series is considered the defining run by most fans, but before him Don McGregor did much of the world building of Wakanda. He wrote BP's first solo series Jungle Action where T'Challa comes back to Wakanda to find that Erik Killmonger has been destroying many villages in Wakanda in a coup attempt. That largely defined a lot of the Black Panther world. Gil Kane and Billy Graham were the primary artists on that title. McGregor comes back in 1991 to do a 4 issue miniseries called Panther's Prey.

Then there's Jack Kirby's Black Panther. The King did both writing and art on it, and that lasted 15 issues with him doing art and writing on 12.

Outside of that you have Priest's series lasting 62 issues, and Hudlin's lasting 41 issues before being rebooted for another 12.

Thank you so much! I'm saving your post and seeing what's up on Marvel Unlimited!

t:

 

[Dr. Evil]

Steven Weintraub @colliderfrosty
can't say why because I won't spoil it, but I'm now a lot more excited for tomorrow's Marvel event. Think it's going to be a fun morning.

It means either T'Challa or Carol. Hell, maybe both, which is what I am hoping for.

 

[Raiden]

It means either T'Challa or Carol. Hell, maybe both, which is what I am hoping for.

Yeah, I want both! Marvel, you better not disappoint us!