The Mandalorian Chapter Sixteen Spoiler Discussion

Yea I know Mark and Sebastian have had banter about it on Instagram.

 

Okay. I've now watched the finale a couple of times and had a bit of time to process what I saw. I have a lot of happy emotions, a few mixed ones, and a few hot takes. Gonna keep it real here.

The finale itself....was a bit lackluster IMO. The opening with the Slave I vs the Imperial Shuttle was awesome. It was nice seeing all the ladies kick some ass. But Mando vs Moff was kind of a letdown for me. I feel like they built up that confrontation and Moff as this big baddie, but just didn't quite deliver the goods there. Mando won far too easily and quickly IMO. Overall, I think "The Believer" was a superior episode overall and more of an example of the show at its best.

There were things I really loved about *that thing* in this episode. Look, just seeing the green sabre in action again is a joy. My inner 9 year old was screaming. And I think they got his fighting style right! It wasn't over the top and overly twirly like the Vader Rogue One scene. I appreciated that. It's also clear that the entire purpose of the Dark Troopers was always to give Luke something to go Jedi Master on without being a mass murderer. And the way the moment unfolded as it slowly became apparent what was about to happen, worked. Exchange with my wife as we watched.

Wife- "When does this take place again?"
Me- "5 years after Return of the Jedi."
Wife- "...Is Luke about to save Baby Yoda?"
Me- "I think so."
Wife- "That's...pretty awesome."

So the beat, even while being a clear moment of fan service and a deus ex machina, works. The show acknowledges its place in the grander lore here and gives us and Luke a moment that we've always dreamed of. And that is undeniably cool. Hearing the Force theme (I think for the first time in the show?) as Luke removed his hood gave chills. The moment with R2 and Grogu melted my heart. How could it not?

I was 100% on board with everything I was seeing there....except Luke's face. I'm sorry. I have to be honest. It wasn't good. I didn't like it with Tarkin or Leia in Rogue One, and I don't like it here. It instantly kind of cheapens the whole moment and gives it this video game cut-scene-ish feel. Now, if you freeze frame it, it looks pretty good. Almost photo-real. But in action? Woof. So stiff and robotic. The dialogue doesn't even match the lip movement. It has that dead behind the eyes, uncanny valley for sure. It was an honest try, in no way hating on ILM because they've done INCREDIBLE work this season...but the technology just isn't there yet for this particular technique. Or maybe it was a performance issue with the actor. I'm not sure, but whatever it was...it completely took me out of the moment, and that was a shame. I don't even know what the solution is, because I'm not loving the idea of Sebastian Stan or another actor playing him either. It is just bizarre, because I've seen deepfakes on Youtube that pull this effect off more convincingly.



I'm sorry, this is better. It's still definitely not perfect, but to me it feels closer to approaching something human and less video game. And it's probably an insult to VFX artists to point it out, because the method they're doing is SO much more involved and takes so much more skill to pull off. But it's currently missing that element that sells you on it being a human being.

My other (and last) hot take is that Crait > this scene. I know this scene is what everyone wanted there and would've probably made people stand and cheer in the theater, and I'd bet TLJ (or TFA had it happened there) wouldn't be nearly as hated as a result. But for me, seeing Luke perform this transcendent, next-level use of the Force without even physically being present, was the moment I didn't know I needed. Seeing him swing his lightsaber around and cut up some droids as a peak-Jedi was bonkers. It was something I always wanted to see, and never figured I would. And the green lightsaber will always reign supreme. I'm glad to live in a world where I got both, but I still have the note the difference.

Oh, and also. I completely see how the Luke we just saw would turn into "Jake" in another 25 years. He completely has "I am now a stoic badass with mighty Skywalker blood running through my veins" vibes. We don't even see him smile at Grogu. He feels aloof here, to me. And definitely still has tinges of anger and emotion with that force crush of the Dark Trooper. He pretty much did that just because he could. So yeah. This brief glimpse into where he's at 5 years post-ROTJ only reinforced TLJ's characterization and why he ends up failing, as far as I'm concerned.

To turn this positive again. Back to what @DarthSkywalker beautifully stated in the original post in this thread. I talked about getting what you need vs what you want. Well, 2020 has been one of the worst years we've ever had to endure. And I think getting to see Luke as a peak-Jedi...for a lot of people, it meant something. Myself included. It was something they didn't know they needed. And that's a wonderful thing. It's also been wonderful to finally be having some of my ST-hating friends excited about SW again, and people able to unify and geek out with them. I'm so grateful the show has given that back to me. My criticisms here are more about the execution, not the intention behind it. I think the show has given us enough quality that it's only a compliment to the show overall that I'm getting nitpicky here. I hold it up to a high standard and don't want to just give it a pass when I see room for improvement.

Also, I freaking loved the post-credits scene and can't wait for The Book of Boba Fett....whatever it is. The way Boba just casually shoots Bib Fortuna was some dark comedic sh**. They did an INCREDIBLE job recreating Jabba's palace and the ROTJ vibe there. We truly live in an age of wonders.

 

That's the thing. I think sometimes people perhaps confuse the Luke Skywalker they imagined when playing with their action figures or from video games and the actual Luke Skywalker as presented on screen in the films.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the badass Luke. I sure ain't above it. But I think it can be a bit of a disservice to the character's inherent humanity and reliability to act like that somehow should be a defining trait. Luke Skywalker was never Rambo. In fact he stood out in stark contrast to many of the action heroes of the 80s for that very reason.

 

Oh, good to know.

Now that all the characters are aware of him they’re going to need a reason for him to be out of the picture whenever other major threats arise if they don’t want to use him.

 

Everyone's missing the most important appearance in the episode, and I've had it up to here with the disrespect.

Spoiler

The menu board for the restaurant Bo and co. are in features Space Waffles.

 

I thought it strange the other Mandalorian Bo-Katan was with, wasn't in this episode. I wonder what happened there.

 

Eh, I don’t see why. He came for Grogu, to train him as a Jedi. I don’t think he’d be expected to intervene in every crisis.

 

I'd assume his schedule just didn't line-up.

Mark Hamill has personally endorsed Stan taking over the role, though. If they do recast, I'd honestly be shocked at this point if it wasn't him. But yeah, this episode and the line-up we got last week seems to make it clear that there's no plans for Luke to have a major role going forward. Which is kind of a bummer but, after Solo, I understand why they're reluctant, even if it's IMO a misguided assessment.

 

This. It makes me sad that some people seem more excited about the Mandalorian's climax as validating their hatred of Johnson's interpretation of Luke than the scene itself.

They're both great scenes. How you depict Luke in his prime and how you depict him as an old man at the end of his life should be completely different. Crait is a deeper and more nuanced scene while Mandalorian's finale is the best kind of fan service: beautifully shot, emotionally satisfying, giving you something you've always wanted to see but never really got and unlike most fan service (especially in Star Wars where it feels like the franchise has devolved into desperately begging for the audiences love by reminding them of the past) it felt like the natural place to go. It felt special, and Star Wars feeling special is something I miss and I don't think we'll ever really get back in full.

 

Damn. What would be a typical top 5 list that you’ve seen? Seems crazy that Luke doesn’t make them. He was always my favourite being the earnest hero amongst all the anti-heroes.

 

It would be interesting to see what they could do with a mega budget.

 

Favreau and Filoni are great but I wouldn't want this style to be what all of Star Wars is. They're a bit too reverential and traditional for me. I'd worry this style wouldn't pack much of a punch anymore if it was omnipresent.

 

Exactly. This scene also just proves that Luke Skywalker can represent different archetypes at different points in his journey. That is one of great things about him and speaks to his strength as one of the major anchors of Star Wars as a whole.

ANH Luke= The farm boy, the idealistic dreamer who wants to find his place in the galaxy.
ESB Luke= Starting to come into his own, but still with a lot to learn.
ROTJ/Mando Luke= Badass Jedi. Still hopeful and compassionate, while dealing with some anger that the burden of knowledge has brought him.
ST Luke= Tired and weary from yet more tragedy and cycles repeating themselves. Ultimately finds hope again, and finally transcends to a more angelic/god-like figure as a Force Ghost. At peace.

I mean it's such a rich and full character journey, and so human. He is still as aspirational character at the end of the day. His flaws and shortcomings only highlight that more, because he always finds his way in the end. If we had just gotten the same Luke as in Mando but with a beard in the ST, it would've been a huge missed opportunity to give him an arc and experience a final stage of character growth at the end of his life.

 

The most consistently great, maybe even the only consistently great, part of SW is Luke's arc. Even though the sequel trilogy ended on a note I profoundly dislike, Rise of Skywalker is by no means the worst Star Wars movie but it is the one that does the most harm to the story overall, the nearly complete picture we get of Luke's life story is pretty much perfect to me.

 

Check out the reaction videos on YouTube, because you weren't alone ! People lost their minds when he turned up. Honestly, it was such an obvious thing to do - have the de facto protagonist of the massively successful original series turn up for an awesome cameo - that nobody's thought of it until now is just baffling.

Why make Luke a broken old man ? Why make the rebellion and return of the republic total failures that were obliterated in seconds of screentime ? Why make 3 movies that are a massive downer, when the original series had a sense of sheer joy about it?

Honestly,

 

Fanboys tend not to be for subtlety. It is why so many discussions devolve down into power level type bull****. They want their power fantasy character to be a power fantasy.

I also think the Crait scene is better mainly because we get to see Luke's face and get some personality in it. Here, most of the time Luke is just a masked, nameless Jedi.

In the old days, there were a wide, wide variety of Star Was fandoms. Still are, but the recent lack of eras has sort of put a hold on it, a bit. With the EU fans, you could get lists with out any movie characters. Hell, you had the fandalorians actively preaching Traviss' bull**** that all Jedi were evil.

 

Frankly, the reaction to the Luke scene is EXACTLY why Abrams tried to revert back to Empire vs Rebellion.

 

Probably, but he utterly failed to do so in a way that engages with an audience on anywhere near the same emotional level that the original films did.

As for reverting to Empire vs Rebellion, that's kind of symptomatic of Abrams' misunderstanding of what made original star wars great. The story is important but it's those three lead characters that make it worth watching,and the way in which a story is told is just as important as its content.

Abrams' trilogy comes off ( at least to me) as extremely derivative - and those twists and turns which could have had some impact ...fell flat.
Ironically, IMO Johnson gave Luke a good ending in TLJ, far better than Abrams handled Solo's death or the Emperor's return.

He could have very easily had a new Empire rise to threaten the republic without wiping it out in one of the cheapest storytelling moves ever.

 

Eh. Much more interested in how they painted the Skywalker story as a big epic family tragedy, especially since Kylo Ren retroactively makes me kinda like prequel Anakin because now the whole thing feels like a fascinating case of hereditary emotional problems and history repeating itself. I have zero emotional attachment to the victory of the OT being permanent, the only thing that really undercuts the OT about the sequels to me is Palpatine - that the aftermath would be messy and complicated and maybe not ultimately work out for the best just feels like the natural way to go.

The First Order/Rebellion dynamic was weird and undercooked though. The First Order should've felt way more insurgent, a kind of reversal of the Empire/Rebel Alliance dynamic - at least at first.

 

It's weird to me to see ST haters being so against Mando or any of the new canon connecting to the ST. I think we can all agree that one of the fundamental problems with the ST was not just that it reset the conflict-- but it did so with very little context as to how that happened-- why the First Order and Resistance exist, and what the New Republic was even like. This was an intentional choice because Abrams wanted to recreate the "in media res" aspect of A New Hope with the good guys up against impossible odds.

But there is ample opportunity here to flesh out the 30 year period between trilogies, and give it what we all wanted-- more context. Like it or not, Mando already seems to be doing that. We've gotten allusions to cloning with what seems like an inevitable connection to Palpatine's contigency plan/Snoke. Kind of a big plot point there. Heck, Ludwig even worked in John Williams' March of the Resistance theme into one of the episodes this season. The continuity is all lining up, some people are just in denial about it and refusing to accept the reality that the sequels are canon. They have to view the show as some sort of rebuttal to the thing they hate in order to allow themselves to like it.

It doesn't mean they are just going to lay track and only focus on linking up the movies. No, that would be boring anyway. The point is to add new layers and ideas, and tell stories within stories. They're clearly setting things up that will spin off in all sorts of directions. Grogu's entire existence causes major ripple effects across the entire SW timeline-- from the prequel era to possibly the post-sequel era (NO WAY are they going to have him die at Kylo's hands). Grogu is still out there post-TROS, I'm sure of it.

It's just sad that some fans would choose erasing 3 films from canon just to have a "victory" and nerd rage validated, when the option to re-contexualize and strengthen their place in the saga is right there and kind of already happening. It wouldn't magically fix problems with the movies the same way Clone Wars didn't magically fix the prequels, but there's a lot that can be done to finesse the rougher or less fleshed out parts of the lore here. That's kind of Dave Filoni's speciality.