Could the real problem with the Hulk movies happen to be THE HULK himself?

[Binker]

First of all, let me just say that I've only seen Ang Lee's Hulk and not The Incedible Hulk. Got it? Good.

Anyway, I for one ain't a fan at all of Hulk. I feel that, not him, but his supporting cast have always made the stories and the Hulk himself so unfair that it doesn't make me feel right from reading a Hulk story. Hopefully you can understand what I meant by that. The only character with the "Hulk" name that I like happens to be She-Hulk, she's the only one.

Now, thinking about what happened to Hulk and now The Incredible Hulk, one that had haters and the other that has no sequel, could it be it's that Hulk doesn't work for his own movie? I end up getting that vibe anytime I thought about these two films, and the reactions that came with them, followed by how I feel about the character. That does make sense, because there have been mostly positive reactions toward The Incredible Hulk, yet no sequel. It makes you think, doesn't it?

Now, this is the same thing I feel for a DC Comics superhero and that's The Flash. For me; I don't care for The Flash so much to read his book. But if he were to appear in JLA, Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Trinity, or any book I get, then that's fine. A mini-series, like Geoff Johns' upcoming Flash: Rebirth, is also fine. I will get that. But that won't make me get his book. And that is the same if we were to talk about a Flash movie. I cannot see him work in his own movie. The Justice League movie? I could see that. It would fit, I could see him sorta like Cooke's version from New Frontier where he is this guy who does superspeed and doesn't see himself next to Superman or Green Lantern but finally steps up to the plate and joins the team, that I can see. But a Flash film, that's a different reaction from me.

So I believe that it's the Hulk who doesn't work in his own movie. It kinda makes sense when you think about what happened to after each of these two films, one with hate and the other with nothing positive over a sequel. Now, Hulk in The Avengers will be like what I said about Flash in Justice League: that would work with no problem. It's just his own movie that does have a problem.

 

[dcHulk]

I just think that the Hulk hasn't had proper treatment. Ang's Hulk was so character and drama driven that it was too heavy for the general audience expecting a summer action movie. TiH had to overcome the resulting stigma from Ang's Hulk (which I liked even). But TiH was lacking a little bit in the character development (Marvel's fault in editing, not the director or Norton). I think of it this way: most people who see an action movie during the summer want to see stuff blow up and/or destroyed. And there is a market there, ie Iron Man and TDK. The Hulk is the perfect source of destruction. However, both films were lacking something essential. Ang's Hulk lacked the sheer ferocity of the Hulk (the Hulk, in my opinion, should not just be reduced to a metaphor); TiH, while it was really close, just didn't cross the character development threshold. Big blockbusters seem to possess both elements, ie TDK and IM (RDJ was just full of charisma). Add in a pathetic marketing campaign for TiH and, whammo, you have a cool summer movie that under-performs. Keep in mind that the vast majority of those who saw TiH liked it much better than Ang's version.

 

[Leto]

It's been my long standing opinion that Ang Lee's film poisoned the well for sequel or remake and TIH was hurt by this.

Hulk needs to be more vocal. Hulk as a force of nature works to a point, but he does have to be a character in his own right.

I'd like to see the Grey Hulk, who has a more intimidating quality to him and a more defined personality.

 

[Showtime]

Yes.

 

[FNSpidey]

I just think that the Hulk hasn't had proper treatment. Ang's Hulk was so character and drama driven that it was too heavy for the general audience expecting a summer action movie. TiH had to overcome the resulting stigma from Ang's Hulk (which I liked even). But TiH was lacking a little bit in the character development (Marvel's fault in editing, not the director or Norton). I think of it this way: most people who see an action movie during the summer want to see stuff blow up and/or destroyed. And there is a market there, ie Iron Man and TDK. The Hulk is the perfect source of destruction. However, both films were lacking something essential. Ang's Hulk lacked the sheer ferocity of the Hulk (the Hulk, in my opinion, should not just be reduced to a metaphor); TiH, while it was really close, just didn't cross the character development threshold. Big blockbusters seem to possess both elements, ie TDK and IM (RDJ was just full of charisma). Add in a pathetic marketing campaign for TiH and, whammo, you have a cool summer movie that under-performs. Keep in mind that the vast majority of those who saw TiH liked it much better than Ang's version.

I think that's the problem. I agree with almost everything, except one point: Ang Lee's Hulk did aim for characterization, but it certainly wasn't too heavy. It just thought it was. All it did was bash our heads with the obvious psychological reasons (child trauma ) for two hours. Sure, that's partially the source of the Hulk, but the real appeal of the character is what can you do when you have something like this inside you. How do you cope with it, from day to day life to emotional exhaustion. TIH just touched that, but it should have dug deeper.

So, I don't think the Hulk really is the problem, as I find him one of the best comic characters out there (and I'm not even a big fan, at least not a steady one). A happy middle of the two films' approaches is what I think is needed (leaning towards TIH's side).

 

[dcHulk]

^^I can agree with that.

 

[co2]

It's been my long standing opinion that Ang Lee's film poisoned the well for sequel or remake and TIH was hurt by this.

Perhaps it did in the sense that most of the audiences for a sequel was turned off and diminished, yeah...but story wise, it perfectly set up the potential for a sequel...which it would have been nice if TIH just followed up on.

 

[jpmuftak]

First of all, let me just say that I've only seen Ang Lee's Hulk and not The Incedible Hulk. Got it? Good.

Anyway, I for one ain't a fan at all of Hulk. I feel that, not him, but his supporting cast have always made the stories and the Hulk himself so unfair that it doesn't make me feel right from reading a Hulk story. Hopefully you can understand what I meant by that. The only character with the "Hulk" name that I like happens to be She-Hulk, she's the only one.

Now, thinking about what happened to Hulk and now The Incredible Hulk, one that had haters and the other that has no sequel, could it be it's that Hulk doesn't work for his own movie? I end up getting that vibe anytime I thought about these two films, and the reactions that came with them, followed by how I feel about the character. That does make sense, because there have been mostly positive reactions toward The Incredible Hulk, yet no sequel. It makes you think, doesn't it?

Now, this is the same thing I feel for a DC Comics superhero and that's The Flash. For me; I don't care for The Flash so much to read his book. But if he were to appear in JLA, Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Trinity, or any book I get, then that's fine. A mini-series, like Geoff Johns' upcoming Flash: Rebirth, is also fine. I will get that. But that won't make me get his book. And that is the same if we were to talk about a Flash movie. I cannot see him work in his own movie. The Justice League movie? I could see that. It would fit, I could see him sorta like Cooke's version from New Frontier where he is this guy who does superspeed and doesn't see himself next to Superman or Green Lantern but finally steps up to the plate and joins the team, that I can see. But a Flash film, that's a different reaction from me.

So I believe that it's the Hulk who doesn't work in his own movie. It kinda makes sense when you think about what happened to after each of these two films, one with hate and the other with nothing positive over a sequel. Now, Hulk in The Avengers will be like what I said about Flash in Justice League: that would work with no problem. It's just his own movie that does have a problem.

I completely agree with you!
I went and saw both big screen adaptations, and left both thinking - that was a pretty alright movie. I love the idea of a big monster, ect.
I've always enjoyed seeing the big green in action, but I've always seen him as a side story type of role.

The fact is, there is nothing DEEP about him.

There is no character to develop.

The simple truth is, the hulk is a monster, and therefore - unable to base a story off of.

You can talk all you want about bruce, but nobody gives a s**t about the wimpy professor.
It's something else when it's the same guy in the suit (iron man, spiderman)
but when he transforms into something that is actually a different person.
You're screwed.
No story will ever be able to work around such a character. Period.
It's fun, it's eyecandy, it's great setup for a team movie, but it aint gonna rake in the repeat views, or word of mouth.

 

[UA-Archangel]

I've been saying that Hulk is not able to carry an entire movie, much less a series of movies by himself for a long time.

For the average movie goer, who's not inclined to debate whether Hulk was green enough or growly enough or too monster-like or not enough monster-like, Hulk is not an exciting character to watch on screen.

In my opinion, both Hulk movies were done very well and both had their strengths and weaknesses, but after two movie, with each being done differently and both still not succeeding in the box office, it should be obvious that Hulk (God bless his green heart) is just not the kind of character that the masses are going to see.

It'd be better for him to be part of an ensemble, like the Avengers.

 

[webhead731]

Wow...are we bashing TIH now? Last I knew everyone here loved it?

I think it's one of the best movies. I even liked it more than Iron Man or Dark Knight.

 

[FNSpidey]

Wow...are we bashing TIH now? Last I knew everyone here loved it?

I think it's one of the best movies. I even liked it more than Iron Man or Dark Knight.

Yes, I don't know where that came from.

Anyway, the general audience liked Transformers. Can anyone believe that? Transformers! And now the Hulk is too shallow a character?

No, I don't think that's the case. A savage powerhouse of destruction hidden inside a man with all the emotional stress and turmoil it's causing him is certainly not a subject with no angles to explore. TIH touched upon that, with Bruce living in isolation, even from himself, constantly checking his heart rate, striving to avoid any situation that would cause the monster to emerge, fearing to approach his loved ones. And every time the Hulk appears, there's no knowing where he'll end up next. Will he be prosecuted? Will he be responsible for something terrible? Where will he wake up and what will his current situation be?

I think there are a lot of approaches to explore here. Certainly more than a bunch of space robots bashing each other's heads in. Sure, there's spectacle there, but Hulk can offer that in spades, too. As some mentioned above, Hulk just needs a film to combine the spectacle while delving in the main character's psyche (and I'm not talking about just a stupid child trauma cliche like HULK did).

 

[November Rain]

All this ang lee poisoning stuff is complete nonesense, the people that watched the first watched this one as well

the problem with the hulk is that the character's spectrum of fans is so wide it's impossible to cater to everyone's liking.

more people would prefer to having fighting heroes rather than other villains.

I just don't think banner as a person is relatable, and While they have tried to do it in the films, they haven't made the hulk relatable either. His interaction with humans has been very limited in both.

 

[dcHulk]

I absolutely loved TiH. So, I'm not bashing it; just being critical. And I think that's important. The producers and the director have meandered through these boards to see what people are saying. If people can be critical, and not overbearing with groundless insults and such, I think it can help the filmmakers learn what works and what doesn't. Thus giving us an even better product.

I hope they (Marvel) gets the message about the marketing...

 

[Obi-Ron]

.
The simple truth is, the hulk is a monster, and therefore - unable to base a story off of.

Yeah, the comics, cartoons, movies, books, and TV shows have really been treading water for the last 45 years - you know, since there are no stories to tell.

 

[Doc Samson]

Two previous observations:

Regardless of the movie's quality, theres no way it can compete with a Batman movie, especially if its as good as it looks to be. Iron Man is brand new, and thus, will get a bunch of casual fans in addition to hardcore fanboys just off the "cool" factor of a dude in a Iron suit that can pretty much do anything. Add to that the late marketing, and I don't see this movie doing spiderman numbers if thats what you consider successful, but if its well done, and has enough for the kids to get into, it will be good enough, and to me, as long as it recoups the budget and has a little life after that, it wont be a failure. On the other hand if some of you guys think its going to dominate the summer, Im not so sure about all that.....

I look at TDK & IM getting well deserved praise for the performances and I have to think all this boils down to our main character being cgi (and perhaps the technology just not being ready yet) Norton is just as good an actor as anyone who's ever been in this genre, or for that matter of his generation, but when you take him off the screen for the big action stuff, it kind of lessens his input. And when it comes down to it, Dr. Banner himself isn't exactly full of life or exciting, his whole mission in life is to be as mundane and boring as possible, flamboyant he's not. But once again that's the nature of the Hulk, I sure as hell don't want to go back to bodypaint, wigs & slippers so in the end........I guess we got all we could've hoped for. On the flipside, I do believe this will fare extremely well on dvd, whatever consolation that may bring

 

[UA-Archangel]

Yeah, the comics, cartoons, movies, books, and TV shows have really been treading water for the last 45 years - you know, since there are no stories to tell.

Except it's not as translatable for the average movie goer.

The average movie goer does not analyze movies to find sublayers after sublayers.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

People need to stop trying to say that Ang's movie hurt the performance of TIH when it clearly didnt, enough people went to see TIH, it just didnt have the word of mouth to get other people to go and see it, or the people who did see it to see it again.

All this 'the would have done better if Ang's movie hadnt come before it' nonsense is complete ********.

 

[UA-Archangel]

People need to stop trying to say that Ang's movie hurt the performance of TIH when it clearly didnt, enough people went to see TIH, it just didnt have the word of mouth to get other people to go and see it, or the people who did see it to see it again.

All this 'the would have done better if Ang's movie hadnt come before it' nonsense is complete ********.

I thought Ang did a good job myself.

I find it interesting that people are complaining about how TIH didn't appeal, because all Hulk did was go "Hulk Smash!" and didn't have any sub-text.

Ang was full of sub-text and people are complaining that the lack of appeal was due to not enough, "Hulk Smash!"

People, with all due respect, the reason why Hulk doesn't appeal well enough is because his character doesn't translate well in the movie world.

He's be far better as a tv show, because then you can develop him over a longer period and and still have the "Hulk Smash".

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I loved Ang's movie, think its the best Hulk movie we have, but also enjoy TIH a lot, but TIH didnt have people talking like TDK or Iron Man or Hancock did, because people obviously didnt feel the need to recommend it.

 

[zanos]

First of all, let me just say that I've only seen Ang Lee's Hulk and not The Incedible Hulk. Got it? Good.

Anyway, I for one ain't a fan at all of Hulk. I feel that, not him, but his supporting cast have always made the stories and the Hulk himself so unfair that it doesn't make me feel right from reading a Hulk story. Hopefully you can understand what I meant by that. The only character with the "Hulk" name that I like happens to be She-Hulk, she's the only one.

Now, thinking about what happened to Hulk and now The Incredible Hulk, one that had haters and the other that has no sequel, could it be it's that Hulk doesn't work for his own movie? I end up getting that vibe anytime I thought about these two films, and the reactions that came with them, followed by how I feel about the character. That does make sense, because there have been mostly positive reactions toward The Incredible Hulk, yet no sequel. It makes you think, doesn't it?

So I believe that it's the Hulk who doesn't work in his own movie. It kinda makes sense when you think about what happened to after each of these two films, one with hate and the other with nothing positive over a sequel. Now, Hulk in The Avengers will be like what I said about Flash in Justice League: that would work with no problem. It's just his own movie that does have a problem.

The Hulk character hasn't survived decades by being unappealing. The first film tainted the entire franchise. That's basically it in a nutshell. Audience perception is everything.

 

[zanos]

All this ang lee poisoning stuff is complete nonesense, the people that watched the first watched this one as well

Considering the general negative sentiment of the first film among fans and non fans alike it would seem pretty irrational that the great majority of ppl who actually watched that film would have came back for more. The bad box office is proof of this. Is it just coincidence that sequels to good films actually end up making much more money?

the problem with the hulk is that the character's spectrum of fans is so wide it's impossible to cater to everyone's liking.

more people would prefer to having fighting heroes rather than other villains.

I just don't think banner as a person is relatable, and While they have tried to do it in the films, they haven't made the hulk relatable either. His interaction with humans has been very limited in both.

How is Bruce Wayne relatable at all? Cmon let's put the blame where it belongs and stop trying to find silly made up reasons.

 

[UA-Archangel]

The Hulk character hasn't survived decades by being unappealing. The first film tainted the entire franchise. That's basically it in a nutshell. Audience perception is everything.

He's a great character in his proper medium, comics.

But not everything that works in comics is going to work onscreen.

 

[dark_b]

so ang lee haters didnt watch TIH?
OR.........................
ang lee haters watched TIH and didnt come back later because of ang lee?

lets face it TIH had a good opening weekend compared to 03 hulk.

 

[November Rain]

Considering the general negative sentiment of the first film among fans and non fans alike it would seem pretty irrational that the great majority of ppl who actually watched that film would have came back for more. The bad box office is proof of this. Is it just coincidence that sequels to good films actually end up making much more money?

But aren't the margins of the films very much similar when you take inflation out of it? Wouldn't that mean it was viewed by a similar audience.

I mean batman and robin didn't affect batman begins, die another day didn't affect casino royale, why should ang lee's hulk be responsible for this film's takings. No one has any evidence of this and it's only fans which are putting this opinion out. It's clutching at straws. Show me a market survey about people being influenced on ang's hulk but until then, evidence from other films suggests otherwise.

How is Bruce Wayne relatable at all? Cmon let's put the blame where it belongs and stop trying to find silly made up reasons.

He is the ultimate 'one-man-can-make-a-difference-if-he-puts-his-heart-and-soul-into it'. He causes aspiration for people and shows that people can take control of their own lives and destiny instead of continuing on in their miserable lives.

now bruce is supposed to be about a dude who just wants to be on his own but other people keep getting in his face and pushing him and pushing him and he snaps, he loses it. something we normally can't do. we are supposed to relate to that

the hulk is a representation of the superiority complex we all have inside us as well as a release of all inner turmoil personified into a being of raw power and emotion. He speaks and acts unhibited by anything and anyone because nothing has a juridiction over him, he's complete freedom. again no one has that but we can all relate to wanting it.

none of the films really captured those tales in full but that is the selling point to getting a decent hulk film, not a big cgi fight scene

 

[November Rain]

so ang lee haters didnt watch TIH?
OR.........................
ang lee haters watched TIH and didnt come back later because of ang lee?

lets face it TIH had a good opening weekend compared to 03 hulk.

The whole ang lee argument is unfounded. As of yet no one has provided evidence of anything to prove it and forget most movie viewers don't really care.

'crap' films before are crap films before. Most people on this forum watched both, young families taking their kids to be entertained watched both (even though the first isn't really a kids film).

It's not like TIH was flawless, it made some similar mistakes to ang lee's hulk and some brand new ones. These were coming from dudes who assured us they had learnt from the 'mistakes' of the past and people who said they were fans of the comics but the film ended up more like the tv show (which is nothing like the comics).

for me unlike most characters, there are too many essences to the character that most people like, the fighting heroes, the multiple personalities, the relationship between banner and the hulk himself, the relationship with the hulk and other people etc, it's impossible to pick something everyone will like so they play safe and we all complain he's misrepresented.