Civil War: How the hell is Iron man the bad guy???

Horrorfan

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Ok I got and read the full Civil War trade....and I don't get how in the blue hell any rational person could see Iron Man as the bad guy. He is completely, one hundred percent right. You expect cops to be trained and have rules to follow, why not heroes? It makes no sense....by going against the law of the land, the anti-reg heros become as bad as the bad guys. Even Cap recognised this near the end...I mean he and his gang took a massive pitch battle in a remote location to the streets of NY!

Don't get me wrong, I really understand the reluctance to do with ID and whatnot, but people have known who Stark and Rodgers, among other heroes, were and there have bbeen very few attacks on loved ones....and even then they didn't have the full support of shield to protect them like they would now.

From a moral point of view, Tony Stark and the Registration act was 100% right. It was designed to protect the innocent and stop the bad guys. Heroes make many sacrafices when they pick up the mantle, and it seemed to me that, although there were good reasons, that Cap and his gang forgot that being a hero means making sacrafices for the greater good.
 
Well, two answers

1- He's not... but he would ALWAYS have been seen as such because the fanbase will automatically side with Cap, just because... he's Cap. It sdeems the obvious thing to do. So he would always be demonised to a degree.

2- Many of the tie-ins- ESPECIALLY Frontline, New Avengers, Amazing Spider-Man and early issues of Fantastic Four, which unfortunately are all the most popular tie-ins, were HEAVILY, HEAVILY anti-reg biased. In fact, the evil raving Iron Man in many of these is not in the least consistent with the rational, heroic Iron Man of the main series.

A combination of these meant any action Iron Man took was WILDLY blown out of prportion by fans who had already made up their minds. The reality is, if you kept an open mind, read the main series and viewed those tie-ins with more scepticism, it's easy to side with Iron Man.

If you're interested, Ms Marvel, Fantastic Four 542 and the Iron Man tie-in issues are some of the best for the pro-reg cause. (FF had a change of writer at 542, a much more reasonable one took over). Surprisingly, Captain America itself is actually rather unbiased.
 
Well I'm glad to see you put a lot of thought and effort into that post. Very deep. You are an opinionated guy and I respect that.

i put about as much effort into it as you could have by doing a quick search.
 
Iron Man isn't the villian, not really. But he is as close as you get in the Civil War book.
Sure there is an actual bad guy, but Wolverine was after him in his own book. There are others, but Tony does lots of underhanded stuff and justifies them with the end goal.
He sort of tricked Peter Parker into revealing his identity, something Peter would NEVER do. He was willing to take away peoples civil rights, even by force, or kill them trying.
He He just did a lot of sneaky and underhanded stuff, including sending the Thunderbolts to kill some Atlantians. He also cloned Thor and let loose a psychopath Thor clone on the other side that killed Goliath.
He even took the victory right when Captain America surrendered. Almost like he had won it and not won by default.

But he isn't an actual bad guy, he was doing what he thought was best. Trying to make sure that not just any young punk can say he is a hero and end up causing the deaths of millions. He thought what he was doing was right and that even if people hate him, in the end lifes would be safed.
But he is still the closest thing you get to a bad guy in Civil War.
 
Iron Man isn't the villian, not really. But he is as close as you get in the Civil War book.
Sure there is an actual bad guy, but Wolverine was after him in his own book. There are others, but Tony does lots of underhanded stuff and justifies them with the end goal.
He sort of tricked Peter Parker into revealing his identity, something Peter would NEVER do. He was willing to take away peoples civil rights, even by force, or kill them trying.
He He just did a lot of sneaky and underhanded stuff, including sending the Thunderbolts to kill some Atlantians. He also cloned Thor and let loose a psychopath Thor clone on the other side that killed Goliath.
He even took the victory right when Captain America surrendered. Almost like he had won it and not won by default.

But he isn't an actual bad guy, he was doing what he thought was best. Trying to make sure that not just any young punk can say he is a hero and end up causing the deaths of millions. He thought what he was doing was right and that even if people hate him, in the end lifes would be safed.
But he is still the closest thing you get to a bad guy in Civil War.


How so?

Would you be ok with Police officers acting like they are above the law? Or not having badges, just guns? Really?
 
I'd be ok with the SHRA if it didn't require heroes to give up their secret identities and if it didn't have that hidden clause where you basically get drafted into a superhero army once you register. It's not like the SHRA is about training heroes and then letting them back out to live their lives. It's about control.
 
I'd be ok with the SHRA if it didn't require heroes to give up their secret identities and if it didn't have that hidden clause where you basically get drafted into a superhero army once you register. It's not like the SHRA is about training heroes and then letting them back out to live their lives. It's about control.

I don't remember anything about that? :huh:
 
Thats true, they show that if you ever want to use your powers at all (even in a non super hero manor like getting groceries) you have to sign up and train and get drafted. Example: the girl called Cloud 9. All she was doing was flying around the sky on a cloud, like she was an extreme skater just having fun. Then War Machine and some air force guys stop her and tell her that if she ever wants to fly again she HAS to sign up with SHRA. She wasn't fighting evil, she was having a fun after noon all by herself. Then they also tell these new recruits who were forced to sign that they can't reveal their identities because the government doesn't want to have to protect their families. So the government doesn't have to protect them, but they do have to sign up and put their families and lives at risk as super agents.
Its not that I think Super heroes shouldn't have to be trained and answer for their acts, but they shouldn't HAVE to register and HAVE to become agents for the government and do whatever the government tells them.
its a comic book too, its not the real world.

I also don't think Tony was right in how he did stuff, and they way he did stuff was very villian like.
I also think some of the major changes made during Civil War, like Peter's ID, were done using him in some way or another. So that fans who were so upset blamed Tony.
 
But he goes about it in a very wrong way and he doesn't really learn like Captain America did.
Also, Iron Man isn't 100% right anyway.


He more or less is, and in the trade, he did exactly what he had to do. It was cap who decided to start the fight that killed golliath.
 
Iron Man isn't the villian, not really. But he is as close as you get in the Civil War book.
Sure there is an actual bad guy, but Wolverine was after him in his own book. There are others, but Tony does lots of underhanded stuff and justifies them with the end goal.

Because, as revealed in Fantastic Four, if they don't win then EARTH is kaput.

He sort of tricked Peter Parker into revealing his identity, something Peter would NEVER do. He was willing to take away peoples civil rights, even by force, or kill them trying.

Wrong on all counts. He didn't TRICK him. Not at ALL. He ASKED HIM TO, and it was Peter's family who convinced him to. Saying he tricked him is flat out lying. And he didn't take away any rights- there was a conversation in ASM 535 in which he did, a conversation which was almost immediately retconned. He also killed no-one in the war, in fact his side incurred less enemy casualties than Cap's.

He also cloned Thor and let loose a psychopath Thor clone on the other side that killed Goliath.

Which he regretted immensely and which was NEVER, EVER supposed to happen. Just like Cap didn't intend for his battle to kill 43 people in CW7? Including 37 civilians?

He even took the victory right when Captain America surrendered. Almost like he had won it and not won by default.

He HAD won it. Cap realised he was wrong and surrendered. iron Man did win it, of course he took the victory, Cap would have done the same.

But he goes about it in a very wrong way and he doesn't really learn like Captain America did.

They both resort to underhand methods but at the end of the day, one of them accidentally kills an enemy with a cyborg gone wrong and sets loose a team of CONTROLLED villains who kill no-one. The other sets loose a psychopathic mass murderer who guns down at least 4 people with no control, and shifts a giant fight into an area which will incur mass civilian casualties simply for selfish ends.

Cap didn't learn, Cap declined progressively as the series went on, and unlike Iron Man we didn't see regret. They BOTH sunk to ever lower means, but it wasn't until he stood over Iron Man on the verge of killing him that Cap finally realised, whereas Iron Man knew what he was doing along the way, and regretted it, but believed it would be worth it. Cap didn't think, he went in blind.
 
IM is bad IMO.
At the very least a patsy for the Gov't

How long before the US weilds the heroes as a weapon of war?

Ultimates anyone
 
IM is bad IMO.
At the very least a patsy for the Gov't

How long before the US weilds the heroes as a weapon of war?

Ultimates anyone
 
Iron Man isn't the villian, not really. But he is as close as you get in the Civil War book.
Sure there is an actual bad guy, but Wolverine was after him in his own book. There are others, but Tony does lots of underhanded stuff and justifies them with the end goal.
He sort of tricked Peter Parker into revealing his identity, something Peter would NEVER do. He was willing to take away peoples civil rights, even by force, or kill them trying.
He He just did a lot of sneaky and underhanded stuff, including sending the Thunderbolts to kill some Atlantians. He also cloned Thor and let loose a psychopath Thor clone on the other side that killed Goliath.
He even took the victory right when Captain America surrendered. Almost like he had won it and not won by default.

But he isn't an actual bad guy, he was doing what he thought was best. Trying to make sure that not just any young punk can say he is a hero and end up causing the deaths of millions. He thought what he was doing was right and that even if people hate him, in the end lifes would be safed.
But he is still the closest thing you get to a bad guy in Civil War.

If by tons of underhanded stuff, you mean like three things, then yes. Otherwise, everything was pretty much by the book. Morally "on the fence" things would be more accurate.

And a default win is STILL a win when the other side gives up.

And for the last f'ing time, he didn't TRICK Peter into it. Tricking him means that he was using Peter as a tool from the very beginning, when he was Peter's friend from well before Civil War via the New Avengers and letting him live in his home and hiring him as a body guard.

Tricking him would be Tony saying, "Yes, I will use Peter like a sheep, and then I will have my due." Where it was more of, "Hey, Spidey is my friend, maybe I can convince him to have the world trust us by showing him the benefits of revealing the world's most controversial hero to the public." He didn't FORCE Parker into it, he didn't even GUILT him.

That's about as inaccurate as saying Storm kicked the crap out of Clor.

I'd be ok with the SHRA if it didn't require heroes to give up their secret identities and if it didn't have that hidden clause where you basically get drafted into a superhero army once you register. It's not like the SHRA is about training heroes and then letting them back out to live their lives. It's about control.

But that was the whole thing, control of the heros so they're not out of control killing people on accident.

That's like...answering your own question. And they only have to register their identities with the system as a means of answering for problems they create. It's not like Stark just has them for sale or something.

The heros are trained (if they want to use their powers and be heros and the like), and then distributed as they best would fit. I doubt they'd just let them recondense to a single city or two after saying how that caused the Stamford accident.

Thats true, they show that if you ever want to use your powers at all (even in a non super hero manor like getting groceries) you have to sign up and train and get drafted. Example: the girl called Cloud 9. All she was doing was flying around the sky on a cloud, like she was an extreme skater just having fun. Then War Machine and some air force guys stop her and tell her that if she ever wants to fly again she HAS to sign up with SHRA. She wasn't fighting evil, she was having a fun after noon all by herself.

See, the whole thing was using these potentially dangerous powers without being checked. And there'd be a double standard if they were to be used just nonchalantly, and since mutants are basically extinct, they don't really have to worry about them. Mutants seemingly don't use their powers in public fashions potentially causing upsets. So if heros can only use their powers with licenses, so should everybody else.

Otherwise, it's called corruption and double standards. And THAT'S evil.

Then they also tell these new recruits who were forced to sign that they can't reveal their identities because the government doesn't want to have to protect their families. So the government doesn't have to protect them, but they do have to sign up and put their families and lives at risk as super agents.
Its not that I think Super heroes shouldn't have to be trained and answer for their acts, but they shouldn't HAVE to register and HAVE to become agents for the government and do whatever the government tells them.
its a comic book too, its not the real world.
They didn't make them not reveal their identities to save a few bucks and manpower. They said, "We won't do it, because you're not SUPPOSSED to give out your identity that you want to keep a secret so badly, that we're actually still keeping it a secret from the public which is like a silver platter deal since every other public servant has to give out their identity to the public." If they actually do what they're suppossed to, and keep their identities secret, then the family is in no trouble.

It's not like from moment one after Registration their house blows up.
IM is bad IMO.
At the very least a patsy for the Gov't

How long before the US weilds the heroes as a weapon of war?

Ultimates anyone

They're not used as a military force like in the Ultimates, where it was a subsection of the military. So...that'd be like sending police officers to war.
 
He more or less is, and in the trade, he did exactly what he had to do. It was cap who decided to start the fight that killed golliath.

It was Tony who thought it was a good idea to make a clone of a Norse God.
 
If you had just read Civil War by itself, I see where someone might have gotten this impression. Might. Maybe. Possibly.

But you should permaybehaps read some of the tie-ins as well -- specifically the events of Frontline, Amazing Spider-Man, both Captain America and Iron Man's solo series, New Avengers -- for a better idea of why Tony (and the rest of the SHRA in general) is being villainized, because Civil War did not exist in a vaccuum and its effects are truly being shown today.
 
He more or less is, and in the trade, he did exactly what he had to do. It was cap who decided to start the fight that killed golliath.
Actually, Cap thought he was responding to an emergency where people's lives were in danger. It was Tony who set a trap, ambushed him, and shot down two of his people. Y'know, before "peace talks" and stuff.

Just putting things in perspective.
 

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