Contest of Marvels II Thread 2

[kytrigger]

Rebuttal

Lord Templar vs. Hydro-Man - Rebuttals

How would his teleportation 'trick' be limited by the location, he has shown the ability to teleport on-spot, at will, coming from nowhere to right where he wanted to go. He is also intangible and can pass through solid matter.

Because the entire place is under water and he is limited to ONLY that place. Going intangible won't help either as he has to hold his breath while doing so. I'm not syain ghe can't teleport, I'm saying that every single place he is allowed to teleport is filled with water so the point is moot.

Also, his telekinesis can hurt Hyrdo-Man in the sense that he can break him up by repelling him, limiting the strength of his attacks.

That wouldn't really hurt Hydro-man. It may slow him down, but it wouldn't put him out fo the fight in any way. Plus, this wouldn't affect him at all if the place is submerged in water seeing as how Hydro-man can draw on all teh water surrounding him easily.

He still has to eventually attack, or respond to attack, so this knowledge is pointless.

But his attack doesn't have to be head-on. Attacking with the ocean attacks everythign at once. he in no way has to be anywhere near Templar to do this.

Again, those same avatars are intangible, they would pass through the water without fail.

again, they still have to breathe, and can't do so while intangible. The second they have to solidify again, they are screwed.

Again, teleportation, intangibility, immense energy blasts, he has many ways of getting out of a mass of water.

again, no he doesn't. And how would energy blasts work anyway? it's the freaking ocean coming down on him. That isn't somethign that will go away by energy blasts.

I alread said how the teleportation and intagibility won't work also.

How about 'outside', there is an outside on the island, just to let you know.

The location is the Raft, not Rykers. The raft is the underground levels, so teleporting outside should be off limits.

But just in case that is overruled, so what if he can teleport outside? He still has NO WAY of hurting Hydro-man once he has bonded with the entire ocean. He will be impossible to find, and even more difficult to hit. Hydro-man will still be able to have the ocean "attack" Templar, but Templar has no way of hurting Hydro-man. It's a location where Hydro-man is basically invincible.

If Templar can teleport outside, then this battle could go on for days, but Templar would eventually become too weak to do anything, whereas Hydro-man has unlimtied resources and energy and would be having the time of his life.

Winner- Hydro-man

 

[primemover]

Lord Templar vs. Hydro-Man: final rebuttal

Yes it will be ab factor. Hydro-man in no way has to face Templar to even win. LIke i said, he will be tearing up the Raft and completely flooding it. He doesn't in any way have to actually be near Templar to do this, he just has to be somewhat close to water, which he will be at all times.

gettign away? The entire complex is under water. he has nowehere to go if the entire place is flooded. His forcefield might give him a small bubble of air, but that woulnd't last long at all. Templar is still human and he needs to breathe. Teleporting is pointless since eveywhere in the battleground is underwater. Phasing is also pointless, since you have to hold your breath to phase.

And there is a big difference between being protected by a forcefield that doesn't allow someone to fly through you, and breathing. Yeah, the forcefield will keep him from getting wet, but it doesn't create an unlimited air supply. He would run out of air in a few minutes, and then be screwed.

When they're intangible, they are still electrical though, so they would still be affected, and even if not, phasers can't breathe when they are intangible so this would only help them for a short amount of time. Couple that with the fact that their mobility will be crap since they are underwater and they won't be able to do much. You still really haven't given a way for these avatars or Templar to really find Hydro-man once teh entire place is flooded either. I mean they are looking for a water being in an ocean, that's not that easy to find.

And you are overstating their abilities to not drown. He has nowhere to teleport. He must stay inside the Raft or else it is a ring out. Everywhere in the Raft will be flooded. Teleporting outside into the sky is a ring out.

Not only this, but you have really shown no way that the avatars can find Hydro-man once the place is flooded. it would be almost impoddible to do seeing as how he is water himself. Take this and the fact that all teh water they are completely surrounded by he controls and they have a major problem. Trying to find him would be hard enough without having millions of gallons of water constantly attacking them from all sides.

First of all, this is incorrect about the teleporting outside, read Pheadra's post about JH's ruling right here, outside of the raft and around the island is allowed.

Secondly, this is not a normal 'human', he's a high level mutant with powers at extreme levels, including those that allow him to take face on blasts from some of the marvel universes most powerful characters, including an ability to keep photon from traveling through or into his body. He has a closed system, which like other character allows him to travel through medium and not breathe for extended periods of time. If anybody is overstating something, it's his ability to asphyxiate comparable to normal human standards.

The intangible avatars would have no problems traveling through the water due to their intangibility. If they can pass through solid matter like they have shown, water would pose no problem, including their ability to fly.

Also, the electric pulses that come from these avatars would cause his water to disperse due to causing him pain, so they would no longer be under water. If he controls all the water, by your own admission, then this would be a valid and quality tactic.

While Hydro-Man is busy flooding the raft he could send out his intangible avatars to pester Hydro-Man with their electric impulses causing him to revert his present course and attack in another way, leading him to do a more direct attack and Lord Templar and his avatars hurting them with Templar and his avatars energy blasts, his telekinesis to keep him away, and the electric avatars to subdue him.

Winner: Lord Templar

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Nightcrawler vs Gideon

He'll know the basic 8 level story thing.

I disagree, as you can figure. He won't be aware of hardly anything.

- Count Nefaria isn't there now, but he was.

He was; but, when he was there, he had no interaction with the X-Men in their comics. Nor, did the X-Men have any interaction with The Raft. Show proof.

The Illuminati is actually a pretty far cry from Civil War. They first appeared in New Avengers #7, which is in July 2005, about a full year before this contest started. Beyond the follow-up one-shot that tied them a little into CW, they have had no real contact with that. So that doesn't really hold up. Xavier would make sure to have info about places such as the Raft in the X-Files for use.

Yes, but that one-shot showed that The Illuminati broke up gradually long before the events of Avengers Disassembled. The members started to argue and disagree; so, their sharing of information really disintergrated. And, the discussion of the information of a prison would probably not even cross their minds. They were dealing with planet-threatning or U.S. threating problems, not a prison that was hardly ever mentioned in comics. Again, the X-Men show no connection to The Raft. One word again: Proof.

- As I've noted, I seriously doubt Gideon will know much of anything about Nightcrawler.
- Nightcrawler will know to keep his distance till the right moment.
- It's a pretty well lit place, but not if Nightcrawler can take out the lights.

-I am 99.99% positive Gideon would have information about Nightcrawler. I've read every X-Men comic except maybe a few of the earliest issues. Nightcrawler makes his presence very well known. (Even looking at one issue, God Loves, Man Kills; Nightcrawler is very well present in this very famous story.) And, if for some strange reason Gideon didn't know (which is a very unlikely chance), once Nightcrawler gets close enough, he'll know everything right away.

-Once Nightcrawler is close enough, Gideon will know. That's all it takes. And, as noted, even if you try the "lucky shot" theory, nothing Nightcrawler can do will hurt someone as strong as Gideon.

-Nightcrawler isn't an expert in electronics. I'm not worried about him taking out the lights. (Plus, he wouldn't teleport into an area he hadn't been in before. I'm not worried at all.)

There's nothing in that biography that suggests such a thing. If you can back up your statement with issue numbers though, I'll gladly believe you.

No problem at all. I quote myself from Round 1:

If you go to New Warriors #19, without any effort, he gains the powers of Justice (or Marvel Boy), Firestar, Silhoutte, Nova, Night Thrasher, Speedball, and Namorita. And, when the bio says he defeated them with ease (using their own powers against him), they didn't even lay a scratch on him. He held them captive, and would obviously have access to any of these abilities. This doesn't even include his battles with X-Force and whatever abilities he's gained from them.

To me, I'm more worried about Justice, Firestar, and Nova than Nightcrawler. This is just one example. We're not even touching on his appearances in X-Force.

I wouldn't put much faith in those power grids, as they've been notoriously wrong before. There's also nothing to compare them with, so they're pretty useless. Beyond that, his fighting skills have shown to be among the best of the X-Men, and his strength increases with the increase of his teleportation. Like I've said, he can knock out grown men with one punch, and rivals Rogue levels of strength when really firing up the teleportation.

It's been determined that the best source of information for a character's powers is directly from Marvel's Official Handbooks. Many like to dispute the websites; but, there is a reason the handbooks say "Official." I am providing facts and proof to back up many of my claims. This is the ultimate source in facts; to dispute that is to claim anything someone brings up is probably false information.

You're exaggerating the sabbatical thing. That was really only a development during Claremont's second run for a while there, together with Austen's, but most of the time, he's been dedicated to the cause. A little prayer here and there, but otherwise he's out there with the X-Men, and often training. I'd also like to know what more could be done with those powers if they obviously haven't been shown to have that much more potential beside an increase in finesse.

These characters are constantly learning new powers throughout the years. (In fact, Nightcrawler has been very undeveloped in advancing his powers.) Just as Emma did with Iceman, it's possible there are things that Nightcrawler isn't aware of.

1) Gideon doesn't get the chance.
2) I've stated a few times now that his strength increases with the teleportation. I also don't put much faith in the 2/7 mark.

It's official. What more can be said? This comes directly from Marvel.

"Constantly worrying"? C'mon Phaed. We both know that you're exaggerating the sabbatical thing here. Like I said, it's been sparingly, and really only made a comeuppance with Claremont's second run and the priesthood. After Austen that was quietly dropped again. The effect is also negilible.

I'm not exaggerating anything. Nightcrawler disappeared for a time after Excalibur, and then even during his recent series, we saw his struggle with his beliefs. Throughout reading about Nightcrawler since he first appeared, he has constantly struggled with his beliefs, appearance, and place in the world. I'm not exaggerating anything. (Plus, since this is the recent Nightcrawler, these events are part of Nightcrawler's history.)

Beside the fact that Nightcrawler has taken a few hits before, he also still has the edge of surprise. He's also not giving Gideon the chance to strike. Nightcrawler isn't adverse to a little hit-and-run tactic.

Both characters will be aware of the other. I've shown how little of a surprise Nightcrawler will have. Plus, unless it's a very familiar place, Nightcrawler won't risk teleporting to places he's not familiar with.

Even though Storm petitioned to Bush for the XSE to be instated. Beside that, it also gives a little more credence to the argument, since the Raft is also a UN-run facility (it's run by SHIELD, which is a UN organization). Countries outside of America have shown a greater willingness into working with mutants, and SHIELD hasn't had much trouble with it either.

Everyone is always saying for me to provide proof, which I generally do. So, show me proof where SHIELD is providing information to the XSE. And, it's not so much that they have a willingness to work with mutants; they just want mutants to police their own people. In many, many appearances with mutant-related groups policing their own, they show that our government and people within that government simply don't trust mutants, even the XSE.

Again, a bit of a stretch. The Brotherhood wouldn't keep files, and Gideon can't interact with anybody else. That makes him dependant on his own files. Ones that I severely doubt will have info on Nightcrawler, but even in extreme case they do, would have little to no info. Beyond the search for that missing External, there's no reason Gideon would be interested in some weird little European team that spent more time in alternate futures than they did on the mainland.

He was involved in so many organizations, and has been around for a very long time. (But, he didn't make himself that well known, as his appearance in New Warriors showed.) Plus, Nightcrawler was a very well-known X-Man. Being on Excalibur doesn't mean that Gideon wouldn't know about his involvement with the X-Men previous. Plus, remember why Nightcrawler and Kitty went to Excalibur in the first place. The X-Men led many to believe they were dead; thus, allowing them to work in secret. If they wanted to be known as dead, that means they were pretty well known by various organizations. They even let Kitty and Nightcrawler believe they were dead for some time.

- Nightcrawler has a definitive prep-time advantage.

Nope.

- Nightcrawler would know the safe distance away from Gideon.

Nope. Tell me, what's the safe distance? Most of Gideon's time as an External was very secretive, and as we don't have that information, I highly doubt Nightcrawler would know.

- Nightcrawler is quite a bit powerful, as reading of comics would show. The power grid underestimates his powers. He regularly spars with Wolverine, and ranks among the top dogs of the X-Men hand-to-hand combatants, being a master swordsman and knowing his nerve pinches (something Gideon would have no defense against either).

Hand to hand combat is 3/7. (Now, he's Spock, too.)

I've also uncovered some information that suggests that Gideon isn't that powerful at all really. Not only do 90% of his appearances consist of him operating behind the scenes (and I've checked about 95% of them).

Which is more proof that Nightcrawler will know less about Gideon than is supposed.

List of appearances here. In that same threat you'll notice an interesting fact:
"I don't believe it was shown that he could duplicate Night Thrasher's armor. Dwayne took his armor off and kicked his butt without it, so we never got a chance to see. The next day he showed Gideon up in the business world as well, taking a merger away from him. So, yeah. I'd say that qualifies as him being a major enemy."
Now I no longer have my New Warriors issues, but I'd like to see if someone with the Night Trasher mini can verify this. Night Trasher is significantly weaker than Nightcrawler.

This is just bad. You are quoting a guy with 99 posts on the comixfan forum. I provide Official proof and I get told it's not sufficient. Plus, I give examples of Gideon instantly copying powers from New Warriors. The above is an extremely bad example to use. I'm so astounded, I'm practically speechless. I really can't ever imagine myself using an unknown person's post on a website as proof of what I'm trying to prove.

EDIT: I wanted to edit in a comment about the above example. I get what you're trying to say, that you believe Gideon isn't that powerful IF Night Thrasher in this one appearance bested Gideon without his armor. I think what got me wound up about this is the way you said "fact" in describing a person's post that should not be considered fact without proof. Even you state you'd like to know if what happened really did. Plus, I did show fact that Gideon beat all of the New Warriors in New Warriors #19. Obviously, the person above wanted to point out that Gideon isn't able to copy someone's battle armor, which might actually be true. This is stated as something he can do in Wikipedia; but, Wikipedia isn't the best source for information. It's just, battle armor will not come into question with this fight.

Also, as the list shows, Gideon has appeared in quite a few comics:

APPEARANCES:
Gambit (1st series) #1-2
Gambit (3rd series) #14
New Mutants #98-99
New Mutants Annual #7
New Warriors (1st series) #19
New Warriors (1st series) Annual #1
Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. (2nd series) #46-47
Night Thrasher: Four Control #3
Spider-Man #16
Uncanny X-Men Annual #15
X-Factor (1st series) #6
X-Force #1, 3, 5, 10, 12-13, 15, 20, 23, 36-37, 52-53

There are actually a few more than these, as I saw the number of appearances to be about 38, if I remember correctly. There are quite a few characters in this contest with a lot less appearances than Gideon.

Either way, Gideon hasn't done anything all that impressive, besides his victory over the still rather inexperienced New Warriors. Getting beat by Night Trasher nicely offsets that though.

Defeating the entire New Warriors in issue #19 is pretty damn impressive to me, especially considering some of the names on that team, Nova being just one of them.

Basically, I understand the strategy in trying to get Nightcrawler to beat a character like Gideon. In football, we call it the "Hail Mary." It's belittling Gideon, hyping Nightcrawler, and making suppositions to base the claims on.

Winner = Gideon

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Nightcrawler vs Gideon

I disagree, as you can figure. He won't be aware of hardly anything.

He was; but, when he was there, he had no interaction with the X-Men in their comics. Nor, did the X-Men have any interaction with The Raft. Show proof.

I will freely admit that the Raft hasn't made an appearance in the X-Men comics. I'd like to see you admit that Gideon has never met Nightcrawler and has never been shown to know anything about him.

Yes, but that one-shot showed that The Illuminati broke up gradually long before the events of Avengers Disassembled. The members started to argue and disagree; so, their sharing of information really disintergrated. And, the discussion of the information of a prison would probably not even cross their minds. They were dealing with planet-threatning or U.S. threating problems, not a prison that was hardly ever mentioned in comics. Again, the X-Men show no connection to The Raft. One word again: Proof.

Wrong. The point where they really disagreed was about sending the Hulk into space. The Raft existed before that, and they pretty much made sure to divulge information about most of anything that's important. The building of the Raft, a super-villain prison, would be important.

-I am 99.99% positive Gideon would have information about Nightcrawler. I've read every X-Men comic except maybe a few of the earliest issues. Nightcrawler makes his presence very well known. (Even looking at one issue, God Loves, Man Kills; Nightcrawler is very well present in this very famous story.) And, if for some strange reason Gideon didn't know (which is a very unlikely chance), once Nightcrawler gets close enough, he'll know everything right away.

Count me in for the other 00.01% then. Did you forget the fact that the X-Men were mostly a secret outlaw team, whose appearances were often kept from the public? Nightcrawler was not a well-known X-Man. You're basing this on our perception, not those of the characters.

-Once Nightcrawler is close enough, Gideon will know. That's all it takes. And, as noted, even if you try the "lucky shot" theory, nothing Nightcrawler can do will hurt someone as strong as Gideon.

Of course, the surprise is gone the moment he attacks. Of course, Gideon also won't be able to do anything about it.

-Nightcrawler isn't an expert in electronics. I'm not worried about him taking out the lights. (Plus, he wouldn't teleport into an area he hadn't been in before. I'm not worried at all.)

Actually, he's a pretty damn good mechanic and knows his ways around electronics. Also, the "I'm not worried"-thing belies insecurity.

No problem at all. I quote myself from Round 1:
If you go to New Warriors #19, without any effort, he gains the powers of Justice (or Marvel Boy), Firestar, Silhoutte, Nova, Night Thrasher, Speedball, and Namorita. And, when the bio says he defeated them with ease (using their own powers against him), they didn't even lay a scratch on him. He held them captive, and would obviously have access to any of these abilities. This doesn't even include his battles with X-Force and whatever abilities he's gained from them.

Did you even read New Warriors #19? Yes, he defeats them with relative ease. They were also in each others' way and he was much more experienced. Attacking Gideon with a multitude of powers helps him. A single mutant has a much better chance.

We're not even touching on his appearances in X-Force.

The ones where he was mostly behind the scenes, scheming?

It's been determined that the best source of information for a character's powers is directly from Marvel's Official Handbooks. Many like to dispute the websites; but, there is a reason the handbooks say "Official." I am providing facts and proof to back up many of my claims. This is the ultimate source in facts; to dispute that is to claim anything someone brings up is probably false information.

No, Phaed, and you should know this: The best source of information for a character's powers is directly from the comics. I'm not saying you're so much as bringing in false information as that you believe it and are hung up on it.

These characters are constantly learning new powers throughout the years. (In fact, Nightcrawler has been very undeveloped in advancing his powers.) Just as Emma did with Iceman, it's possible there are things that Nightcrawler isn't aware of.

I usually find these kinds of arguments useless if the opponent can bring up a way in which 'Crawler's powers can be used differently.

It's official. What more can be said? This comes directly from Marvel.

Comics come directly from Marvel.

I'm not exaggerating anything. Nightcrawler disappeared for a time after Excalibur, and then even during his recent series, we saw his struggle with his beliefs. Throughout reading about Nightcrawler since he first appeared, he has constantly struggled with his beliefs, appearance, and place in the world. I'm not exaggerating anything. (Plus, since this is the recent Nightcrawler, these events are part of Nightcrawler's history.)

He actually went back to the X-Men almost right away. Struggling with your beliefs doesn't mean you're taking sabbaticals all the time. X-Men comics have regularly shown him training despite these sabbaticals of yours.

Both characters will be aware of the other. I've shown how little of a surprise Nightcrawler will have. Plus, unless it's a very familiar place, Nightcrawler won't risk teleporting to places he's not familiar with.

True, but these are long open spaces. He's got room to manouvre.

Everyone is always saying for me to provide proof, which I generally do. So, show me proof where SHIELD is providing information to the XSE. And, it's not so much that they have a willingness to work with mutants; they just want mutants to police their own people. In many, many appearances with mutant-related groups policing their own, they show that our government and people within that government simply don't trust mutants, even the XSE.

They don't trust them, but they will provide info when necessary. If the XSE needs info on the Raft, they will get it.

He was involved in so many organizations, and has been around for a very long time. (But, he didn't make himself that well known, as his appearance in New Warriors showed.) Plus, Nightcrawler was a very well-known X-Man. Being on Excalibur doesn't mean that Gideon wouldn't know about his involvement with the X-Men previous. Plus, remember why Nightcrawler and Kitty went to Excalibur in the first place. The X-Men led many to believe they were dead; thus, allowing them to work in secret. If they wanted to be known as dead, that means they were pretty well known by various organizations. They even let Kitty and Nightcrawler believe they were dead for some time.

- Again, the well-known thing, not true.
- The X-Men faked their death as to fool their foes, the Marauders.

Nope. Tell me, what's the safe distance? Most of Gideon's time as an External was very secretive, and as we don't have that information, I highly doubt Nightcrawler would know.

You obviously don't know that either. The X-Force members would've provided such information though.

Hand to hand combat is 3/7. (Now, he's Spock, too.)

One las time: comics trump handbooks. It's really disappointing to see you so hung up on the Handbook.

I will debate the rest when I can home.

WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER

 

[Phaedrus45]

REBUTTAL: Nightcrawler vs Gideon
I will freely admit that the Raft hasn't made an appearance in the X-Men comics. I'd like to see you admit that Gideon has never met Nightcrawler and has never been shown to know anything about him.

Actually, I've never said that Gideon has met Nightcrawler. What I've said is that Nightcrawler is one of the most well known mutants, that when the X-Men supposedly died, him and kitty were the two that supposedly survived, and that it's not hard to find information on Nightcrawler. Also, Gideon's past ties, especially with the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, shows he has ties to the X-Men's world. AND, as a business man, he knows to get information that might be of use further down the line. IF Gideon was facing a much lesser known mutant (or one who appeared after his death), then I would admit that he wouldn't know them. I have no doubt he would have information on Nightcrawler, especially with Nightcrawler's high profile status.

Wrong. The point where they really disagreed was about sending the Hulk into space. The Raft existed before that, and they pretty much made sure to divulge information about most of anything that's important. The building of the Raft, a super-villain prison, would be important.

This is a very large supposition based on one comic. Here is the information on the Illuminati:

The group formed at some time in the aftermath of the Kree-Skrull War. Iron Man realized that each of the individual members had information about this beforehand, and could have collectively stopped it. He brings together the Illuminati with the Black Panther in Wakanda, and proposes that they form a government of superhumans. Namor refuses, on the grounds that too many superheroes are violent outsiders (such as Hawkeye and Quicksilver, both former criminals). Xavier refuses on the grounds that mutants are already feared and hated, and if Iron Man thinks he can fight this with iconic superheroes, it'll result in heroes being feared and hated as much as mutants. Dr. Strange refuses on the grounds that too many heroes are anti-establishment and that the group Iron Man has assembled to form a governing body would not be 'anti-establishment', but rather a form of 'counter-establishment'. The group does, however, agree to meet to exchange information regularly. The only member present who refuses is the Black Panther, who fears the association will end in less than altruistic actions.

There are a few key factors in this quote, the most important fact is that these people didn't share their knowledge with the people around them. (Like with Reed not sharing with the rest of the Fantastic Four.) Also, it shows that Xavier says how mutants are still feared and hated; which is why the government wouldn't want this information given to mutants.

Count me in for the other 00.01% then. Did you forget the fact that the X-Men were mostly a secret outlaw team, whose appearances were often kept from the public? Nightcrawler was not a well-known X-Man. You're basing this on our perception, not those of the characters.

If they weren't that public, then why did they want everyone to think they were dead, even Nightcrawler and Kitty Pryde? Why does everyone who comes into contact with them seem to know who they are? Remember, Nightcrawler even appeared in other comics besides X-Men, like Marvel Team-Up. (Plus, there is an old saying, "Perception is reality.")

Did you even read New Warriors #19? Yes, he defeats them with relative ease. They were also in each others' way and he was much more experienced. Attacking Gideon with a multitude of powers helps him. A single mutant has a much better chance.

Then, how does the New Warriors fight well enough in issues 1-18, but come this one issue, they show their inexperience? Remember, they fought Terrax, Juggernaut, and Sphinx before this battle. Many of the members are very experienced, like Nova.

No, Phaed, and you should know this: The best source of information for a character's powers is directly from the comics.

Actually, I would say this: The best source of information for a character's powers is directly from the Official Handbooks. The best source for proof of the powers abilities is from the comics. (For example, if you don't mind, I'll use Darkhawk. The Official Handbook lets me know of Darkhawk's energy blast; but, going through the comics let me know how effective those powers are. In regards to Gideon, the Handbook lets me know of Gideon's ability to steal the powers of a superpowered being within his proximity; New Warriors #19 showed me how instantaneous those powers are.) As you know, the websites we visit many times has some bad data. But, the most current Handbook is obviously better than those websites. Beyond that, we go to the comics for proof of powers are how they are exactly used.

They don't trust them, but they will provide info when necessary. If the XSE needs info on the Raft, they will get it.

I highlighted the key word in your sentence, "when necessary." I'll agree with that, but the XSE has never been shown to interact with The Raft. And, during prep-time, Nightcrawler would not be able to go to the government and say, "Ummm, I need information on the Raft, because I'm involved in this secret battle between some of our world's finest characters."

- Again, the well-known thing, not true.
- The X-Men faked their death as to fool their foes, the Marauders.

Remember, they wanted to fool more than their foes. They even fooled their friends.

You obviously don't know that either. The X-Force members would've provided such information though.

But, the fact is we don't know, so there is no proof they are exactly aware of the distance. And, I highly doubt Gideon said, "Could you please get a little closer to me...my powers don't work when you are so far away."

One las time: comics trump handbooks. It's really disappointing to see you so hung up on the Handbook.

You know I was discussing the describing of powers. When finding the description of powers, many of us use the websites; but, then those websites tend to come into question. The best source of information that describes a character's powers is from the Handbooks. If you want to back up the claim further, you can go to the comics. But, as we know, certain character's powers are further enhanced in one comic and lesser in another. (Wolverine's a good example of this.) So, sometimes the Handbook is a better source of information, especially given that certain comics have made certain characters better or worse than they truly are. (Now, I'm thinking of the recent Moon Knight comics, where Taskmaster was made to look like a real coward and easy pushover. In that case, even I would not use that comic as an example if battling that character.)

Sure, nothing is foolproof; but, one of the purpose of the Handbooks, especially recently with many writers basicially re-writing characters, is to bring cohesion to the characters. And, I'll provide the information; it's up to the voters to take it as they want.

(I'll await the rest of your rebuttal; but, as I'm noticing, we're reaching the point where we're just going around and round. I'm probably at the point where I'll leave everything up to the voters. If I notice something that doesn't repeat what I've already said, then take my non-response as knowing I've already covered my view on it, as with the Handbook argument.)

 

[Harlekin]

REBUTTAL: Nightcrawler vs Gideon

I've no problem with ending the debate around this time. I also caught myself writing REBUTTAL: Harlekin vs Phaed, so that should say enough. I also want to note (without wasting quote space on it), that I did indeed want the Night Trasher thing verified, although I see no reason for it not to be true. I'm going to stop debating stuff like prep-time since we're going around in circles (although I'll point out one more thing about Nightcrawler's "high profile status").

There are actually a few more than these, as I saw the number of appearances to be about 38, if I remember correctly.

You'll find ComiXfan is pretty accurate when it comes to appearances.

Defeating the entire New Warriors in issue #19 is pretty damn impressive to me, especially considering some of the names on that team, Nova being just one of them.

Nova was powerful but nowhere near as powerful as he is now. He was also pretty much a rookie.

This is a very large supposition based on one comic. Here is the information on the Illuminati:

Did you read these comics? I see no reason why Xavier wouldn't incorporate some aspects of the information into his files, which senior members like Nightcrawler would have access too.

If they weren't that public, then why did they want everyone to think they were dead, even Nightcrawler and Kitty Pryde? Why does everyone who comes into contact with them seem to know who they are? Remember, Nightcrawler even appeared in other comics besides X-Men, like Marvel Team-Up. (Plus, there is an old saying, "Perception is reality.")

I'm going to assume you've read Fall of the Mutants, and I'm entirely too tired to actually look up the specific quote, but as Storm says, the entire idea is for them to covertly strike at their opponents. They were trying to do this before Fall of... but with their "actual" death, they could really accomplish this. Their foes included telepaths, so they couldn't inform others. It's why they even mindwiped Havok a few times before this stage of their death fakeage.

Then, how does the New Warriors fight well enough in issues 1-18, but come this one issue, they show their inexperience? Remember, they fought Terrax, Juggernaut, and Sphinx before this battle. Many of the members are very experienced, like Nova.

They were always inexperienced. Members like Justice had only recently gotten to get a fix on their powers (he was still suffering from frequent nosebleeds and headaches), and the rest of the team sometimes had trouble working together. Thanks to some nice strategy from Night Trasher, they were able to beat some foes, true. I also don't recall their defeat of Terrax to be as devastating. Sphinx and Nova have been archnemesises for a while now. They really weren't that good a team during that time.

As you know, the websites we visit many times has some bad data. But, the most current Handbook is obviously better than those websites. Beyond that, we go to the comics for proof of powers are how they are exactly used.

I disagree. Reputable sites like UXM and ComixFan (of which Eric J. Moreels wrote pretty much all of the X-Men biographies, although I doubt his involvement in the powergrids) are sometimes not only more reliable, but serve as the basis for these handbooks. Besides that, comics will always be the best source.

[quoteRemember, they wanted to fool more than their foes. They even fooled their friends.[/quote]
So that they could fool their foes. The Marauders counted among them Malice, who was a very dangerous opponent, and other foes were often telepathic. Letting their friends in on the information would have blown their cover. They basically state this a few times during the Australian era.

Sure, nothing is foolproof; but, one of the purpose of the Handbooks, especially recently with many writers basicially re-writing characters, is to bring cohesion to the characters. And, I'll provide the information; it's up to the voters to take it as they want.

True, but it just pains me to see the powergrids appear, since they've been so notoriously wrong in the past (surely you remember the absolutely horrid grids from the Marvel website of yesteryear?), so I prefer to keep them out of debates. They aren't that reliable.

By now the debate's really stopped being about who wins and has started to become a pulling contest between us. With the onset of voting, I probably won't respond anymore (also got a long day of school ahead of tomorrow).

WINNER=NIGHTCRAWLER

 

[Phaedrus45]

Yes, that old Marvel Directory proved very outdated. And, I do use the power grids; because, for me, they give me an idea of how strong one person is compared to another.

If I get a chance, I'll dig up my old Night Thrasher comic. (Although, finding these comics are pretty tough for me; especially since I've been getting ready for vacation. I've been looking for my Marvel Legacy 1990's edition, as it might have Gideon in it; but, haven't had any luck so far.) I'll give you my opinion of that comic, though, if what he describes did happen.

I'm thinking if you don't have prep-time and can surprise Gideon before he can use any templates, a few characters might be able to defeat him. Night Thrasher isn't really superpowered; so, it actually might benefit him to go one-on-one with the element of surprise. If Gideon is just in a normal mode, not powered up, not fighting someone with powers, it can benefit that other character. (Plus, any writer can write a character a certain way. I'm still peeved that the current crappy Moon Knight series made a mockery out of Taskmaster. To me, that was a writer taking a great villian and taking him completely out of character.)

 

[Phaedrus45]

Oh, and I'm done with the debate, too. I'll only add something if I can find that issue for you.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Voting May Begin!!!

 

[Phaedrus45]

*X-Cutioner

*Carrion - (Great debate. I was voting for Colossus; but, revealing that Colossus' armor is organic really swayed me.)

*Lord Templar - (Wow. This was my most difficult decision this week, I believe.)

*Gideon

 

[wiegeabo]

X-Cutioner
Carrion
Lord Templar (too hard to decide. I'm still not sure about this vote)
Gideon (It hurts to vote against Kurt)

 

[Hellstormer]

Hydro Man
Gideon (I love Nightcrawler and I'm still mad at Gideon but...)
X-Cutioner
Carrion

 

[kytrigger]

Gideo
Hydro-man
X-cutioner
Carrion-the organic steel thing swayed me

 

[Harlekin]

X-Cutioner
Carrion - Wow. Debate swayed me.
Lord Templar - Nicely debated though.
Nightcrawler

 

[Midnight Ice]

X-Cutioner
Colossus(tough one, but it has been shown that Carrion's power isn't exactly "instant" on powered individuals)
Lord Templar
Nightcrawler

 

[hippy fascist]

X-Cutioner (WIEG's pick)

Carrion (Colossus is a hand to hand specialist, with his skin being ORGANIC steel [which I would never have thought of by the way, go WIEG! ] there's very little chance of him winning this one. Gotta play the averages)

Nightcrawler (people always underestimate nightcrawler but once he goes full on there are few better hand to hand combatants in the marvel U as he is completely impossible to predict while teleporting at high speed. Read Ultimate X-men annual(though not cannon for this contest) to see how effective a teleportation power can be up close)

Lord Templar (There was only one way I was going to vote against hydroman on this one and that is if his opponent hooked onto the idea of using an electrical charge...BOOYAH! Nicely done prime )

 

[primemover]

Fusion
Colossus (Colossus would power through the touch and rip Carrions arms off)
Lord Templar
Nightcrawler (having the ability to teleport vs. knowing how to use it in combat is a big factor here)

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Lord templar - Electricity
Colossus - the organic steel would be slower to degenerate then normal flesh and Spiderman did survive the touch long enough to allow me to think Colossus could tear carrion apart
Nightcrawler - sword and teleportation means instantaneous win unless you are regenrative or incredibly durable.
X-cutioner

 

[Phaedrus45]

Final Results:

X-Cutioner beat Fushion 8-1
Carrion beat Colossus 6-3
Lord Templar beat Hydroman 7-2
Nightcrawler beat Gideon 5-4

 

[Phaedrus45]

BRACKET 3,

Match 13:

Black Tarantula (ZOKEN) bio

vs.

Surge (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio

Match 14:

Belasco (PHAEDRUS45) bio

vs.

Baron Mordo (HARLEKIN) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

BRACKET 4,

Match 13:

Morg (DARTHPHERE) bio

vs.

Elektra (HIPPY FASCIST) bio

Match 14:

Firelord (DARTHPHERE) bio

vs.

Wolverine (ZOKEN) bio

 

[Phaedrus45]

LOCATION: The Vault

Several years ago, the United States tried to solve the problem of incarcerating superhuman criminals by creating the maximum security prison termed “the Vault.” It had many advantages over more conventional prisons, as it contained multiple subterranean levels, was constructed from near-impervious materials such as either Adamantium or omnium steel, and used various power-dampening devices. An additional factor in the Vault’s early success was the fact that its location, deep within the Rocky Mountains of Colorado, was kept top secret from all but the most necessary personnel and government officials.

All 35 of the Vault’s guards wore Guardsman armor, modeled after a design by Tony Stark. This included the head of security, Michael O’Brien, whose brother was the original Guardsman before the Vault’s creation, and a six-man “Retriever” squad, who were responsible for the transporting of prisoners. Other personnel included the original warden, Howard G. Hardman, and the head of the in-house science team, Dr. Henri Sorel. The science/medical team was a three-man department responsible for screening prisoners when they arrived in order to determine if any specialized containment was necessary.

Separate security towers and administration building; main citadel (security staging areas, administrative offices); self-contained cells in subterranean levels, each cell has reconfigurable walls for differentiated accomodation; isolation pit/cells; self-contained nuclear power facility.

(This version of the Vault will be right before it was destroyed in Heroes For Hire #1 from 2001. This prison, as you can read from various sites, is nowhere on the level as last week's location, The Raft. Many prisoners tended to escape from it.)

 

[Phaedrus45]

Belasco vs. Baron Mordo:

Well, location really does nothing for either person, and both will probably know about the other, especially since they both frequent the same hellish circles. Either way, a great match, and the other participants will be very lucky that one of these two will be gone in Round 3.

The bios:

Belasco:

Belasco is one of the most powerful sorcerers on Earth and possesses a wide knowledge of spells, allowing him to shoot mystical rays, control the minds of humans and animals, and transform himself and others, among other things.

He was also endowed by the Elder Gods with immortality and apparent invulnerability. The exception to this is his own sword, which was forged by the Elder Gods themselves. It was this which cut off his right arm under unrevealed circumstances.

He has also come to possess a wide knowledge of the advanced technology left by the Atlanteans in Pangea.

Plus, the following as more explanation:

Belasco is one of the most powerful of all Earthborn sorcerors. Among other feats, he can hurl bolts of mystical force, mesmerize victims, transform people into animals, and raise the dead under certain circumstances. His long studies of the black arts have given him an encyclopedic knowledge of spells that he can use.

Belasco is also immortal, and apparently invulnerable as well. Possibly the only means of killing him outright is his own sword.



Baron Mordo:

Baron Mordo has vast magical abilities derived from his years of studying black magic and the mystic arts. He can separate his astral form from his body, allowing him to become intangible and invisible to most beings. He can project deadly force blasts using magic, can teleport, and can manipulate many forms of magical energy. He can also summon demons but they often don't do what he wants them to do.

Baron Mordo has great intelligence.


Basically, we have a battle of sorcerors; but, there is one who is superior to the other; that is Belasco. He is listed as "one of the most powerful sorcerors on Earth" and has "an encyclopedic knowledge of spells that he can use." He is able to control the minds of humans; and, in the end, Baron Mordo is just that: human.

Some major points to bring out regarding Baron Mordo:

"Though he is among the ten most powerful Earth-born sorcerers alive today, his power pales beside that of Earth's sorcerer supreme, Doctor Strange."


"The physical form is quite vulnerable to attack while the astral form is absent. If harm were to befall the physical body while he was in his astral form, he would be stranded in his wraith-like state."

(Mordo's body will be at The Vault. If he goes Astral, his body will be destroyed, thus stranding him in this state. It would be ill-advised for him to try and do that.)

In the end, this is a great match, regardless of the outcome.

Winner = Belasco

 

[Zoken]

Black Tartantula Vs. Surge

Interesting battle. Sadly, Surge is under experienced to deal with a villain of B.T.'s capacity. he has strength far superior to hers, meaning a level of invulnerablity that will grant him the protection he needs to handle her if it ever came to direct conflict. he would be able to dodge, and take the attacks until Surge tires herself out.

Also, he is a master strategist as he is a crimelord. more than likely he would avoid direct conflict by trying to use the prison to defeat her. if he can't opperate the controls, then he'll use large peices of it to hit her with. She may be able to use bursts of speed, but he has been trained and groomed for this lifestyle since he was born, literally. he is the Black Tarantula... he is LaMuerta

 

[Zoken]

The Following is parody...

Wolverine Vs. Firelord.

Doodz... FireLARD is Lame. Wolverine will cut his stick in half and feed them to him. WOLVERINE RULEZ! R0X3R