Civil War: Law and Morality of the SHRA

[Fantasyartist]

I've noticed that supporters of the SHRA invoke the law to defend it. "Whatever we think of compulsory registration, it is the law and therefore we must obey it or suffer the consequences."

The trouble is with this argument is that it is defective morally. Perhaps this is not the place to dwell on religion, but it is surely worth noting that as Catholic theologians from St. Augustine to Thomas Aquinas have held, an "unjust law" is essentially no law at all( a point forcefully made by Americans as different to Henry Thoreau to Dr Martin Luther King when they went to jail for things they believed in deeply). One need not point to tyrannical regimes such as the Third Reich or Stalin's Soviet Union but just to established democracies such as the US (or UK) which tolerated slavery or denial of equal rights to the slaves descendants, those of Native Americans or women( ethnicity irrelevant) as "legal".(Don't even get me started on abortion!).
Does the US Government have the right to virtually "nationalize" super heroes? ( That is to say to force them to become wards of the state subject to the Governmental diktat- I would say no. it was for these reasons that the Soviet Super-Soldiers defected to the US). No matter what we may think of Captain America in the past, he and his fellow heroes who resist this tyrannical diktat are surely in the moral right!

Terry

 

[Trask]

As any lawyer would point out to you morality and law are rarely on the same side. That said, I belive that Cap and his team should have done what She-Hulk did and fight the government within the law (like others who have done so, Martin Luther King among them). It is pointless to fight the government from the outside unless you are willing to go to war with it and win (like in the Civil war). However since Cap's team are unwilling to kill there is no way they can win this way in the long run. The smart thing to do would have been to hang up his thights and fought the government in the media and public opinion, where he could have done a lot more.

 

[daveswb]

The government just passed a law that immediattly you must kill the first born male in your family or go to jail for the rest of your life till you do so. What will you do?

Well if you say I won't kill my son, then guess what you are going to jail, on non-american soil. So how do you fight it "legally"?

See the marvel "writters" gave the heroes no real option. They have to fight.

 

[Trask]

The government just passed a law that immediattly you must kill the first born male in your family or go to jail for the rest of your life till you do so. What will you do?

Well if you say I won't kill my son, then guess what you are going to jail, on non-american soil. So how do you fight it "legally"?

See the marvel "writters" gave the heroes no real option. They have to fight.

Ehhhh... that is a bit of an over-reaction. They have a number of choices

1) Register

2) Go into hiding and continue being a superhero

3) Stop being a superhero

4) Leave the US and go to another country

And of course there are other things you could do once you choose to do one of those four, like fighting the government and helping others like you while you are in hiding or fighting for your belive in the public light once you have stopped being a superhero and so on.

The problem is that most of the superheroes by thier nature are always quick to choose to use phisical violence to solve thier problems, so naturally thier first reaction is to fight the government in that manner.

I mean think about it, if Ironman was against the SHRA do you think his first reaction would be to fight the government as Iron Man or to fight them in the public light as Tony Stark. Take a look at what Dr Strange is doing or She-Hulk.

I think Steve would have made more of a difference if he had deicded to quit being Cap and took his message to the people as Steve Rogers a.k.a Captain America. After all in the end it is the people who will decide the outcome and not a few superheroes in hiding.

Also altho the law was passed with great speed, it was not that sudden. The heroes had time to decide what to do. If they wanted they could have left the US or quit being a hero. The act has been in the works for some time, it is just that the incident with the school forced the governments hand in the matter.

 

[NateGray]

Ehhhh... that is a bit of an over-reaction. They have a number of choices

1) Register

2) Go into hiding and continue being a superhero

3) Stop being a superhero

4) Leave the US and go to another country

And of course there are other things you could do once you choose to do one of those four, like fighting the government and helping others like you while you are in hiding or fighting for your belive in the public light once you have stopped being a superhero and so on.

The problem is that most of the superheroes by thier nature are always quick to choose to use phisical violence to solve thier problems, so naturally thier first reaction is to fight the government in that manner.

I mean think about it, if Ironman was against the SHRA do you think his first reaction would be to fight the government as Iron Man or to fight them in the public light as Tony Stark. Take a look at what Dr Strange is doing or She-Hulk.

I think Steve would have made more of a difference if he had deicded to quit being Cap and took his message to the people as Steve Rogers a.k.a Captain America. After all in the end it is the people who will decide the outcome and not a few superheroes in hiding.

Also altho the law was passed with great speed, it was not that sudden. The heroes had time to decide what to do. If they wanted they could have left the US or quit being a hero. The act has been in the works for some time, it is just that the incident with the school forced the governments hand in the matter.

Well let me just shoot down your choices since none of them are really acceptable.

1st you say register and I counter with not an option if you register you are a government stooge and they watch you 24/7/365 so yeh not an option.

2nd go into hiding and continue being a superhero , while this is the only option it is very difficult knowing the pro reg people have no morals and will setup emergencies just to catch you, We will not even mention them attacking your teams porters then trying to spin the trap they set as just wanting to talk to you or better yet cloning heros touse as stooges.

3rd not an option see NA where Luke Cage wanted to use that option its two choices and this is not one of them either register and work for them or go under ground so nada on choice three.

4th while an option its a weak one at best since they are basicly forcing you out of your country due to an illegal and unfair imoral law sorta like when people left Europe and came to the US back in the 17th century sound familar....

 

[roach]

The government just passed a law that immediattly you must kill the first born male in your family or go to jail for the rest of your life till you do so. What will you do?

Well if you say I won't kill my son, then guess what you are going to jail, on non-american soil. So how do you fight it "legally"?

See the marvel "writters" gave the heroes no real option. They have to fight.

Laws arent passed that quickly and without fanfare. If they even decided to make a law to kill the first born this would have been debated for weeks by politicians before they even had to vote. Debates would have been televised.

 

[Kitsune]

Ehhhh... that is a bit of an over-reaction. They have a number of choices

1) Register

2) Go into hiding and continue being a superhero

3) Stop being a superhero

4) Leave the US and go to another country

And of course there are other things you could do once you choose to do one of those four, like fighting the government and helping others like you while you are in hiding or fighting for your belive in the public light once you have stopped being a superhero and so on.

The problem is that most of the superheroes by thier nature are always quick to choose to use phisical violence to solve thier problems, so naturally thier first reaction is to fight the government in that manner.

I mean think about it, if Ironman was against the SHRA do you think his first reaction would be to fight the government as Iron Man or to fight them in the public light as Tony Stark. Take a look at what Dr Strange is doing or She-Hulk.

I think Steve would have made more of a difference if he had deicded to quit being Cap and took his message to the people as Steve Rogers a.k.a Captain America. After all in the end it is the people who will decide the outcome and not a few superheroes in hiding.

Also altho the law was passed with great speed, it was not that sudden. The heroes had time to decide what to do. If they wanted they could have left the US or quit being a hero. The act has been in the works for some time, it is just that the incident with the school forced the governments hand in the matter.

You forgot the third option. Refuse to register, turn yourself in and figth the registration act via the leagle system. Of couse this doesn't work so well when the government is apparently locking people away in the Negative zone and throwing away the key.

 

[daveswb]

Well if you are reading FrontLine you know that the no-regestered heroes are being considered combatants of the state. Which means they have no rights. They are simply criminals for not following a new law. And according to New Avengers, if they know you have powers you do not have a choice to retire. You must register and work for the government. Seems faire, doesn't it?

So your choices are leave the country or go to jail.
There is no work to change the system choice. Tony said in ASM, She-Hulk can file all the appeals she wants, it'll take an order from the supreme court to change things and that ain't going to happen.

I know that in real life a law wouldn't be passed like it was in the book, but that's not how the writters of Civil War painted it. The passing of the law was a knee jerk reaction to the stamford incident. The heroes have no choice. Serve or go to jail.

This is the biggest problem with the story, the pro-registration side has been painted as a no choice nazi-sh style do it or die type of side. A painting of the government is evil kind of thing. How can somone serioulsy sympithasis with them?

 

[Marcdachamp]

Laws arent passed that quickly and without fanfare. If they even decided to make a law to kill the first born this would have been debated for weeks by politicians before they even had to vote. Debates would have been televised.

Look at the Patriot Act. Yes, there were those that opposed it, but detractors were few and far between in a country affected by a national tragedy. Yes, now people oppose it, but it took a while.

I think it would've been interesting to see Xavier on Earth during all of this. It's a shame he isn't.

 

[Darthphere]

Law and Morality dont co-exist.

 

[jaydawg]

I dont understand why they need to make the pro's seem so evil. At its core, their side makes sense. Put yourself in the peoples shoes. The heroes need to held responsible for their actions. Thats all you need to say. But instead, their giving villains badges, they're making supporting characters into conspirisy foes and making heroes into villains. They actually call themselves cape killers. What the hell?

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Because Miller couldn't present both sides of an argument to save his life.

 

[Darthphere]

I dont understand why they need to make the pro's seem so evil. At its core, their side makes sense. Put yourself in the peoples shoes. The heroes need to held responsible for their actions. Thats all you need to say. But instead, their giving villains badges, they're making supporting characters into conspirisy foes and making heroes into villains. They actually call themselves cape killers. What the hell?

In its entirety the SHRA makes sense. Within the parameters of the Marvel Universe its a logical step towards the future. The problem isnt with the Act or the heroes, its with the writers and editorial staff at Marvel. Theyve gotten use to the fact that writers like Millar will write satirical stories like the Ultimates which is supposed to be an afront to the current administration and for people like celldog to take it seriously not realizing that hes the type of person being called out in the comic. Fact is, Millar thinks the government is evil and has painted it at such. Sadly, editors at Marvel have let him run with this idea and allowed him to present the Pro-Reg side of this conflict as morally ambigous figures, while the Anti-Reg side isnt painted in that well of a light either, its a lot easier to cheer for the underdgo especially when the enmy is the government.

 

[roach]

Look at the Patriot Act. Yes, there were those that opposed it, but detractors were few and far between in a country affected by a national tragedy. Yes, now people oppose it, but it took a while.

I think it would've been interesting to see Xavier on Earth during all of this. It's a shame he isn't.

and at the time of it's writing it was debated.....and it wasnt rushed to Law either

 

[Darthphere]

and at the time of it's writing it was debated.....and it wasnt rushed to Law either

The debates were just a show though, everyone knew it was going to pass, and it did, only Feingold voted against it in the Senate.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

In its entirety the SHRA makes sense. Within the parameters of the Marvel Universe its a logical step towards the future. The problem isnt with the Act or the heroes, its with the writers and editorial staff at Marvel. Theyve gotten use to the fact that writers like Millar will write satirical stories like the Ultimates which is supposed to be an afront to the current administration and for people like celldog to take it seriously not realizing that hes the type of person being called out in the comic. Fact is, Millar thinks the government is evil and has painted it at such. Sadly, editors at Marvel have let him run with this idea and allowed him to present the Pro-Reg side of this conflict as morally ambigous figures, while the Anti-Reg side isnt painted in that well of a light either, its a lot easier to cheer for the underdgo especially when the enmy is the government.

Just quoting this for effect.

What's worse is that its not even good satire.

 

[Darthphere]

And it only took 6 weeks to sing the Act into law.

 

[Tropico]

Who sang it? Wong?

 

[Darthphere]

Lame.

 

[roach]

The problem isnt with the Act or the heroes, its with the writers and editorial staff at Marvel. Theyve gotten use to the fact that writers like Millar will write satirical stories like the Ultimates which is supposed to be an afront to the current administration and for people like celldog to take it seriously not realizing that hes the type of person being called out in the comic.

so what is gonna happen when we get a new President

 

[Darthphere]

so what is gonna happen when we get a new President

Im pretty sure the anti-government point of view will continue to exist throughout the MU but depending on who is the next president, it should be sub-dued.

 

[jaydawg]

Um.... Iraqi will be left to its own devices and further crumble over how America has ****ed it over so badly?

 

[Darthphere]

Um.... Iraqi will be left to its own devices and further crumble over how America has ****ed it over so badly?

Jaydawg says what?

 

[prins777]

I've noticed that supporters of the SHRA invoke the law to defend it. "Whatever we think of compulsory registration, it is the law and therefore we must obey it or suffer the consequences."

The trouble is with this argument is that it is defective morally. Perhaps this is not the place to dwell on religion, but it is surely worth noting that as Catholic theologians from St. Augustine to Thomas Aquinas have held, an "unjust law" is essentially no law at all( a point forcefully made by Americans as different to Henry Thoreau to Dr Martin Luther King when they went to jail for things they believed in deeply). One need not point to tyrannical regimes such as the Third Reich or Stalin's Soviet Union but just to established democracies such as the US (or UK) which tolerated slavery or denial of equal rights to the slaves descendants, those of Native Americans or women( ethnicity irrelevant) as "legal".(Don't even get me started on abortion!).
Does the US Government have the right to virtually "nationalize" super heroes? ( That is to say to force them to become wards of the state subject to the Governmental diktat- I would say no. it was for these reasons that the Soviet Super-Soldiers defected to the US). No matter what we may think of Captain America in the past, he and his fellow heroes who resist this tyrannical diktat are surely in the moral right!

Terry

The problem as I see it is not so much the law v. morallity question since I don't think the SHRA is necessarily immoral, I think the real problem is the violation and extinguishent of civil rights. The fact that due process rights are being ignored and there are no rules regarding the treatment of prisoners.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

The government just passed a law that immediattly you must kill the first born male in your family or go to jail for the rest of your life till you do so. What will you do?

Well if you say I won't kill my son, then guess what you are going to jail, on non-american soil. So how do you fight it "legally"?

See the marvel "writters" gave the heroes no real option. They have to fight.

That's a little extreme and unfair to the context of the SHRA.