Cinematic Civil War:MCU vs DCCU - Part 10

[Kane52630]

I hope WW is as good/iconic as Superman: The Movie, Batman '89, or Spider-Man 1.

 

[The Batman]

Lmao

...You're right.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

That was not possible to discern from your comment, but sure. Feels a bit arbitrary of a cutoff, and I don't think I agree that they've done less poor villains either.

The point wasn't really that in itself though but around the argument about whether you should mention the others that have done what you criticize or not. To me it just doesn't make much sense if someone tends to talk about Marvel's villains in that regard without mentioning other franchises, but object to someone talking about bad stuff from one fanbase and not from others, or vice versa. It just seems like exactly the same thing with different topics.

That wasn't the original point though, the original point was peoplecriticising DCEU fans for being overly defensive. I pointed out that I have experienced the same from MCU fans who get very defensive when you criticise stuff like the villains and humour in the MCU. Which I have experienced. I don't see how one 'side' can criticise the other when both do it. That was my point.

As for the villains, I thought Lex was awful and Enchantress wasn't much better, you won't see me defending them. It doesn't make Kaecilius a good villain either though. He was pretty poor, and it was a waste of Mads Mikkelson who could have been used for a better character at a later point. Kaecilius himself doesn't bother me that much. But wasting a great actor in the role does.

People bring up villains in the case of Marvel because it may be the single most significant failure in that franchise. The heroes don't overcome difficult obstacles.

Lex, in contrast, is indeed awful, but is merely one part of a general conversation on awfulness.

Totally agree with the bolded.

 

[Mjölnir]

That wasn't the original point though, the original point was peoplecriticising DCEU fans for being overly defensive. I pointed out that I have experienced the same from MCU fans who get very defensive when you criticise stuff like the villains and humour in the MCU. Which I have experienced. I don't see how one 'side' can criticise the other when both do it. That was my point.

As for the villains, I thought Lex was awful and Enchantress wasn't much better, you won't see me defending them. It doesn't make Kaecilius a good villain either though. He was pretty poor, and it was a waste of Mads Mikkelson who could have been used for a better character at a later point. Kaecilius himself doesn't bother me that much. But wasting a great actor in the role does.

I wrote about the same, just in a roundabout way.

And it's the same thing. Some people criticized DCEU fans for being defensive and you came along and said that it was unfair because they aren't alone in being defensive.

In another recent discussion you have complained that the MCU often have weak villains and others came along and said that it's unfair because so does the others.

Clearly both discussions had people feel that the criticism was presented in a way that made it sound like it was unique for the target of the criticism. The point I made was that either one should be fine with someone criticizing something without having to specify that it's not alone in having that flaw, or one should always include the context of others failing on the same issue.

So it's obviously not at all about the opinion in itself, and people explaining why the villain criticism exists are missing the point.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

People bring up villains in the case of Marvel because it may be the single most significant failure in that franchise. The heroes don't overcome difficult obstacles.

I think that is an unfair view of challenges they face:

• Hulk had to face a villain stronger than him while needing to save his girlfriend and others from a burning helicopter.
• Tony had to face an army of flaming people, outed from his house, away from his company and achievements, having PTSD after nearly dying from saving the city from a nuke that was meant to kill alien invasion, his girlfriend abducted and experimented on, one of his best friends hospitalized.
• Steve was a fugitive once, and a second time he had to fight his friends to save his childhood friend.
• The Guardians of the Galaxy had to save a planet from being destroyed, and survive a deadly jewel.

 

[Consona]

Kaecilius himself doesn't bother me that much.

What bothered me about him was they gave him absolutely great premise just to let him run, jump and throw force javelins for the rest of the film.

This really upset me. He had so much potential...

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I wrote about the same, just in a roundabout way.

And it's the same thing. Some people criticized DCEU fans for being defensive and you came along and said that it was unfair because they aren't alone in being defensive.

In another recent discussion you have complained that the MCU often have weak villains and others came along and said that it's unfair because so does the others.

Clearly both discussions had people feel that the criticism was presented in a way that made it sound like it was unique for the target of the criticism. The point I made was that either one should be fine with someone criticizing something without having to specify that it's not alone in having that flaw, or one should always include the context of others failing on the same issue.

So it's obviously not at all about the opinion in itself, and people explaining why the villain criticism exists are missing the point.

Difference was though I wasn't criticising people for, making that point about other companies doing poor villains, I simply argued against it, but in a debating manner.

People were criticising others for getting overly defensive with the DCEU, while pretty saying their opinions on the movie were wrong. When I have seen and experienced MCU fans the exact same thing. It was hypocritical in my eyes.

I criticise aspects of the MCU I'll admit, but I also praise a lot of it as well. Certain fans have no issue when I praise though, only when I criticise. Both should be allowed and from all fandom as well. Thats my take on it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

What bothered me about him was they gave him absolutely great premise just to let him run, jump and throw force javelins for the rest of the film.

This really upset me. He had so much potential...

I think if they hadn't wasted the actor he wouldn't have bothered me as much as a villain .

Mikkelson could have been saved for a much better role down the line.

 

[Mjölnir]

Difference was though I wasn't criticising people for, making that point about other companies doing poor villains, I simply argued against it, but in a debating manner.

People were criticising others for getting overly defensive with the DCEU, while pretty saying their opinions on the movie were wrong. When I have seen and experienced MCU fans the exact same thing. It was hypocritical in my eyes.

I criticise aspects of the MCU I'll admit, but I also praise a lot of it as well. Certain fans have no issue when I praise though, only when I criticise. Both should be allowed and from all fandom as well. Thats my take on it.

And people have done the same in the discussion I was referring to about villains, they didn't attack the persons that came with the criticism. As someone that was outside both those discussions I think they are exactly the same and the only hypocrisy is treating the subjects differently. What you claimed to be hypocrisy I can't agree with since I didn't see anyone say that only DCEU fans have ever done that.

I don't care if an individual criticizes or defends either Marvel villains or fans that respond in the manner as was discussed, I'm only focusing on people reacting differently to the exact same kind of argument depending on what it's about.

But that's all I'll say about this meta discussion as to not derail the thread too much. I think my point is clear now, which was the reason I continued to talk about it.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

And people have done the same in the discussion I was referring to about villains, they didn't attack the persons that came with the criticism. As someone that was outside both those discussions I think they are exactly the same and the only hypocrisy is treating the subjects differently. What you claimed to be hypocrisy I can't agree with since I didn't see anyone say that only DCEU fans have ever done that.

I don't care if an individual criticizes or defends either Marvel villains or fans that respond in the manner as was discussed, I'm only focusing on people reacting differently to the exact same kind of argument depending on what it's about.

But that's all I'll say about this meta discussion as to not derail the thread too much. I think my point is clear now, which was the reason I continued to talk about it.

Personally I don't think it's the same argument at all, I think they are 2 different ones. And if you are saying I am hypocritical in my point, I could just as easily say the same about yours.

But let's just agree to disagree and move on as this isn't going anywhere.

 

[DrCosmic]

Squandering potential. That's it. Marvel squanders the potential of its villains. It pulls some of the greatest villains ever put to paper, casts phenomenal actors in the roles and then has them, essentially, shuffle around making noise ineffectually for 15 minutes. Each usually gets a moment of brilliance where we see their potential begin to bear out that is swiftly swept away for a mindless forgetable endgame.

The problem I have, and the reason I think Marvel's films get significantly more commercial and critical response is that the DCEU also squanders its heroes. To take a character that's 75 years old and create a film with a divisive response is a mite ridiculous. This is to say nothing of all the other host of characters in their stable like Green Lantern, Aquaman and Flash with more good stories than you can ever hope to read in one sitting. Heck, even a character like Robin is 70+ and has had some groundbreaking stuff behind him too. The way I feel about Ultron is the way I feel about Superman. The way I feel about Malekith is the way I feel about Robin. The way I feel about Ronan is the way I feel about Deadshot.

This is to say nothing of the fact that the DCEU also has a villain problem. Their villains are actually threatening and grand, but they aren't always interesting or memorable, which can't be said for any but the very lamest (Malekith) of MCU villains. Zod wasn't quite iconic, Lex Luthor was incomprehensible, as was Enchantress and her super slick dance moves and NuJoker with his gangstalicousness. Doomsday was appropriately one note, but Batman as a foe was utterly forgetable. The Flash vs Arrow fight on the CW was more engaging and well thought out that the Batman vs Superman one made for much more money and with much more time to plan.

 

[T"Challa]

Squandering potential. That's it. Marvel squanders the potential of its villains. It pulls some of the greatest villains ever put to paper, casts phenomenal actors in the roles and then has them, essentially, shuffle around making noise ineffectually for 15 minutes. Each usually gets a moment of brilliance where we see their potential begin to bear out that is swiftly swept away for a mindless forgetable endgame.

The problem I have, and the reason I think Marvel's films get significantly more commercial and critical response is that the DCEU also squanders its heroes. To take a character that's 75 years old and create a film with a divisive response is a mite ridiculous. This is to say nothing of all the other host of characters in their stable like Green Lantern, Aquaman and Flash with more good stories than you can ever hope to read in one sitting. Heck, even a character like Robin is 70+ and has had some groundbreaking stuff behind him too. The way I feel about Ultron is the way I feel about Superman. The way I feel about Malekith is the way I feel about Robin. The way I feel about Ronan is the way I feel about Deadshot.

This is to say nothing of the fact that the DCEU also has a villain problem. Their villains are actually threatening and grand, but they aren't always interesting or memorable, which can't be said for any but the very lamest (Malekith) of MCU villains. Zod wasn't quite iconic, Lex Luthor was incomprehensible, as was Enchantress and her super slick dance moves and NuJoker with his gangstalicousness. Doomsday was appropriately one note, but Batman as a foe was utterly forgetable. The Flash vs Arrow fight on the CW was more engaging and well thought out that the Batman vs Superman one made for much more money and with much more time to plan.

Nailed it.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

 

[TeeKay]

Squandering potential. That's it. Marvel squanders the potential of its villains. It pulls some of the greatest villains ever put to paper, casts phenomenal actors in the roles and then has them, essentially, shuffle around making noise ineffectually for 15 minutes. Each usually gets a moment of brilliance where we see their potential begin to bear out that is swiftly swept away for a mindless forgetable endgame.

The problem I have, and the reason I think Marvel's films get significantly more commercial and critical response is that the DCEU also squanders its heroes. To take a character that's 75 years old and create a film with a divisive response is a mite ridiculous. This is to say nothing of all the other host of characters in their stable like Green Lantern, Aquaman and Flash with more good stories than you can ever hope to read in one sitting. Heck, even a character like Robin is 70+ and has had some groundbreaking stuff behind him too. The way I feel about Ultron is the way I feel about Superman. The way I feel about Malekith is the way I feel about Robin. The way I feel about Ronan is the way I feel about Deadshot.

This is to say nothing of the fact that the DCEU also has a villain problem. Their villains are actually threatening and grand, but they aren't always interesting or memorable, which can't be said for any but the very lamest (Malekith) of MCU villains. Zod wasn't quite iconic, Lex Luthor was incomprehensible, as was Enchantress and her super slick dance moves and NuJoker with his gangstalicousness. Doomsday was appropriately one note, but Batman as a foe was utterly forgetable. The Flash vs Arrow fight on the CW was more engaging and well thought out that the Batman vs Superman one made for much more money and with much more time to plan.

 

[AlluAllu]

New Wonder Woman trailer dropped. I don't know why, but I feel less hyped now than I was before.

 

[TeeKay]

I thought it was sick. Only two minor problems. The CGI towards the end reminded me of BvS and Gal sounds wooden.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

That last scene was cringey. It doesnt look bad at all but I still feel very meh about it

 

[DA_Champion]

It's hard to play the strong woman card. Some people will cringe and some will fist pump. But it's wonder woman so it's a necessary card lol.

One issue with the world war one setting is that the great war was not a battle between good and evil, it was a battle between evil and evil. In the movie they might just pretend otherwise.

 

[All-Father]

That last scene was cringey. It doesnt look bad at all but I still feel very meh about it

That's how I feel about it. I'll probably skip it...

 

[Consona]

That last scene was cringey. It doesnt look bad at all but I still feel very meh about it

What? The scene with Lucy Davis?

 

[Flint Marko]

I thought it was sick. Only two minor problems. The CGI towards the end reminded me of BvS and Gal sounds wooden.

These are the exact things I took note of, but they have quite a while to touch up the CGI so I'm not worried on that front. Gal's acting looks like it could actually be a problem though. Still, I have high hopes that this will be the best DCEU film to date.

 

[NotSoLongAgo]

What? The scene with Lucy Davis?

If thats the lady in the dress scene then yeah

 

[Iceman]

Gal looks the part and has come a long way from her regular look before she was cast. I haven't seen anything yet to show that she can lead a film where a high level of acting skill is required so hopefully either I'll see it here or the film won't require it. Either way I very much hope it works out as WW is one of most anticipated upcoming solo CBMs.

 

[Consona]

That's how I feel about it. I'll probably skip it...

Yet, according to this...

My updated list:

1.Civil War
2.Doctor Strange (very close to CW)
.
3.Deadpool
.
.
4.X-Men: Apocalypse
.
.
.
.
.
.
*BvS
*SS

* These last two, I can't decide which one is the worst. So, they aren't in a particular order.

... you've loved that shallow Doctor Strange film with such a boring script and overabundance of jumping and running around for the sake of itself... *Does not compute*

 

[Greens]

Tactful.