"Cinematic Pedigree": Can FF2 Overcome The Cons?

[Lightning Strykez!]

Can The Sequel Overcome The Cons?​

An Essay By Lightning Strikez!​

June 2007 will mark the return of Marvel's first family to the silver screen. Although there is considerable excitement for the film (not to mention the highly anticipated theatric debut of the Silver Surfer), one would be naive to ignore the doubt and worry that lingers among the fans' ranks.

The first film, 2005's Fantastic Four made quite a chunk of money--enough to warrant a sequel obviously. However, some claim its success was due to savvy marketing schemes and mainstream audiences' not really knowing what to expect from this less-known quartet of heroes. Judging by critical receipts and overall sentiments from fandoms, the response to the summer blockbuster was overall mixed. Some of that is due to people not really understanding what the FF are all about in the first place (referencing the comic's source material), and the rest is because of...well, the film was very imperfect.

The question is: Can the sequel truly overcome the cons that are stacked against it? Consider some of the obstacles that lay in its path...

*****​

1.) General Reputation: For the most part, the first FF film is considered to be among the weakest in the Marvel film pantheon. Constant comparisons to other other FOX bombs i.e. Daredevil and Elektra (and even counter-comparisons to mega-successes like The Incredibles) does not bode well for next summer's release. Residual word-of-mouth for a film can either hurt or help its sequel.

Remembering their overall reception of the first film, mainstream audiences may be leery about shelling out bucketloads of money again for this franchise--especially in an era where the DVD's value is at its highest.

2.) Timing: Once again, the production shooting schedule is comparitively short, much like the first project's filming stint. When one examines other "rushed" recent releases like X3, he/she has to wonder if FF2 will really bring in more of the same--not due to lack of creativity or quality control--but simply because the studio may run out of time to polish things up again.

3.) Characterization: The spot-on brilliance of Johnny and Ben notwithstanding, the character development in 2005's movie was severely lacking. The cardboard quality of Susan, the understated intelligence of Reed and the sheer goofiness of Dr. Doom ("Marcooo.....Polo?") have not resonated well even with the fanbase. The saddest thing is that the actors had so much potential, but it was all wasted.

All three characters are set to return, but with actors receiving the script so late during shooting, can we really expect improved acting ability this time around?

4.) The "Wack" Factor: The hackneyed script from the first film did contain some gems worthy of praise and genuine humored laughter. But there was a considerable amount of "insult-your-intelligence" stupidity too. For example, why the hell would Ben's fiancee Debbie come running out into public at night wearing lingerie of all things? Eye-rolling moments like that really hurt the first film.

5.) Oversexed Fluff: Jessica Alba is gorgeous. We get it. But will we constantly be beat over the head with it again? Will her character be allowed to mature by losing the whiney voice and overly sexed Tara Reid-treatment? Susan Storm needs to be taken seriously and the actress has the capability to bring it. The question is: Will the studio, costume designers, writers and directors see the value of pushing their marquee star in a different direction beyond sex appeal?

5.) The "Wack" Job: Lately, editing seems to have become the achilles heel for FOX's recent CBM releases. FF1 probably featured the worst splicing ever, with abrupt scenes (like Susan suddenly stripping on the Brooklyn Bridge with no explanation why) ruining the continuity and flow of the film. Many fans complain that character development is not as important to FOX as making a quick buck. Since Fantastic Four: Rise Of The Silver Surfer is also due out in the summer, some are concerned that this "cram-as-many-showings-in-an-hour-as-possible concept will rear its ugly head again.

*****​

Of course, there are many pros going for this film--some of which actually outweigh the negatives. But to turn a blind eye to the glaring problems from the first film would be naivete at its zenith. This franchise has a reputation--and it's not the greatest. Therefore, 20th Century Fox may have an uphill battle ahead of them: overcoming any production's greatest enemy: the existing franchise's pedigree.

Questions For Discussion:​

1.) From what you've heard/read online, do you believe Tim Story & Co. (including the studio) are interested in only A.) making $$$ again--quality be damned, B.) rectifying the first film's wrongs and making a quality film, or C.) a combination of A and B?

2.) Have you noted any pros (positive things) for the sequel that could offset the cons?

3.) Name what you think is the biggest obstacle laying in FF2's path, and the solution to overcoming it.



.​

 

[Stringer]

Good read as always, Lightning. As for your questions Id say C to the first one, to the second question; honestly I havent really seen much to give me a clear answer I need to see more, and the the third question....well Ill have to think on that a little more, but one thing they really need to cut down on is the cheese factor.

 

[Fantastic-Boy]

The answers of:
1) I preffer watch a teaser of the characters and trailer.
2) More money to work.
3) The doubt:How good will be the second movie? Worst or better than the first? But how know what is the best for the film? Follow the classic aspect or renew?It's all a immense Doubt...


Bye!

 

[Carp Man]

Nice Lightning.

1.) From what you've heard/read online, do you believe Tim Story & Co. (including the studio) are interested in only A.) making $$$ again--quality be damned, B.) rectifying the first film's wrongs and making a quality film, or C.) a combination of A and B? B. And part of A. Of course to make money.

2.) Have you noted any pros (positive things) for the sequel that could offset the cons? The Thing suit is better. Bit more brow,smaller hands, more orange, more pronounced rocks on the suit. Allthough it still looks like a rubber suit, but not to the degree of the 1st film. This one will be upbeat, faster paced, more action, which was sorly lacking in the 1st one for me.

3.) Name what you think is the biggest obstacle laying in FF2's path, and the solution to overcoming it. Same as 1st film, editing. I fear the editors down at Fox, who took away so much of the 1st film. With Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, and Galctus, this movie needs at least 2 hours. Mabey 2 and a half. I hope Fox took note of POTC 2, if you make a good, entertaining movie, people will sit thru 2 and a half hours, and come back time and again for more.

 

[TripleF]

(1)I just want a film I can enjoy! Not necessarily looking for it to right every wrong. #1 question also shows a bias in how its written, which pretty much shows that biases will be here, positive or negative improvements.

(2)
#1, as with most forums like this, the people that liked the first one, will like the second.

#2, the people that loved the first one, will love the second. AND EVEN IF THEY DON'T THEY WILL NEVER EAT CROW AND SAY THEY HATED IT, FROM ALL THE "IT'S GONNA ROCK" POSTS THEY'VE MADE.

#3, the people that disliked the first one, may have a chance at some enjoyment of the second.

#4, the people that hated the first one, will hate the second. AND EVEN IF THEY DON'T THEY WILL NEVER EAT CROW AND SAY THE LIKED OR LOVED IT, FROM ALL THE "IT'S GONNA SUCK" POSTS THEY'VE MADE.

So whether it rights, the wrongs. OR it doesn't. Won't matter. IMO

POSITIVES: Pretty much all I've seen lately has been fairly positive, whether I thought it was or not. ie The Thing suit. Doesn't look any different to me, but most seem to think that it is a vast improvement, so I say yiipee.

It seems that Fox has made some very specific, intricate, major changes to the people involved in the film. ie

1). Writing
2). Art
3). Special Effects
4). Visual Effects
5). Production Design
6). Cinematography
7). Make-up Department
8). Production Management
9). Sound Department
10). Stunts


(3)NEGATIVES:
1). It will never overcome the critics, no matter what. Critics once they have slammed (and I mean SLAMMED) a movie franchise, they may say, SOME IMPROVEMENT. But they will never give it the credit it truly deserves, if it indeed deserves the credit.

2). As I stated above, SOME people's minds have already been made. So much so, that when they walk in they will have such thick blinders, they will never see past their personal problems with the first. As far as those the other direction, well thats not a negative I guess.

In closing I will say this. "Word of Mouth" is purely internet, IMO. The internet fanboy is not the majority that have their fannies in the seats. "For the most part..." again IMO, shows a bias in the making of the thread. I could say the opposite if I went by the IMDB (written responses to the movie) or Amazon's (written responses to the movie and DVD). In both cases the positive response is more than 2 to 1 over the negative. Critics didn't like it, CORRECT. Fanboys didn't like it, FOR THE MOST PART, CORRECT. But I have yet to see a poll that can directly quantify, verify, or even come near giving us a clear picture of the TRUE thoughts of this movie, nor will we ever have that. SO I SAY, go see the movie, make your own opinion. Take your enjoyment, or non-enjoyment from that.

 

[highguard]

Questions For Discussion:​

1.) From what you've heard/read online, do you believe Tim Story & Co. (including the studio) are interested in only A.) making $$$ again--quality be damned, B.) rectifying the first film's wrongs and making a quality film, or C.) a combination of A and B?

2.) Have you noted any pros (positive things) for the sequel that could offset the cons?

3.) Name what you think is the biggest obstacle laying in FF2's path, and the solution to overcoming it.
.​

1.) From what you've heard/read online, do you believe Tim Story & Co. (including the studio) are interested in only A.) making $$$ again--quality be damned, B.) rectifying the first film's wrongs and making a quality film, or C.) a combination of A and B?

My answer is C, a combination. Story is obviously having a greater influence. It was Tim Story that had to lobby for the silver surfer story, as opposed to Arad's preference for puppet master. So Tim obviously wants to move it into a more epic vein.


2.) Have you noted any pros (positive things) for the sequel that could offset the cons?

We have also had the better Thing costume, new Doom and and Tim obviously is fighting for other good stuff for the fans like the fantasticar.

The studio however is always going to be looking at the bottom line which is the money. However they must recognize that FF did astoundingly given the unprecedented savaging by the critics and some fans. They may be thinking that the vaults may open for them if they just make any effort at improvement. Remember Rothman wants Surfer to be another cash cow. So they have brought in Weta and changed the editor and the music score is going to be even better with ottman getting to improve on his original fan approved score.

3.) Name what you think is the biggest obstacle laying in FF2's path, and the solution to overcoming it.

The FF's biggest problem is pleasing the fans. Ultimately I really think that the general public out there is going to support the FF. Fans here just refuse to acknowlege that the general public loved the movie for what it was.

The critics also have to be won over and I have to say that it can't get any worse than it was last time. I think that you will find some joining the bandwagon and there to be some moderate improvement in their comments next time but not much. So in answering your question lightning I have to say that your question suggests what we have already surmised, that we fans can't get over the fact (my opinion of course) that our opinions are not as important as we might hope. The movie is not going to me made just for us or the critics. It may be that the majority (the public) has already voted and as such it will do ok or better than last time. Hey what did the DVD end up doing, that performance may give us an idea of how the fans felt about the movie.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

In closing I will say this. "Word of Mouth" is purely internet, IMO.

Actually, WOM exists in various mediums--internet is only one of them.

"For the most part..." again IMO, shows a bias in the making of the thread.

Of course my thead is "biased." It's an essay--which is clearly stamped at the top. You sound as if that's some sort of distasteful thing.

 

[Carp Man]

Did some digging. Fantastic Four did 39 million in DVD rentals. Have not found sales yet. Still digging.

 

[MattC]

Edit

 

[Excel]

no, it cannot.

as long as storys directring and rothmans running fox, well never see the big, grand epic we want.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

no, it cannot.

as long as storys directring and rothmans running fox, well never see the big, grand epic we want.

Can I get a more detailed response please? Like...one directed to the questions I posed? I know you're capable of giving me more than that Excel.

 

[highguard]

Did some digging. Fantastic Four did 39 million in DVD rentals. Have not found sales yet. Still digging.

That seems like a good number, for rentals at least, does it compare favorably with other CBMs.

 

[antariksh]

AMAZING TOTALLY BRILLIANT POST first time by Lightning strikz.

MY answers are the same as Carp Man and High guard.

 

[TripleF]

Actually, WOM exists in various mediums--internet is only one of them.





Of course my thead is "biased." It's an essay--which is clearly stamped at the top. You sound as if that's some sort of distasteful thing.

I will say that yes, there is WOM, in other areas, but to the extent that you wrote of in your essay, is IMO predominantly an internet phenomenon.

I don't sound like anything, this is a message board, therefore the only true emotion in my writing is what you yourself puts there while reading it.

Mine, just as yours, is just an opinion. Nothing more.

I'm disappointed in myself as a poster. I wrote all of that and those two things were the only items you chose to reply to. I'm kinda saddened by that.

 

[TripleF]

no, it cannot.

as long as storys directring and rothmans running fox, well never see the big, grand epic we want.

As per my post. Could not have had a more perfect example.

 

[gambitfire]

Lighting has alot of good points.

Too be honest i'm still worried.

The only thing i see major improvement on is visual quality.

We here Weta is doing SS, yes that's great and Thing looks better ok that's fine, but the effects where not a major reason for complaint in FF1 to begin with, and while we all felt Thing was missing the eyebrow, that was not the reason the General audience disliked the movie.

So like i said i see improvements in departments that did not drastically need it as others.

I have faith in the cast, my doubts are only on Alba, i'm a fan of hers and love her as an actress but yes im afraid (ESPECIALLY KNOWING FOX AND HOW THEY USED HUGH AND HALLY) that FOX will ride the Sexy train with Alba for the sake of the movie, at that point we lose alot from what may be one of the greatest stories ever told.

 

[haephestus]

Very interesting read. Not a hardcore FF fan, but have been following the progress of the sequel out of interest.

1. From what you've heard/read online, do you believe Tim Story & Co. (including the studio) are interested in only (A) making $$$ again--quality be damned, (B) rectifying the first film's wrongs and making a quality film, or (C) a combination of A and B?

Have to go with (C). They appear very keen to ensure FF2 enables them to establish a "Silver Surfer" franchise of films. While this bodes well for the quality of certain aspects of the film, particularly the "look" of the Silver Surfer and scenes involving the Silver Surfer, I'm not sure whether that same dedication to quality will be made to the Fantastic Four, Dr Doom and Alicia.

2. Have you noted any pros (positive things) for the sequel that could offset the cons?

Apart from a few comments from Tim Story, particularly in respect of Dr Doom (and a few set pics of what appears to be the interior of Dr Doom's castle), then no. I guess the inclusion of the Silver Surfer (and hence possible set up for Galactus storyline) could be seen as a "pro", but I'm not a huge Silver Surfer fan and am wary of how well they can do Galactus on the big screen (though I do think it is possible).

3. Name what you think is the biggest obstacle laying in FF2's path, and the solution to overcoming it.

I *personally* think the biggest obstacle is the number of characters. Considering the last film had five major characters (six if you include Alicia, but her scenes were minimal) and the fact they had serious trouble establishing three of those five characters (Reed, Sue and Doom) and still had problems establishing the other two (particularly the Thing's comment at the end of the film with respect to "being okay" with the way he now looks and telling Reed not to worry about finding a "cure"), then I'm concerned about the introduction of the Silver Surfer, the Army General, Frankie (aka Nova), the re-introduction (hopefully) of Alicia Masters and anyone else they intend to add or focus on in the film (though I would guess the General, Frankie and Alicia will receive minimal screen time).

I guess I would have preferred to see the sequel concentrate on getting Reed, Sue and Doom "right" before they introduced other characters, especially one as important and complicated as the Silver Surfer (though I do believe the introduction of the Surfer could serve the characterisation of Reed, Sue and Doom as well, for instance if Doom steals the Surfer's powers).

I guess the only "solution" would be to be aware of the multitude of characters and no edit all the characterisation out of the film in the interests of a shorter running time to keep the the "short attention span" audience interested. I'm aware that there were additional Dr Doom and Alicia characterisation scenes for the first film (though they were not included as deleted scenes on the Region 4 release of the DVD), so the script writer's may well intend to develop each of the characters, but the characterisation needs to be placed ahead of running time concerns.

Cheers.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Since things are being kept pretty well under wraps, I don't know that we can talk too specifically (other than that the Thing suit seems improved and the wedding scene looks pretty cool and there seem to be some talented folks attached to the film), so my comments will be very general.

1.) From what you've heard/read online, do you believe Tim Story & Co. (including the studio) are interested in only A.) making $$$ again--quality be damned, B.) rectifying the first film's wrongs and making a quality film, or C.) a combination of A and B?

I think that if they could make money with absolutely no quality they would do exactly that (and frankly, if I was a stockholder, that's what I'd want them to do . . . if I invest, I want a return on my investment . . . how I get there doesn't really matter as long as the return is there)

. . . BUT nobody can continue to make money selling a low quality product, so, fortunately for us, I think they will strive to make a good movie. . . within the limits of time and budget.

Of course, complicating the discussion: Is "quality" defined by what the critics think or what the general film-goers think? By the former, the first film was terrible, by the latter, it was mediocre. By either definition there is plenty of room for improvement and I think they will at least try.


2.) Have you noted any pros (positive things) for the sequel that could offset the cons?

The next film has the potential to be much more exciting. A big problem with the first film is that it was a small, personal story about the characters. Unless you cared about the characters, there was little to draw you into the story.

In this film, the fate of the world hangs in the balance. Could the stakes be any higher?

With a larger budget, new screenwriter, exposition out of the way, design work partially done, this film has the potential to succeed in some areas the first failed.

They may look much more like the fantastic four in this film as opposed to a bunch of neurotic people thrown together by circumstances.


3.) Name what you think is the biggest obstacle laying in FF2's path, and the solution to overcoming it.

Money. The first film just wasn't spectacular enough to do justice to these characters.

Hopefully the fact the first film had modest success combined with what Fox has seen with X-Men (increasing Box office with increasing budgets and scale) will encourage them to invest to give this film the budget it needs.

One big factor in our favor is that this isn't a stand-alone film, but a film that could set up future FF films and Silver surfer films. This movie could, theoretically, lose money and still make money for Fox in the long run if it properly sets up both franchises.

 

[highguard]

that was not the reason the General audience disliked the movie.

This is the thing, from all indications, the general audience did like the movie, I can't find the dvd sales which I think is a good barometer of the general publics affection for a theatrical release but the first day figures for FF sold about 2.4 million units its first day which according to the story was 50% of what Batman did its entire first week.

Guess on that front it looks good.

Source:
http://www.comics2film.com/BB2/viewtopic.php?t=4640&sid=821617860e70faa1021bfa26e46e9173

 

[TripleF]

This is the thing, from all indications, the general audience did like the movie, I can't find the dvd sales which I think is a good barometer of the general publics affection for a theatrical release but the first day figures for FF sold about 2.4 million units its first day which according to the story was 50% of what Batman did its entire first week.

Guess on that front it looks good.

Source:
http://www.comics2film.com/BB2/viewtopic.php?t=4640&sid=821617860e70faa1021bfa26e46e9173

We can say for sure that the critics didn't like it.

We can say for sure that the majority of the fanboys on this site and others similar to it found much wrong with it.

We will never know exactly how the average moviegoer felt. We can look at internet poll after internet poll whether it be rottentomatoe or imdb or wherever. THAT is not the average moviegoer, no matter how much internet dwellers think that it is. The average moviegoer goes to a movie, and never talks about the movie again except around the watercooler at work, or the bar down the street, or the barbacue in the backyard, some way like that. We won't know their true thoughts on the movie. BUT the movie did very well for a virtually unknown comic, with no cartoon on regular TV for nearly 10 years. 330 million, plus good DVD sales, says something. What? don't know. But to say that mediocre is how the average moviegoer rated F4 is, in my opinion, massive speculation.

To me, the first weekend numbers will show what the average moviegoer thought of the first movie. I will go by those #'s.

Done.

 

[ClarkLuther55]

BUT the movie did very well for a virtually unknown comic

The FF aren't "virtually unknown." They're no where near Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, or even the X-Men's level, but they're not obscure no-namers either.

To me, the first weekend numbers will show what the average moviegoer thought of the first movie. I will go by those #'s.

First weekend numbers don't prove anything. How does it gauge audience reaction, when everyone pays before seeing the movie, and most people go in hearing very little word of mouth (since the movie just came out)? First weekend numbers are more a measure of the film's marketing, expectations, and the interest people had in seeing it compared to its competitors that week.

Don't people use things like the % drop in the second (and later) weekends to measure audience reaction? That's when word of mouth would kick in. I remember hearing FF's numbers weren't so hot.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

We can say for sure that the critics didn't like it.

We can say for sure that the majority of the fanboys on this site and others similar to it found much wrong with it.

We will never know exactly how the average moviegoer felt. We can look at internet poll after internet poll whether it be rottentomatoe or imdb or wherever. THAT is not the average moviegoer, no matter how much internet dwellers think that it is. The average moviegoer goes to a movie, and never talks about the movie again except around the watercooler at work, or the bar down the street, or the barbacue in the backyard, some way like that. We won't know their true thoughts on the movie. BUT the movie did very well for a virtually unknown comic, with no cartoon on regular TV for nearly 10 years. 330 million, plus good DVD sales, says something. What? don't know. But to say that mediocre is how the average moviegoer rated F4 is, in my opinion, massive speculation.

To me, the first weekend numbers will show what the average moviegoer thought of the first movie. I will go by those #'s.

Done.

Agreed.

 

[Retroman]

Questions For Discussion:​

1.) From what you've heard/read online, do you believe Tim Story & Co. (including the studio) are interested in only A.) making $$$ again--quality be damned, B.) rectifying the first film's wrongs and making a quality film, or C.) a combination of A and B?

2.) Have you noted any pros (positive things) for the sequel that could offset the cons?

3.) Name what you think is the biggest obstacle laying in FF2's path, and the solution to overcoming it..​

Nice read LS.
1.)A combination of A and B. A ($$$) because they're introducing the SS and releasing it so soon (less than 2 years) after FF1.B, they've hired Don Payne who's a big FF fan. But i'm still way of him since he's also the man behind My Super-Ex and The Simpsons.

2.)Many!
Bigger budget, WETA, the return of Ottman (continuity), return of Story (gets to redeem himself), Andre Braugher (great casting), Silver Surfer, the Fantasticar, the wedding, Latveria, new and improved Doom, improved Thing, brandnew Oscar nominated crew members (new DP, editor, production & costume designer, stunt coordinator, effects houses etc.) is a sign that we'll see something fresh and perhaps different from FF1.

3.) Biggest obstacle is convincing those who didn't like or hated the first film that the this movie will (hopefully) be light years better than the first.Easiest way to convince people is by communicating.

Tim Story has started off well by posting regular updates via his blog and asking fans for feedback. Trailers, video diaries (which we're supposed to be getting) and good word-of-mouth in the press is one way to overcome the negativity.If the final product is good then there is no need to worry.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

We can say for sure that the critics didn't like it.

We can say for sure that the majority of the fanboys on this site and others similar to it found much wrong with it.

We will never know exactly how the average moviegoer felt. We can look at internet poll after internet poll whether it be rottentomatoe or imdb or wherever. THAT is not the average moviegoer, no matter how much internet dwellers think that it is.

???

Why does the internet not count? The net is the probably the single most effective and powerful marketing tool studios have at their disposal besides television itself.

Granted, comic-book-related sites like SHH may swarm with fans of the source material, but those users simply coalesce into the broader mainstream that frequents sites like IMDb, Rottentomatoes, et al. Users there comment on all kinds of movies--not just sci-fi or CBMs. And what is the general consensus among such non-fans? That the film was mediocre to subpar and left much to be desired. Don't believe me?

Ask people around you. Ask your friends. Ask your coworkers. Gauge their reactions. As a FF zealot I have done such things, and I had to grit my teeth to hear the truth from non-comic fans. Cinematically, the first FF film was simply not the best--and I'm stacking that strictly against the quality of other films in general, not other comic book movies....

*****​

BTW, it would be wrong to underestimate the value of "fanboys" and their impact on this franchise. Why?

Because it is the fanboys who generate the buzz on these films, especially on the net. How does that impact things? Well, it is their demands for improvement that influence studios to make changes to details (i.e. the improved Thing design, and rumors of a fully-armored Doom for example). It is our websites (especially Superherohype.com) that magazines like Entertainment Weekly and Total Magazine consult to get a pulse on reaction. And it is the "fanboys" that will log in multiple viewings long past opening week, providing the film with the financial "legs" it needs to survive the arrival of other blockbusters. They are the ones that will rally a group of their non FF-fan friends to see it again. That translates to big $$$ over time.

So it's true--the mainstream appeal is extremely important, but don't sell the fanbase short on their piece of the overall pie. The studios certainly don't.

After all, we're the ones that made the comics these films are based on best-sellers in the first place.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Nice read LS.

Thanks Retro. And thank you for the pros. I've already got a "25 Things Going Right" thread in development, but it won't be released publicly until after the trailer is dropped next month. Who knows--maybe by then the list might swell to 40 or 50. t: