BvS Constructive Criticism of BvS, MoS, and Zack Snyder's Directorial Style

[rogbngp]

This thread grew out of the Skepticism thread which many fans of MoS and Snyder's work find frustrating. Those of us who are mostly fond of MoS, like Zack Snyder's work in general, and are optimistic about BvS need a place to discuss MoS and its tie-ins to BvS with an eye toward what we feel could use improvement. Hopefully in this thread we can do so constructively without the discussion devolving into an endless back-and-forth between enthusiastic fans of MoS, on the one hand, and those who basically can't stand MoS and how Snyder directed it, on the other. The discussions of that type between MoS/Snyder fans and detractors can get very tiresome after a while, because the same things just keep getting restated again and again.

I feel that MoS discussion is very relevant to BvS. MoS is basically the prequel for BvS. MoS sets the stage for BvS's story. And especially once BvS hits the theaters there will be lots to discuss about the tie-ins between the two films.

So again, the Skepticism thread can continue to be a place where those who strongly dislike MoS, Snyder's directorial style, and perhaps BvS as well can continue with what that thread is intended for.

But this thread can be a place for people who hold a mostly positive view of MoS, Snyder, and BvS, but wish to discuss what they feel is lacking about any of these elements, and could have been done better, etc. In other words it for constructive criticism by people who like MoS, BvS, and Snyder. (Not that everyone has to like all three, but that's the basic idea in a nutshell.)

So with all that said...

What things about MoS, Snyder's directorial style, or BvS do you wish had been done better? Why so?

 

[MrsKent26]

This is probably a good idea. Even though I have nothing against the Skepticism thread and post there regularly, I do have some affection for MOS/Snyder and find that on occasion, it's hard to express that in there.

 

[RF20Lennon]

I dunno if you've seen Confused Matthew's review of Man of Steel. On a screenplay level he took the words right out of my mouth. But I enjoyed it a lot more than he did. I still think it's the best superhero film in 2013.

 

[rockandrollsoul]

My biggest issue with MoS is the pacing and it's what I feel will be the most important aspect in BvS' success or lack-there-of. The inclusion of Terrio and Affleck breeds some confidence in this area, though.

I was also not a fan of how Lois was shoe-horned into many scenes and hope she fits into BvS' plot more naturally this time. I felt Lois and Clark's relationship could've been handled better, as well, (specifically I felt the kiss wasn't earned) so I hope their relationship is handled better.

Finally, the cinematography, while not terrible, left something to be desired for me, but I absolutely love what I've seen from Snyder/Fong in BvS so far.

 

[DeadPresident]

The writing, as a broad umbrella, is where MoS went wrong. I'm not sure how much input Snyder had in that area, but if he was simply directing what was put in front of him I can't fault him for much of MoS's flaws.

I'd say the pacing and some dialogue were the biggest technical issues the movie had.

 

[MrsKent26]

I felt the script was its biggest weakness.

The dialogue was dealt out sparsely, unless it was for an unnatural speech. I'm hoping to hear people talk naturally this time.

 

[rockandrollsoul]

I felt the script was its biggest weakness.

The dialogue was dealt out sparsely, unless it was for an unnatural speech. I'm hoping to hear people talk naturally this time.

Agreed and I'll add to that that I really like what I've heard in this department from BvS.

 

[DeadPresident]

I'd agree. In all honesty I don't think it was a train smash, there were just many moments where it felt like something a little more subtle or just different could've worked better than what we had. Some of the dialogue came off as stuff that would work in speech bubbles, not said aloud.

I truly believe with BvS that Terrio (and Affleck) will provide a far more subtle and nuanced storytelling experience. At least for me if BvS remedies that issue it'll probably be heading towards my favorite CBM, since the tone and universe MoS set up is something I really enjoy and have no issues with. MoS with a quality script and neater narrative wouldn't have drawn so much criticism, so I feel like that should be low on the list of likely faults with BvS.

I think the criticisms BvS will end up getting will be related to the non-script issues that MoS had, because there still seem to be some people that think that BvS will take everything about MoS and completely do a 180 on it. It's not suddenly going to be a happy-go-lucky atmosphere, so I'll probably end up ignoring any of that as a vaguely valid criticism. It'd be the same as people saying a Marvel movie didn't become more serious. People already know what to expect, it shouldn't come as a surprise when this is tonally congruent with MoS.

 

[MrsKent26]

Agreed and I'll add to that that I really like what I've heard in this department from BvS.

As do I, for the most part. The only bit I don't like so far is Lex's little "bat from Gotham fights Son of Krypton" introduction. That sounds corny and unnatural to me, but I can see why they put it in there considering the central conflict they want to hype up.

The rest seems quite good though. "How many good guys are there? How many stayed that way?" and "...three syllable word for a concept too big for tiny minds" are standouts.

 

[Tra-El]

Sometimes I wonder if the execution of the flashback scenes would have packed a more emotional punch if MoS was told in linear fashion. I think MoS's most pressing issues stem from Goyer ' s script and screenplay mostly, so the flashbacks could have derailed some of that emotion when it came to how the story was put together and the impact it was supposed to have with the audience. Some flashbacks were golden, like Ma Kent racing to the aid of young Clark in the school closet. That part really gets me every time when Martha whispers "..Clark..". That was great use of the flashback.

I felt other flashback moments could of been more dramatically extended if they spent time setting up some scenes instead of jumping right into the solution. The story was there for more emotion, but I feel some flashbacks robbed us of more detail and back story to connect to the drama. Man of Steel had an uphill battle, especially with the emphasis of action and fleshing things out like Krypton, but if BvS were to use flashbacks that stem emotion, I hope they spend more time on them.

Shaky cam was another issue I had. Some of it was welcomed. Other times were not and I felt the intensity of some of the shaky cam was distracting.

 

[MrsKent26]

I truly believe with BvS that Terrio (and Affleck) will provide a far more subtle and nuanced storytelling experience. At least for me if BvS remedies that issue it'll probably be heading towards my favorite CBM, since the tone and universe MoS set up is something I really enjoy and have no issues with. MoS with a quality script and neater narrative wouldn't have drawn so much criticism, so I feel like that should be low on the list of likely faults with BvS.

I think the criticisms BvS will end up getting will be related to the non-script issues that MoS had, because there still seem to be some people that think that BvS will take everything about MoS and completely do a 180 on it. It's not suddenly going to be a happy-go-lucky atmosphere, so I'll probably end up ignoring any of that as a vaguely valid criticism. It'd be the same as people saying a Marvel movie didn't become more serious. People already know what to expect, it shouldn't come as a surprise when this is tonally congruent with MoS.

I enjoyed the tone and universe set up by MOS as well and was very happy to see it appeared to be continuing that way when the first BvS teaser came out.

Sometimes I wonder if the execution of the flashback scenes would have packed a more emotional punch if MoS was told in linear fashion. I think MoS's most pressing issues stem from Goyer ' s script and screenplay mostly, so the flashbacks could have derailed some of that emotion when it came to how the story was put together and the impact it was supposed to have with the audience. Some flashbacks were golden, like Ma Kent racing to the aid of young Clark in the school closet. That part really gets me every time when Martha whispers "..Clark..". That was great use of the flashback.

I felt other flashback moments could of been more dramatically extended if they spent time setting up some scenes instead of jumping right into the solution. The story was there for more emotion, but I feel some flashbacks robbed us of more detail and back story to connect to the drama. Man of Steel had an uphill battle, especially with the emphasis of action and fleshing things out like Krypton, but if BvS were to use flashbacks that stem emotion, I hope they spend more time on them.

Shaky cam was another issue I had. Some of it was welcomed. Other times were not and I felt the intensity of some of the shaky cam was distracting.

I think Clark's younger years and the Kent family in general needed more screen time. IMO, they spent too much time with Krypton. I think that they should have just had one emotional scene of Jor and Lara sending Clark to Earth and scrapped Jor's AI. Perhaps he and Lara could have made a short farewell recording for Clark that he watched in the ship and leave it at that. There was no need to hear about Krypton's demise twice. This would also mean that Superman would have to be Clark's idea only, not Jor's, which is preferable to me. With the extra screen time, they could spend more time with the Kents and on Clark coming up with the idea of becoming superman.

 

[BH/HHH]

I don't really have any issues with anything in Man of Steel, it's well known round here how much I love the movie. However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer a few things to be different (even my other most beloved movies there are little things I'd make changes to). Here's what they are:

Linear: Not that I don't think the non linear approach doesn't work, it totally does but I'd have preferred a linear approach. I would certainly have loved to have seen the rocket actually land in Smallville aswell, plus the doctors scene with baby Kal El.
Editing: There's just a couple of scenes I'd edit slightly, one is the Death of Jonathan Kent. I simply think the execution of this scene would be less under the microscope if it had been edited a little better. To much time passes with Clark under the overpass to Jonathan actually been in trouble. Maybe if they had both been working to save people and Jonathan got caught in the car at that point it would have worked better. I think if Clark had realised at the last second and then Jonthan raised his hand it would have worked better.
Montage: even though Flight is one of my absolute favourite scenes I personally would have made his learning to fly more on a montage cutting back and forth between him 'testing his limits' to him speaking with Jor El. I think by doing this they could have pkayed up the humour of his failed flight where he crashes into the mountains. Doing it this way the combined epicness of the Jor El speech and the successful first flight would remain intact but would be beefed up by abit more of him training/talking with Jor El.

I don't know if this is the right topic for me to raise those preferences, and believe me that's all they are (easy for he to say in hindsight) but I felt I would bring them up here.

The one crtiiscm I have of other criticsms though is I wish people would layoff Goyer sometimes, sure his scripting isn't a 100% solid but why can't anyone credit him for the good ge did with this film? He wrote sone amazing stuff in Man of Steel. I think people often overlook his contributions to the Dark Knight trilogy aswell.

 

[Spider-jedi]

I think Clark's younger years and the Kent family in general needed more screen time. IMO, they spent too much time with Krypton. I think that they should have just had one emotional scene of Jor and Lara sending Clark to Earth and scrapped Jor's AI. Perhaps he and Lara could have made a short farewell recording for Clark that he watched in the ship and leave it at that. There was no need to hear about Krypton's demise twice. This would also mean that Superman would have to be Clark's idea only, not Jor's, which is preferable to me. With the extra screen time, they could spend more time with the Kents and on Clark coming up with the idea of becoming superman.

I personally loved the scenes on krypton( i wanted more). I was fine with the flashbacks. we really didnt need to see the same beats been hit again with the origin. My biggest issue with the film are lois, the handheld camera method used and the color ton e of cinematography. There were scenes when i wasnt sure if it was dusk, dawn, day, eveing or night.

Lois was shoehorned into scenes for plot reason IMO. why did zod want her on the ship? The less said about the hand held camera scenes the better.

I thought the movie was a 7/10. if it didnt have that blue filter and the shaky cam thing its a 8/10 for me. yes there were some dialog issue but all movies have those.

Side note i think some fans didnt like it cuz WB gave the impression that they were trying to make superman more like batman and i can understand that not siting right with some fans.

 

[rockandrollsoul]

I think Clark's younger years and the Kent family in general needed more screen time. IMO, they spent too much time with Krypton. I think that they should have just had one emotional scene of Jor and Lara sending Clark to Earth and scrapped Jor's AI. Perhaps he and Lara could have made a short farewell recording for Clark that he watched in the ship and leave it at that. There was no need to hear about Krypton's demise twice. This would also mean that Superman would have to be Clark's idea only, not Jor's, which is preferable to me. With the extra screen time, they could spend more time with the Kents and on Clark coming up with the idea of becoming superman.

I enjoyed Russell Crowe's Jor-El, but I totally agree. Especially about too much time being spent on Krypton .

 

[Rowsdower!]

My only real issues with MOS were in the script; I would have done a few things differently... mainly, the Pa Kent death scene bothered me, as did having Superman battle the world engine in the middle of the ocean while Metropolis is being laid to waste. I feel like if they had just tweaked those two things, the movie would get a lot less criticism. The rest of it? I think the editing was fine, the performances were all great. My worry with BvS though is that they'll go full-on with the battles and the badassery and leave the softer moments on the cutting room floor. And that would be a shame, because I feel like a lot of those scenes in MOS were some of the best in the film (moments with Lois and Clark, Clark and Martha, etc.). I just hope Snyder doesn't sacrifice heart for spectacle. Many might disagree with me, but I don't feel that's what he did in MOS, and I hope that's not what he does here.

Oh yeah, reducing Pete Ross from a trusted friend and a successful politician to *****ey bully and later an IHOP employee was kinda crappy. Eh, then again, most politicians end up corrupt anyway.

 

[Tra-El]

I enjoyed the tone and universe set up by MOS as well and was very happy to see it appeared to be continuing that way when the first BvS teaser came out.



I think Clark's younger years and the Kent family in general needed more screen time. IMO, they spent too much time with Krypton. I think that they should have just had one emotional scene of Jor and Lara sending Clark to Earth and scrapped Jor's AI. Perhaps he and Lara could have made a short farewell recording for Clark that he watched in the ship and leave it at that. There was no need to hear about Krypton's demise twice. This would also mean that Superman would have to be Clark's idea only, not Jor's, which is preferable to me. With the extra screen time, they could spend more time with the Kents and on Clark coming up with the idea of becoming superman.

I can agree with that. I thought the Krypton scenes were awesome but they could have trimmed some of it out for sure. Same could have been said with the Metropolis fight and spend that time more into the development of his younger years.


Though the beats would have been redone when it comes to his origin, to me, it was still necessary. I think a dropping of the ball, if anything when it came to the origin, was how they excluded how the Kents found his scoutship the day he was found. With Snyder's visuals, that could have been an amazing scene.

Another issue is the Codex. Though it was important to the film, it felt like a cheesy crutch at the time of my first few viewings. With much emphasis on the Codex brought the movies most glaring plot holes at times.

 

[MrsKent26]

The one crtiiscm I have of other criticsms though is I wish people would layoff Goyer sometimes, sure his scripting isn't a 100% solid but why can't anyone credit him for the good ge did with this film? He wrote sone amazing stuff in Man of Steel. I think people often overlook his contributions to the Dark Knight trilogy aswell.

Even as a critic of Goyer, I agree with this. He does good work sometimes and it's not mentioned nearly as often as his screw ups. There were some great moments in MOS, like that cute "Welcome to the planet" bit at the end with Lois and Clark. Solid writing there.

Lois was shoehorned into scenes for plot reason IMO. why did zod want her on the ship? The less said about the hand held camera scenes the better.

Regarding Lois, I agree with this to some extent. The reasoning behind her being in Zod's ship was shaky at best. However, I was forgiving of that because she was awesome when she was on the ship and it led to a classic and adorable moment when Clark rescued her from the falling ship. The acting from both was perfect there: She was breathless and frazzled and he was calm and comforting. It was made even better by the fact that MOS didn't just feature Clark rescuing Lois, but her rescuing him at times as well (once on Zod's ship, she was actually quite helpful).

This is mainly why I didn't think Lois felt "shoehorned" overall in MOS. Yes, there were a couple odd moments in which she got somewhere by mysterious means, but once she was there, it led to good character moments (the scene of her comforting Clark post-Zod was a standout). The scenes of her actually doing some investigative journalism were good as well.

I'm hoping for some snappy, clever dialogue for her in BvS, as Goyer couldn't quite manage that in MOS.

I enjoyed Russell Crowe's Jor-El, but I totally agree. Especially about too much time being spent on Krypton .

I enjoyed Crowe's Jor in the first Krypton-based scene, but didn't need or enjoy seeing his AI afterwards. That screen time could have been put to much better use.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Off the bat, I love MoS, its a fantastic film and a great Superman film for me, a way back 'in' to a modern take on the character.

Snyder is a visceral led director not an emotionally led director, some film makers will give you a choice or route into and around their story, Snyder merely says, here you are, here is what I'm giving you, take it or leave it, no bad thing when you are as creatively vibrant with the lens and story telling is 'functional', something that aids the CBM genre.

He is not a 'deep', philisophical story teller, but yet gives meaning of depth through his choice of shots rather than the dialogue or scene building.

In short, he's an effcient film maker, with great eye for detail and shot structure, just not story structure but you could argue for that reason his actual project choices play to all his strengths and his weaknesses are compensated as a result. No director can be the 'best' in all areas of the skills required to direct, it's a painfully difficult task, but in the genre he works in, he has the required drive, vision and visual understanding to make his films work.

 

[The Guard]

I don't understand some of the complaints about Snyder with relation to story content/structure and MAN OF STEEL. He didn't write the movie. We don't know how much creative control he ultimately had, aside from visuals. And the issues people had with the film storywise aren't things you can exactly edit around.

 

[BH/HHH]

Even as a critic of Goyer, I agree with this. He does good work sometimes and it's not mentioned nearly as often as his screw ups. There were some great moments in MOS, like that cute "Welcome to the planet" bit at the end with Lois and Clark. Solid writing there.

My absolute favourite moment is "ou can save her Kal, you can save all of them".

 

[Mandon Knight]

His shot list, his shot selection has to be atune to the writing, whether he has written it himself or not.

 

[MrsKent26]

Though the beats would have been redone when it comes to his origin, to me, it was still necessary. I think a dropping of the ball, if anything when it came to the origin, was how they excluded how the Kents found his scoutship the day he was found. With Snyder's visuals, that could have been an amazing scene.

Another issue is the Codex. Though it was important to the film, it felt like a cheesy crutch at the time of my first few viewings. With much emphasis on the Codex brought the movies most glaring plot holes at times.

I absolutely agree about a scene showing the Kents finding Clark's ship. I really wish they had done a scene like that. I always think the idea of a kindly farm couple coming across an alien ship, with a baby in it of all things, and choosing to keep that baby is so beautiful.

Also agree about the Codex. Too much time spent on that. I would have preferred they keep the Krypton scenes to simply Lara and Jor sending Clark to Earth/saying goodbye to their son before they perish.

 

[Tra-El]

I'm one of those fans that actually didn't have too many problems, if any, with Goyer ' s written dialogue. There were some hiccups here and there, especially with Jor-El ' s dialogue in the beginning, but I didn't think the dialogue is as bad as some make it out to be. There are many equally as good lines than there were bad, as some say.

 

[Mandon Knight]

The cutting of the ship leaving and arriving to being on the fishing boat was a real 'mis-step' for me, (one of the few in the film), as others have said, the Kents finding Kal is SO important and integral, I felt it needed that, the v quick cut felt emotionally we were 'robbed' of that moment, the moment of real 'first contact' which ironically Goyer kept banging on about being central to this version.

 

[BH/HHH]

Oh actually blogs the way the shop cuts to the boat, that's one of the things I like about the non linear aspect even though I'd have preferred a linear one