Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - Part 10

[Kahran Ramsus]

Not compareable. Stark has created working A.I that he has full control over before. Him assuming he could control Ultron was in character and understandable. He's done it before. Lex however hasn't created life before. That's the difference.

Also, Stark never meant for Ultron to become aware when it did AND he left JARVIS behind as a failsafe just in case. There was no reason for Stark to expect that Ultron would activate on its own AND destroy JARVIS in a matter of seconds without Stark even being present.

And despite all of that, he was heavily criticized in universe (including by himself) for screwing up.

It isn't remotely the same thing as Luthor's stupidity.

 

[Greens]

In badly written films, yes. Or even simply badly written villains. The Joker's plan in TDK doesn't fail because of it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, it is because in his first meeting with Batman, the Joker has underestimated the goodness in Bruce and people in general. It is why he assumes the people on the boat will kill each other. He couldn't break him, no matter what he did. He terrorized his city, took his love from him, turned Harvey mad and almost made Bruce responsible for the Joker's death. And yet he never broke, instead taking on the persona that he did, to save Gotham.

That is the brilliance of something like TDK, the direct comparisons to Bruce and Harvey. That is why it is a great movie, and great Batman story in general. And where BvS is pretty awful and has little to nothing to do with the characters of the Dark Knight or the Man of Steel.

Obviously BvS doesn't deserve to lick TDK's heel, but what I mean is that there's this trope:

Hero: You didn't REALLY think that.....
Villain: Oh, ****!

A villain can be as brilliant as Einstein, but there's always going to be a flaw that seals their doom.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Tony Stark is a reactionary idiot in AoU. That isn't a problem because Tony Stark is a reactionary idiot. That comes with his demons, including being a heavy drinker. It is why Civil War makes sense. How many stories of Batman losing something has there been? How many of them result in a homicidal manic, who doesn't listen to reason? Not even in the moment here, we are talking about at least a little time since the Robin tragedy has happened.

I also find it funny that The Dark Knight Returns is the story people remember for Superman and Batman fighting, because that comic itself is forced to make Superman an idiotic government pawn for it to happen.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Obviously BvS doesn't deserve to lick TDK's heel, but what I mean is that there's this trope:

Hero: You didn't REALLY think that.....
Villain: Oh, ****!

A villain can be as brilliant as Einstein, but there's always going to be a flaw that seals their doom.

A flaw in the plan is one thing. The problem is each step of Lex's plan is flawed. Lex isn't Einstein because his plan is way to stupid to claim he is brilliant.

 

[TeeKay]

Let's talk about Lex's plan.

Spoiler

It's dumb, over complicated and it requires WAY TOO MANY lucky things to happen for it to work. The end.

 

[jmc]

I missed the whole Martha thing in the previous thread so I'll through in my two cents here. That scene doesn't work because of two illogical reasons. 1 - Batman already acknowledges Superman has parents during the fight - 'I bet your parents said you were special', or words to that effect. And 2 - no person raised in a typical western society in the near death situation like Clark was would ever refer to their parent by their first name. The second one is the most damning thing about the scene, it tries to get the audience to buy into the idea that someone would actually call their mother by their first name when they are on the verge of death . In that situation it's not 'Save Martha', it's 'Save Mum', 'Mom', 'Ma' 'Mother', 'Mamma', etc, it's not Martha because you would never say that. The only time in my life I ever called my mother by her first name is in a crowded room so I can grab her attention, but she is still Mum to me, and that's the same for 99% of people raised in western society. That scene fails because it's not logical for a Kansas raised farm boy to say those words, instead he says them because the creative team couldn't figure out another way to make the idea of linking the mothers together work. That is the epitome of bad story telling, because it's an idea that doesn't work and yet they force it in anyway.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

^That and "HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT NAME? MARTHA" is silly cause Superman called him 'Bruce', that didn't make Bat from Gotham flinch even a tiny bit.

 

[Flint Marko]

^ All of that, plus Batman has seemingly done zero research into this guy he's been plotting to kill for 18 months. If this conflict doesn't fall under the textbook definition of "contrived", I don't know what would.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I said all this in the last thread.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^That and "HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT NAME? MARTHA" is silly cause Superman called him 'Bruce', that didn't make Bat from Gotham flinch even a tiny bit.

Difference is Martha is synonymous with the worst moment in Bruce's entire life. It's also the last word he hears his father ever utter before he dies in front of Bruce's eyes.

There have been some good criticisms of that scene over the last few pages, but sorry this isn't one of them.

 

[TeeKay]

^ All of that, plus Batman has seemingly done zero research into this guy he's been plotting to kill for 18 months. If this conflict doesn't fall under the textbook definition of "contrived", I don't know what would.

He lacked awareness.

 

[jmc]

^ All of that, plus Batman has seemingly done zero research into this guy he's been plotting to kill for 18 months. If this conflict doesn't fall under the textbook definition of "contrived", I don't know what would.

That's the issue with the movie, in order for the story to even remotely work you have to strip away the best qualities of both characters. Is it any wonder people ended up hating this movie when both characters are shadows of who they are and what they stand for?

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Difference is Martha is synonymous with the worst moment in Bruce's entire life. It's also the last word he hears his father ever utter before he dies in front of Bruce's eyes.

There have been some good criticisms of that scene over the last few pages, but sorry this isn't one of them.

Oh yeah?
You know what I'd like to see? This version of Bruce Wayne reaction to hearing the name Martha every time since discovering the cave of bats all the way until the battle with Zod.

Employee: "Hey Mr. Wayne, today is my wife's birthday, she's a big fan of yours, I hope you don't mind giving her the pleasure of a visit."
Bruce: "That's nice. What's her name?"
Employee: "Martha"
Bruce's expression changes and his face turns red: "Ma..ma"
Employee: "Hello, Mr. Wayne?"

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Yes to both these points. Lex was nearly as well-explained or developed as he could have been, but it's, well, "stupid" to call stuff like that stupid when it fits exactly with how he operates as a character.

Same with Superman using the spear. It may seem "stupid" to us, but it makes sense with his character. Superman isn't the guy to go "Hey, this could hurt me so how about YOU risk your life stabbing the monster". It doesn't matter that he could die, all that matters is that he can save everyone else, he doesn't stop to think of himself, that's what makes him Superman.

Yeeaahhh... But with a little bit of logic, he could have reasoned that "Hey, if I dies the entire human race may be screwed next weekend when the next threat comes up."

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Oh yeah?
You know what I'd like to see? This version of Bruce Wayne reaction to hearing the name Martha every time since discovering the cave of bats all the way until the battle with Zod.

Employee: "Hey Mr. Wayne, today is my wife's birthday, she's a big fan of yours, I hope you don't mind giving her the pleasure of a visit."
Bruce: "That's nice. What's her name?"
Employee: "Martha"
Bruce's expression changes and his face turns red: "Ma..ma"
Employee: "Hello, Mr. Wayne?"

This, this is funny.

 

[Iceman]

If Supes' mom had been named Phyllis, Bats would have curb stomped that Kryptonian ****e.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If Supes' mom had been named Phyllis, Bats would have curb stomped that Kryptonian ****e.

I want Kryptonite boots so bad right now.

 

[Mjölnir]

Marvel have been doing the formula and bad villain thing for longer though. It's their movies only serious flaws so it's frustrating that they still do it. 15 movies in things like this should be improving. Thankfully they tend to knock the rest out of the park.

They are legitimate criticisms as well, Kaelicius was a genuine stock Marvel villain all the way.

That's definitely not true for the villains. DC has been delivering some really bad villains way before Marvel even thought about making a movie of their own.

As for legitimate criticisms, that goes for the fan criticism that you responded to as well. The things they were talking about have happened.

 

[DA_Champion]

I refer to my mother by her name sometimes when I'm discussing her in the third person. It's normal. For example if I go to the pharmacy on her behalf I won't tell them that "i need my mother's prescription", I'll use her name.

Same with the BvS scene, Clark has given up on his life but he wants Batman to save his mom so he says "save Martha Kent", though he's cut off at Kent.

There are countless problems with BvS and that is not among them.

 

[Greens]

I want Kryptonite boots so bad right now.

I reckon they'd be butt ugly.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I want Kryptonite boots so bad right now.

Don't use post crisis version kryptonite, it will poison you.

I wonder if Kryptonite is heavy.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Oh yeah?
You know what I'd like to see? This version of Bruce Wayne reaction to hearing the name Martha every time since discovering the cave of bats all the way until the battle with Zod.

Employee: "Hey Mr. Wayne, today is my wife's birthday, she's a big fan of yours, I hope you don't mind giving her the pleasure of a visit."
Bruce: "That's nice. What's her name?"
Employee: "Martha"
Bruce's expression changes and his face turns red: "Ma..ma"
Employee: "Hello, Mr. Wayne?"

t: though my comments weren't meant in a personal way just FYI.

That's definitely not true for the villains. DC has been delivering some really bad villains way before Marvel even thought about making a movie of their own.

As for legitimate criticisms, that goes for the fan criticism that you responded to as well. The things they were talking about have happened.

Was talking more since 1998. DC have done less poor villains since then IMO.

I refer to my mother by her name sometimes when I'm discussing her in the third person. It's normal. For example if I go to the pharmacy on her behalf I won't tell them that "i need my mother's prescription", I'll use her name.

Same with the BvS scene, Clark has given up on his life but he wants Batman to save his mom so he says "save Martha Kent", though he's cut off at Kent.

There are countless problems with BvS and that is not among them.

Agreed.

 

[Mjölnir]

Was talking more since 1998. DC have done less poor villains since then IMO.

That was not possible to discern from your comment, but sure. Feels a bit arbitrary of a cutoff, and I don't think I agree that they've done less poor villains either.

The point wasn't really that in itself though but around the argument about whether you should mention the others that have done what you criticize or not. To me it just doesn't make much sense if someone tends to talk about Marvel's villains in that regard without mentioning other franchises, but object to someone talking about bad stuff from one fanbase and not from others, or vice versa. It just seems like exactly the same thing with different topics.

 

[DA_Champion]

That was not possible to discern from your comment, but sure. Feels a bit arbitrary of a cutoff, and I don't think I agree that they've done less poor villains either.

The point wasn't really that in itself though but around the argument about whether you should mention the others that have done what you criticize or not. To me it just doesn't make much sense if someone tends to talk about Marvel's villains in that regard without mentioning other franchises, but object to someone talking about bad stuff from one fanbase and not from others, or vice versa. It just seems like exactly the same thing with different topics.

People bring up villains in the case of Marvel because it may be the single most significant failure in that franchise. The heroes don't overcome difficult obstacles.

Lex, in contrast, is indeed awful, but is merely one part of a general conversation on awfulness.

 

[The Batman]

I hope WW is as good/iconic as Superman: The Movie, Batman '89, or Spider-Man 1.

Say what you want about those three films, but they all left a memorable first impression.