Characterization of the Knight - Nolan and Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman - Part 2

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by Thread Manager, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. Anita18

    Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    If anything, I think Rachel was inadvertently so. She tried being honest with Bruce, but he simply refused to see the truth in front of him. :oldrazz:

    In TDKR, it seems that Selina is supposed to be the femme fatale, but that role is really Tatelia's. Yes, Selina is mysterious and sensual, and uses her feminine wiles to trick men, but she was always more or less honest with Bruce. Aside from locking him in with Bane, of course. :oldrazz: (Although I'm not sure what else he expected, since she did do what he asked of her, no more and no less. Did he really think she would help him fight Bane? :huh: )

    Tatelia seems on the outside to be pure of heart like Rachel was, but showed her true femme fatale-ness at the end. That trickery makes her the ultimate femme fatale, I suppose. :funny:
     
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  2. Victarion

    Victarion Iron Captain

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    He probably expected Selina to not lock him in with Bane. :oldrazz:
     
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  3. Anita18

    Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    Yeah, but the fight still would have happened. And I don't think Bruce would have tried to escape anyway, gate or no gate.

    it would have made it harder for him to leave if he'd been victorious, but being locked in anywhere has never stopped Batman. :oldrazz:

    I actually wonder now, if "You've made a serious mistake" was in regards to her believing that she could save herself when dealing with Bane. And she interpreted it as "I shouldn't have led him to Bane" (like the audience surely did) instead of "I shouldn't have thought I could negotiate with Bane." Although we do see her trying to flee immediately after, so maybe she got his point too.

    I mean, Bruce really did have a death wish at that point, and expected only one of them to walk out of that fight. If Selina hadn't led him to Bane, he would have found another way. She just happened to be the most convenient avenue. Perhaps that's why he isn't all that angry with her when they meet again. :oldrazz:
     
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  4. kvz5

    kvz5 HBIC

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    We're on the same page. :highfive: I always loved that quick flash of emotional vulnerability on her face when he first re-appeared in Gotham (before she reverted to her nonchalant one) after escaping the pit. And it also cracks me up how she had that look and Bruce is just all :D (ok, maybe more like just a :)).


    I've always interpreted it as him warning her that she shouldn't have trusted Bane with whatever deal they worked out (in exchange for Batman).
     
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  5. kvz5

    kvz5 HBIC

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    :up: I don't think it was a coincidence too that she dresses (and styles) just like Rachel. Heck, she most likely researched on Rachel so she can make sure that she hits that special Rachel nerve on Bruce. :funny:

    I do love me some parallels... Gotta love how they did similar actions but with totally different motivations:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  6. Anita18

    Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    He's probably thinking, "Aww, isn't that cute, she has a heart after all!" :woot:

    Well, it seems that most of the folks here seem to have interpreted it the other way.

    Selina at least partially interpreted it like she shouldn't have led him to Bane, the way that she cracked when Blake asked her about Bruce. I mean, she didn't know how much Bruce was resolved to fight Bane in the first place. She even half-offered to apologize to him, which wouldn't have occurred to her at all if she hadn't felt guilty.

    They probably did, the :ninja: that they are.

    Also, if Bruce had said yes to Tatelia's offer of a flight outta there, I expect his face would have met with a chloroform-soaked towel in short order, so the result would have been the same no matter what. :funny:
     
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  7. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    I know this wasn't directed at me, but IMO, the main thing that kept Bruce and Rachel from being together was his growing obsession with Batman. Other than that, there really isn't anything on a script/story level that suggests that Bruce and Rachel were incompatible.

    I dislike Rachel and felt Bale had little chemistry with both her actresses. But I do think that Rachel is intended to be the love of Nolan Bruce's life. IMO, Him moving on with Selina is similar to a widow being remarried
     
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  8. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see it that way. Selina is who he's destined to move on with. Forever? Who knows. But Rachel couldn't accept Bruce's alter ego. She shouldn't accept every aspect of him and that's why it was never destined to happen. Which is why he doesn't move on with her in the end, because it simply wasn't meant to be.

    Selina accepts every part of Bruce because she can relate to a lot of it. Rachel was just a very different person.

    They were never lovers. Even the way it was written, it always seemed like they were just really great friends and Bruce loved her but I think he was mistaken in thinking it was more than just friendship. All because Bruce connects Rachel to his past, his childhood, his parents, Gotham, etc. That's part of the reason why he couldn't get past Rachel. It's not even really her, it's what she represents. Just like his parents for Batman. With Selina, she doesn't really have ties to Gotham, his parents, Alfred, Wayne Manor, all of that stuff.

    Id say he looked at Rachel and im not sure if he saw the woman in front of him but only what she symbolizes. With Selina he actually is only looking at the person in front of him. In this universe Bruce and Selina is the real couple. Harvey just saw Rachel for who she was especially in that moment in time. It's like Bruce refuses to think she's changed because he's constantly thinking of the Rachel that was playing with him when they were 9. That's not how **** works! And that's ALL because Bruce didn't get a chance to grow up properly and learn simple lessons. He's always that child either the night his parents died or wishing it was before that night.

    Rachel evolved and Bruce never did and that's why Harvey was her best partner. As is Selina for Bruce.
     
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  9. Anita18

    Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    Yeah um, that's all Bruce is, really. :funny: That and he was a thrillseeker and loved fast cars and gadgets (likely even without Batman in the picture), and she looked down on that too.

    And Rachel lectured him, constantly disapproving what he was doing instead of letting him be what he was. I'm sorry, but that's not a healthy relationship. Yes, your partner should call you out on your BS if warranted, but they shouldn't want you to be a different person entirely.

    Selina implored with him to see her side, but she was finally of the "if you can't beat them, join them" mindset in the end. :funny: And now that they're together, I think she'll use her own abilities to make sure Bruce doesn't get too far into the deep end. Alfred couldn't physically make sure Bruce is safe, but Selina can. And Bruce won't make her be someone else, but he can certainly use his charm to convince her. :cwink:

    That's why I felt she was a far better match for Bruce than Rachel was. Incidentally, my relationship with my husband is more akin to Selina and Bruce's despite the fact that we are far more boring. :oldrazz:
     
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  10. shauner111

    shauner111 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  11. kvz5

    kvz5 HBIC

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    Yeah, I think Bruce is just in love with the idea of loving someone like Rachel. She represents the life he could've had if his parents didn't die. I like your assessment too that Harvey saw Rachel for what she really is.
     
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  12. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    I'm assuming you're referring to the Hotel scene in Batman Begins, where Rachel is only upset that Bruce is seemingly doing shallow things while Gotham needs to be fixed.

    Rachel lectured him because, a lot of the time Bruce was doing questionable things: Wanting to kill Joe Chill. Seemingly wasting his life buying hotels and riding around with random chicks. Wanting to turn himself in to end Joker's crime spree, which was not a surefire plan in the least bit. Alot of what she did WAS calling Bruce out on some of his BS.

    Rachel is a badly executed character, but I can't act like Rachel was some harpy who demanded that Bruce change. After finding out he was Batman, she tells Bruce that Thomas would be proud of him. The one truly crappy thing Rachel does is be wishy washy in regards to her relationship with both Bruce and Dent throughout the movie.


    It's funny that you say Selina wanted him to see her side, because she never really makes an effort to see his, IMO...especially in regards to his number one rule.

    Honestly, Rachel showed a better understanding of Bruce than Selina did, and I think Bruce could've ended up with either one depending on circumstance. I still think that because of the impact Rachel had on his life, she is pretty much the love of this version of Batman's life.
     
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  13. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    I think Bruce had both his similarities and differences with both women.

    Why do people act like Bruce had this one sided delusional love? Rachel straight up described him as "The Man I loved", and promised him they'd be together once he'd stop being Batman.

    Once again, I don't think Bruce is as delusional about Rachel as everyone wants to believe at least not in the way everyone assumes ("he just sees the old her,not the new one"). Does he put enormous expectation on her as his "one hope for a normal life?" Yes. But only because she told him that she thought about him and their relationship the whole seven years he was gone, and promised she'd be with him when he was done being Batman.

    I mean....all in all, I just don't see this Bruce/Selina thing as Bruce going "Selina's my alltime soulmate I'm destined to be with! My love for Rachel was only rooted in childhood nostalgia!" I see it as more like "Rachel's gone and I realize that she moved on. Let's see where this relationship with this attractive Cat Burglar goes."
     
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  14. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Out of curiosity can you explain why you think Selina is unquestionably the one for Bruce based on what you saw between them in TDKR?
     
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  15. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    ^ That's my main thing...I don't think the way their relationship developed in TDKR merits all this "She's his soulmate" talk.

    I mean, if Miranda wasn't a complete lie, Bruce would've probably been in Italy with her instead of Selina.
     
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  16. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Yes Batsy, I know how much you loathe the idea of Bruce having a soul mate in any general medium of Batman, especially if it's Selina.

    Don't worry you always have me :hoboj:
     
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  17. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    ^ I just imagine you saying these things, then laughing in the same manner as your avy, lol
     
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  18. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    lol I take that as a compliment. Out of all the versions of Batman that there's been; West, Keaton, Bale, Kilmer, Conroy etc, which Batman do you think you'd be most like?

    I imagine you like Conroy the most. He doesn't kill, he is hot for both Selina and Talia but can never be with either one, he has an intensely good rivalry with the Joker, and he can be hard headed but in a good way ;)
     
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  19. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    There's no way I'd be West, Kilmer, or Clooney, lol.

    I couldn't imagine myself being like Bale's Batman.

    I think its between Keaton or Conroy, for the reasons you stated. Mostly the hard headed-ness.

    And it was definitely a compliment, lol.
     
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  20. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    See I can't picture you like Keaton, because his Batman tried to settle down with Selina at the end of Returns, he's a brutal killer, and his Bruce is kind of reclusive and a weirdo. If you were Bruce Wayne, I'd say you'd do what Bale and Conroy did. Flash the money around. Keep up the playboy image:

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    That image is...glorious.
     
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  22. milost

    milost Well-Known Member

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    If that's the case, you need to add those two in your cool avatar set up. I never noticed that both of those incarnations were missing until now. :funny:



    [​IMG]
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  23. Anita18

    Anita18 DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!

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    Don't tell me you forgot the, "Oh BROTHER" look on Rachel's face when Bruce shows up in that helicopter with the two models at the penthouse fundraiser. :funny: She already knows he's Batman at that point - she's just not impressed with his theatrics.

    She told Bruce that she couldn't be with him until he wasn't Batman anymore. I'd say that's wanting him to change, or at least putting a conditional on things. That's certainly not accepting who he is, which one HAS to do to be in a healthy relationship.

    And I don't think she was a harpy, either. She cared for him, and in the end, knew that she wasn't right for him anyway and tried to be honest about that once her decision was final. (Thanks Alfred :oldrazz: )

    But she did. She stopped thinking of herself and came back to help him save Gotham. (I can just imagine her cursing him under her breath as she turns the Batpod around at the tunnel. :funny: )

    Up until then, she did what she reasonably could to help others, but if she was actually in danger, she was outta there. It was always about looking out for number one, and thanks to Bruce, it wasn't anymore.

    And besides, not killing isn't exactly Batman's "number one" rule. :oldrazz: It's his one rule that he can't break in his line of work, but he's never said it was the first one he'd ever consider. I'd argue that he's a rescuer above all - when someone's life is in immediate danger, he rescues them instead of going after the bad guy.

    Well, duh, Rachel knew him longer. But she just because she understood him better at that point in time, doesn't mean that she accepted him better. At its root, a relationship isn't about understanding, it's about acceptance.

    I don't believe in soulmates. :oldrazz: But I certainly think Selina's life path in TDKR matched up much better with Bruce's life path, than Rachel's ever did.
     
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  24. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    I mean, its not like Selina accepted Playboy Bruce Wayne either. It's not until Bruce loses his money that Selina shows even the slightest bit of compassion for Bruce...even then, Bruce recognizes that she's lying. It's when she realizes that Bruce is Batman that she changes her feelings towards him.

    Either way, I can't judge Rachel for not caring for a persona that isn't real.

    I can't hold that against Rachel considering that this version of Bruce dosen't want to be Batman for long either. If this were the "I'm all about the mission" Batman of the comics, I could see your point. In the end, she leaves him because she realizes Bruce hasn't let go of his demons yet.

    Also, people are forgetting that Selina wanted him to quit being Batman as well ("Run away with me"), not to mention the pressure Alfred put on him to finally retire. In truth, the only character who actually didn't want Bruce to change was Fox.

    This version of Selina and Bruce only get together when Bruce stops being Batman....which is basically what Rachel initially wanted to do in the first place.


    I think she helped Bruce because she cares for Bruce, not for the whole city. She does not share his level of idealism or compassion. And as much as people like to say he and Rachel were incompatible, Rachel did share his idealism and compassion.

    If it's his one rule, I'm pretty sure its his "Number one" rule by default, lol. Either way, Catwoman murders Bane in cold blood, when she really didn't have to. Firing a cannon is overkill.


    Joker knew Batman all of what, two weeks and showed a better understanding of him than Selina did. I don't think Selina necessarily "accepted" him more than Rachel did. Relationships are sometimes about timing. Bruce wasn't ready to move on from being Batman at the time of BB/TDK, which is one of the main factors is Rachel choosing Harvey. However, by the end of TDKR, not only is Rachel dead, but Bruce realizes she chose harvey. Not to mention that the love interest he had for most of that movie was a lie created by his enemy. The timing for him to get with Selina was perfect.
     
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  25. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

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    Which reminds me...I do need a new Avatar, lol.
     
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