Comic book films vs. The Western

[writer0327]

Remember westerns? Yeah, only if you're like 50 and up. I used to watch them on Sunday afternoons on KTLA here in L.A., but that was when I was like 8 and that was when there was literally nothing else on, and these westerns were all made 30 years before.

Fast forward to 2017. With the overabundance of comic book films coming out every year, it's going to get to a point that they feel less and less special with each new one, much like the western. I'm not saying there is going to be comic book fatigue, but eventually we got to Western Fatigue, did we not? What things could be done to avoid the calamity of the Western genre? I have a few ideas.

1. 5 or less CBM films a year
Sounds like crazy talk, I know, especially with CBMs practically the hottest films going right now, but if we get over inundated with CBM films at the rate of 7 a year (like 2017), there is a strong chance that 3-4 of them will be utter duds. I think each major studio (Marvel, Fox, Sony, WB) should focus on just releasing one or two every couple of years. If I ran the zoo, I'd say Marvel and DC could release a max of two films a year, and Fox and Sony could alternate every other year.

2. Keep them as low budget as possible.
This part isn't as easy as it looks, but the recent success of low budget CBM films proves the lower the budget, the chances are the better job they'll do on the script. When they can go hog wild with special effects, things begin to get dicey. I'm not saying never go big, but not every film needs $200M to tell a story.

3. Balance between shared universe and standalone.
I actually like a good standalone CBM here and there. I don't think sharing universes is all good or all bad. I think some of these characters need films to stand on their own, and I think some definitely benefit from being a part of a shared universe

4. Kill major characters (not just the villains)
This is something I think all CBMs could definitely improve upon. Villains seem to die with no problem, but what about the heroes? Despite it's clunky delivery (in my opinion), Superman dying in BvS was a nice change of pace, even though we know he wasn't dead forever. We need more deaths, doesn't have to necessarily be the superheroes either. Important side characters like Coulson....but actually keep them dead.

5. Diversity
The most important aspect that will keep CBMs going strong into the future. Make sure everyone has a seat a the table. Men and women of every race, religion, and nationality should feel included. One of the problems with Westerns were they were primarily about white American males, and that got outdated in a hurry. The world is more global and the foreign market is more important to the film industry than ever (it's the sole reason Transformers movies keep getting made) so it's imperative to be able to adapt and be able to speak to each new generation as time passes.

 

[psylockolussus]

Western films usually have the same desert setting and cowboys. Comic book films have more variety. So this comparison isn't fair.

 

[2kt09]

2. Keep them as low budget as possible.
This part isn't as easy as it looks, but the recent success of low budget CBM films proves the lower the budget, the chances are the better job they'll do on the script. When they can go hog wild with special effects, things begin to get dicey. I'm not saying never g

You didn't finish your thought.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

They do still make westerns you know. A few come out every year. The genre isn't dead. It just isn't nearly as prolific as it once was when hundreds were being made every year.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

Western films usually have the same desert setting and cowboys. Comic book films have more variety.

I think that's true. Also, the heroic central characters of westerns tend to be cut from the same kind of cloth, pretty much. There's more variety with the heroes of CBMs; look at the differing approaches/personality types of the leads in Batman Begins, Superman the Movie, Ant-Man, The Wolverine, Green Lantern, Fantastic Four, Watchmen, to name just a few.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

They do still make westerns you know. A few come out every year. The genre isn't dead. It just isn't nearly as prolific as it once was when hundreds were being made every year.

I think Crowe and Bale's 3:10 to Yuma remake is one of the best westerns I've ever seen.

 

[writer0327]

You didn't finish your thought.

Thanks....I was editing that part when I submitted.

 

[writer0327]

They do still make westerns you know. A few come out every year. The genre isn't dead. It just isn't nearly as prolific as it once was when hundreds were being made every year.

And that's my point. I realize they still make the films, Django Unchained was one of the better ones in the last 5 years. But once upon a time, Westerns were the most popular films in the country, much like comic book films now. Now they are more or less a novelty in film making, a throwback, a nod to the olden days of film.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think Crowe and Bale's 3:10 to Yuma remake is one of the best westerns I've ever seen.

I think so too. My favorite James Mangold movie.

The Western lives on in television as well with successes like Deadwood, Hell on Wheels, and most recently, Westworld.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

And that's my point. I realize they still make the films, Django Unchained was one of the better ones in the last 5 years. But once upon a time, Westerns were the most popular films in the country, much like comic book films now. Now they are more or less a novelty in film making, a throwback, a nod to the olden days of film.

There is nothing that can be done to stop that from happening to the superhero genre. As generations change, so do their tastes and interests. Nothing stays on top forever, although they frequently cycle back into style down later down the line.

 

[writer0327]

Sorry, maybe I should have stated clearly that I know Westerns still exist. However Westerns aren't what they used to be. As a movie genre, they used to sit on top of the movie world, again, much like CBMs are today. Some of the biggest movie stars in the 40s, 50s, and 60s were the stars of Westerns. But no movie studio is trying to come up with the next big Western and throwing $200M to make it.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

No comic book film has yet come close to the cinematic masterstroke that is "Once Upon a Time In the West".

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

No comic book film has yet come close to the cinematic masterstroke that is "Once Upon a Time In the West".

That is a great film and one of my very favourite westerns of all, although I put The Dark Knight easily alongside it.

 

[David H.]

Sorry, maybe I should have stated clearly that I know Westerns still exist. However Westerns aren't what they used to be. As a movie genre, they used to sit on top of the movie world, again, much like CBMs are today. Some of the biggest movie stars in the 40s, 50s, and 60s were the stars of Westerns. But no movie studio is trying to come up with the next big Western and throwing $200M to make it.

Westerns were the trend once upon a time. There.

I think we're lacking in "classics" for the two to be properly compared, otherwise it's a shallow discussion.

 

[metaphysician]

Okay, something far too many people ignore. A big part of why Westerns were so big, was because they were dirt cheap to make. This was because Hollywood was located right next to the 'Old West'. It also had access to a comparatively vast supply of cheap expert labor, in the form of animal trainers and handlers, stage cowboys, and other performers connected to the earlier industry of wild west shows.

The decline of the Western, coincidentally, happened around the time that the preexisting labor market of said trained individuals aged into retirement or the grave. While shifting genre tastes may have been responsible for Westerns no longer filling out the "Best of the year" in film, the collapse in raw *number* was purely because of economics. Once you no longer had an oversupply of expert labor, you had to actually pay reasonable wages. Exeunt the oversupply of the low end western, enter genres that don't need skilled animal handling professionals.

 

[Heretic]

Westerns are a genre...cowboy hats...horses etc. There's certain things you can expect to see in a western.

Comic book movies are just films adapted from the comics medium. Some comic book movies include Avengers (one of the biggest box office hits of all time) and Blue is the Warmest Color (winner of the Palm d'Or at Cannes in 2013). Those are very different films. The superhero trend could crash and burn, completely disappearing from theaters, and comics would still be a viable source for filmmakers to mine for concepts.

From The Bridge On The River Kwai to the new It trailer...I wonder if people have spent 60 years wondering when the death of the "movies based on books" trend would end.

 

[writer0327]

Okay, something far too many people ignore. A big part of why Westerns were so big, was because they were dirt cheap to make. This was because Hollywood was located right next to the 'Old West'. It also had access to a comparatively vast supply of cheap expert labor, in the form of animal trainers and handlers, stage cowboys, and other performers connected to the earlier industry of wild west shows.

The decline of the Western, coincidentally, happened around the time that the preexisting labor market of said trained individuals aged into retirement or the grave. While shifting genre tastes may have been responsible for Westerns no longer filling out the "Best of the year" in film, the collapse in raw *number* was purely because of economics. Once you no longer had an oversupply of expert labor, you had to actually pay reasonable wages. Exeunt the oversupply of the low end western, enter genres that don't need skilled animal handling professionals.

So you believe that Westerns just got too expensive to mass produce and that assisted in their demise? I can certainly understand that being a factor.

Nice post, good point on the animal training. That's something I never considered.

 

[DACrowe]

Western films usually have the same desert setting and cowboys. Comic book films have more variety. So this comparison isn't fair.

Clearly you have seen very few westerns.

Comic book movies actually suffer this problem to a much greater degree. Due to Westerns not being beholden strictly to tidal waves of corporate money, and in limited IP rights at that, they could be made by any studio at almost any price... on the cheap or the grandly epic, Saturday morning matinees for the kids, or operatic mythic passion plays from John Ford.

Also because of that there is a vast variety of Westerns made between the 1930s and 1960s, many of which went about the form very differently from one another. There was a monotony too, but there was also far more experimentation and diversification.

Superhero movies are becoming homogenous, particularly since there are only a handful of IPs people watch, and most of the popular ones are controlled by Marvel Studios which has a "one size fits all" mentality about storytelling, visuals, aesthetics, tone, and characterization. There is far less variety in modern superhero movies than Westerns at their height. Hopefully, Logan and Deadpool challenge other studios, including Marvel and their own Fox brand, to try harder to be different.

 

[Drseuss]

Clearly you have seen very few westerns.

Comic book movies actually suffer this problem to a much greater degree. Due to Westerns not being beholden strictly to tidal waves of corporate money, and in limited IP rights at that, they could be made by any studio at almost any price... on the cheap or the grandly epic, Saturday morning matinees for the kids, or operatic mythic passion plays from John Ford.

Also because of that there is a vast variety of Westerns made between the 1930s and 1960s, many of which went about the form very differently from one another. There was a monotony too, but there was also far more experimentation and diversification.

Superhero movies are becoming homogenous, particularly since there are only a handful of IPs people watch, and most of the popular ones are controlled by Marvel Studios which has a "one size fits all" mentality about storytelling, visuals, aesthetics, tone, and characterization. There is far less variety in modern superhero movies than Westerns at their height. Hopefully, Logan and Deadpool challenge other studios, including Marvel and their own Fox brand, to try harder to be different.

100% with you

Some people above say cbms have variety because they arent just superheroes......but lets be honest, how many non-superhero cbms make as much noise as superhero movies.


Marvel uses the 'one size fits all' formula because all the movies are taken as episodes of a serialised tv show. It sounds good for a new franchise but gets more tiring forward. we can tolerate 22 episodes of 'Arrow' with the same tone, plot, visuals, but not 22 movies of it...


so all of OPs suggestions go against this principle. CBMs will have more or less the same budget -- the way tv episodes have more or less the same budget. Shared universe is sadly a reality if fans think multi film storytelling is the future.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think Marvel will be okay. It is a franchise, not a genre. There is precedent for particular franchises remaining popular for decades (ex. James Bond, Star Wars, Godzilla). They go up and down in popularity, but manage to endure. Also, much like Bond, the studio that makes them exists basically solely to make those movies.

Non-MCU superhero films could have much bigger problems once the genre declines in popularity.

 

[Fincher]

I'd agree that Marvel's in a better position to ride it out than the other studios. That said, they'd have to slow down their output and likely fall back on their popular, already established characters.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

I think Marvel will be okay. It is a franchise, not a genre. There is precedent for particular franchises remaining popular for decades (ex. James Bond, Star Wars, Godzilla). They go up and down in popularity, but manage to endure. Also, much like Bond, the studio that makes them exists basically solely to make those movies.

Non-MCU superhero films could have much bigger problems once the genre declines in popularity.

That gets me thinking. We've had several unconnected Batman films over the years. Do you think that could happen with any MCU heroes? When the MCU has finally run its course will we get Cap or Iron Man or Thor reboots down the line in their own universes like Burton/Schumacher and Nolan did with Batman? Or is the cinematic appeal of those characters due to the interconnectedness of the MCU? What I'm trying to say is, has the success of the MCU put their characters in the position where they'll be able to stand on their own in future standalone reboots as Batman has been able to do? Just wonderin'

 

[2kt09]

We're still so far away from the perceived bubble burst. Remember 2015?
This superhero thing is much more seen as a genre than movies based on <insert media>
Said genre is still way too influenced by other movies/genres to be taken as seriously as its own thing. Who doesn't love a good remix?

1. 5 or less CBM films a year
Five is most certainly not a threshold if we had a year of 20 animated movies starring talking animals.
If we are limiting the output, it's one/studio, no exceptions.

2. Keep them as low budget as possible.
And now the output means jack if they can profit on "low as possible"
It's all about how you market at that point.

3. Balance between shared universe and standalone.
The balance right now seems fine enough.
Every spinoff is pretty damn standalone if we're not just talking about one-off indies

4. Kill major characters (not just the villains)
Sounds like you've directed this at one particular studio

5. Diversity
Embrace genre(s) fully and let the superhero side be secondary/tertiary
or continue to be seen as yet another of these and be left behind

 

[HBarnill]

No CBM comes close to The Searchers, though.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

No CBM comes close to The Searchers, though.

The Dark Knight is the best CBM ever, but I'd still put it below a few Westerns like The Searchers, Shane, The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly, Once Upon a Time in the West, High Noon, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, and Unforgiven. Also Blazing Saddles, if you count it as a Western.