DACrowe said:
Okay here are a few.
I know you've addressed some, but I'd like to readdress them.
Conaway: He made GG kill Gwen Stacy. Besides cementing in a SINGLE story that GG was Spidey's greatest foe and not Doc Ock (obviously Stan's favorite) he did change the story. From then on the comics lost something, not so much innocence as niaevity. And the industry did lose its innocence as then you could kill people (and killing Gwen was not just shock value but important). He and JRSr. did affect him as Peter though he rebounded and became resilent, was never the same (difference between him and Batman is resilence). He moved on. They also allowed MJ to start her growth from party girl to a woman who is hiding a past and may offer a more meaningful relationship for Peter than even Stan realized.
Then you have him turning Harry into the Green Goblin and having him descend into drugs and maddness permanently. You can't say they didn't deepen the character and open new avenues and doors there. Which would have me remember Mantlo for his small but signifcant contribution of taking Conaway's love story of Harry and Liz and allowing them to get married and have a son which definetly affected all Goblin stories thereafter and Peter's relationship with the whole family from Norman to Normie.
Wolfman created Black Cat. Like her or not she was an important character in the mythos and still is. One of the major love interests (just behind MJ and Gwen) who offered a new avenue for Spider-Man to go down and interesting stories. He also got Peter working full time at the Bugle and being in graduate school (interestingly Stern and Mantlo had him drop out).
Roger Stern created the Hobgoblin and if you don't see the major affect that had on Peter and the Spider-Man mythos there is no point in going on.
Indirectly Frank Miller affected them by bringing the Kingpin back and making him the number one crimelord and threat to New York in the eighties which greatly shaped those comics.
Michellin did a major thing (though to Stan's request) and had Peter get married. Like the marriage or not (or like how Michellin wrote it or not) this was a BIG change. It redefined the character. It gave him a confidant and someone else other than his aunt to protect. It put him in a meaningful relationship and did have him grow more mature and certainly moreso than when Stan left as being married is the next step in life and Peter took it and whether written poorly or well that is a huge change and important to the growth of any man or woman for that matter.
He also created Venom which was a huge contribution to the Spider-Man mythos and Todd McFarlen deserves credit there too.
Baby May shoulda' been a major one. As should have Ben Reilly (or none as IMO Ben Reilly should never have existed in the first place) but c'est la vie. And for better or worst you can say Mackie changed the landscape by bringing GG back, which really has defined Peter's life in the last decade.
Also I forget who, but the writer who turned Harry back into the GG and past the point of no return and killed him certainly changed Peter's guilt to a new level.
And JMS has put some pretty big things in. The biggest seems to be quickly being undone (unfortunately) of making him a high school teacher which showed GREAT depth and growth as he goes back to his roots and a change in personality. He also (unfortunately) has brought mysticism into the origin and you cannot say the unmasking was not a huge step (whether in the wrong direction or not) for the character.
Now whether he has grown up more, well that is debatable. He has become more mature and cynical but still can be seen as 20 something with a way too happy-go-lucky disposition for someone of his level of loss in the world. However that has more to do with Lee saying in the '70s we have to "make the illusion of change" than not. However, these were major contributions that broke that rule and that is why they are remembered before oh say the Puma or the Spot then.
Let me explain what I mean.
When Stan developed Spider-Man, he didn't simply create events. He created lasting change and as I mentioned evolutionary elements for Peter.
From Amazing Fantasy #15 through ASM #28 when Peter graduated, through the late 60's and on to the early 70's when Stan left the title there was a smooth progression of Peter as a character and his supporting characters.
New villains represented new challenges. And every appearance by big time villains like Ock or the Goblin were major events leading to important developments:
Master Planner was Peter stepping into manhood.
Goblin arc in 39-40 led to Peter's id being revealed as well as the Goblin's id.
the introduction of the Kingpin re-affirmed for Peter his mission.
The Ock-amnesia arc further developed Peter's relationship with Gwen.
Ock's next appearance ended in the death of Captain Stacy.
The Goblin's next appearance dealt with drug addiction.
So to compare:
Ben's death led to Peter dilligently sacrificing much of his life to fighting crime.
Gwen's death led to......? Resilience? Of course Peter would regroup and move on. He'd have to unless the were ending the title. But what affect did it have on him? None.
Doc Ock is a powerful foe that first forced Peter to up his game. And each subsequent Ock appearance (Under Lee at least) brought a more dangerous Doc Ock, forcing Peter to rise to the occasion again and again. all of these made Spider-Man a greater hero.
Compare this to Venom appearances, where Peter actually appeared weaker each time. Never upping his game, never rising to the occasion. Merely getting lucky or unbelievably laying down for Venom (ASM #347 & 375). Thus weakening Spider-Man as a character. There's no question why at one point, Venom was a more popular character than Spider-Man.
So I'm saying that developments post-Lee haven't been as resounding. Another example- Hobgoblin. As much beloved as he may be, he's still just an attempt to recreate the Green Goblin. The same 2 year run of who he might be, Black Cat- I wholely disagree about the significance of that relationship. How did it affect Peter? What changes did it make in his life? What change did it make in how he dealt with his soon-after marriage with MJ? There's a clear indicator about the way Peter changed after his relationship with Betty ended. No change at all after Gwen's death. No advancement in his first superhero relationship, and there should have been.
So this is what I mean when I say evolution. And because the various creative teams over the years have bounced Spidey around focusing on event rather than characterization, which has led to where we are now, where nothing but events happen, and the events are meaningless.
