Daredevil Daredevil General Discussion Thread - Part 1

[Loki882]

^ I think Daredevil comes close to the line, so, in that sense, I agree with him. But I also don't think he'd cross that line. And, let's face it, he has a ton of bad days and he's not the Punisher, so it's demonstrably false. But as hyperbole, I'm cool with the statement.

The two characters actually work well as opposite sides of a coin. Daredevil obviously works in violent shades of gray, but he has faith in the justice system and the capacity to forgive and help his enemies. Punisher rejects the justice system and rejects forgiveness and compassion. He sinks to the villain's level and relishes in it. The contrast works well.



I go back and forth on this. On the one hand, I agree completely. It'll always be imperfect and I don't think the comics have always handled ti well. On the other hand, the comics have non-visual clues they can use. Unless we can constantly hear Matt's thoughts being narrated, there's no other good way to reflect the radar sense. Just showing him reacting doesn't let the audience imagine the radar sense as it actually is, it lets the audience get deluded into thinking he can see normally. At least some visual approximation (for what I'd submit is not a visual thing at all) gives the audience something their brains can comprehend.

I don't really agree that the Punisher "relishes" what he does. Maybe Ennis's Punisher does, but not every version is like that. A lot of times he's depicted as not really enjoying what he does. He does it because he sees it as a necessary evil. "The law" often fails to punish terrible people who are guilty as sin, be it due to technicalities, corruption, plain-old incompetence, etc, so someone else has to. He's a soldier fighting a war, at least in his own mind. As for his methods, it's like Batman's whole "turn fear against those who prey on the fearful" philosophy taken to it's most extreme.

 

[The Question]

I don't really agree that the Punisher "relishes" what he does. Maybe Ennis's Punisher does, but not every version is like that. A lot of times he's depicted as not really enjoying what he does. He does it because he sees it as a necessary evil. "The law" often fails to punish terrible people who are guilty as sin, be it due to technicalities, corruption, plain-old incompetence, etc, so someone else has to. He's a soldier fighting a war, at least in his own mind. As for his methods, it's like Batman's whole "turn fear against those who prey on the fearful" philosophy taken to it's most extreme.

I'm not a fan of this interpretation of the character. To me, there is nothing practical about The Punisher's war. It's all about catharsis for him.

 

[Paradox1]

I'm not a fan of this interpretation of the character. To me, there is nothing practical about The Punisher's war. It's all about catharsis for him.

I agree with this Punisher's rampage is about feeling something. He's dead from the neck down unable to take joy anything outside of his mission.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I hope we get some really good choreography in this. I can't wait to see DD fight.

 

[The Question]

I'm interested in seeing how the fight choreography plays out. Personally, I'd love to see a more rough'n'tumble Gangs of New York inspired style to the fight scenes over the wire fu stuff, but that's just my personal taste.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I just want to see DD be fluid and brutal, yet efficient and skilled especially with his billy clubs. The acrobatics and parkour can be saved for his roof top running.

 

[antonydelfini]

I don't really agree that the Punisher "relishes" what he does. Maybe Ennis's Punisher does, but not every version is like that. A lot of times he's depicted as not really enjoying what he does. He does it because he sees it as a necessary evil. "The law" often fails to punish terrible people who are guilty as sin, be it due to technicalities, corruption, plain-old incompetence, etc, so someone else has to. He's a soldier fighting a war, at least in his own mind. As for his methods, it's like Batman's whole "turn fear against those who prey on the fearful" philosophy taken to it's most extreme.

I dont remember Ennis' Punisher relish killing others especially in the max series. I remember him always filled with hate and disgust for bad guys but I dont remember him enjoying what he does. BTW, a Punisher Netflix series would own.

 

[Loki882]

Ennis implied that Frank had homicidal thoughts even before his family was killed. Really all that their murders did was give him an excuse to do what he already wanted to do on some level. Personally, I never much cared for that idea.

 

[Loki882]

I'm not a fan of this interpretation of the character. To me, there is nothing practical about The Punisher's war. It's all about catharsis for him.

You could say that about pretty much all costumed characters. For example, Batman fights a war against crime that he cannot possibly ever win. And the same is true about many other heroes. Heck their even more "impractical" since they end up fighting the same villains over and over again because their "codes" prevent them from using lethal force even though it's been proven time and time and time again that the justice system simply cannot or will not deal with them effectively. What they say that their mission is, is a mission that will NEVER be completely successful. They do it because they feel that it's right. In short, they get "catharis" out of it.

 

[The Question]

You could say that about pretty much all costumed characters. For example, Batman fights a war against crime that he cannot possibly ever win. And the same is true about many other heroes. Heck their even more "impractical" since they end up fighting the same villains over and over again because their "codes" prevent them from using lethal force even though it's been proven time and time and time again that the justice system simply cannot or will not deal with them effectively. What they say that their mission is, is a mission that will NEVER be completely successful. They do it because they feel that it's right. In short, they get "catharis" out of it.

1: My larger point was that I don't see The Punisher as thinking that he ever can win, or that what he does even contributes to making the world a better place. I'd suspect that Frank feels that his mission doesn't make much of a difference, nor is he looking for it to make a difference. The catharsis he gets out of doing what he does isn't that he knows it's right or that he's helping people, it comes from hurting people who he hates, because after his family died the only thing he has left is violence. His motivation should be entirely about personal gratification, which is more interesting to me, especially when he has to interact with other people who actually want to help people or actually need help themselves.

2: The narrative conceit of the revolving door of super villains is simply a means for writers to regularly recycle old favorites. It doesn't have much baring on the plausibility of the heroes' methods as it is in of itself entirely implausible and not really applicable to our world.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Television has a perfect non-visual cue that it can use:

Sound.

Sound mixing would be invaluable to a show about a blind character. Emphasizing certain sounds while dulling certain others to get a sense of what he's noticing, amping up the sounds that most people don't notice like fabric rubbing against fabric or an object disrupting the air as it moves quickly, creating a sense of Murdock's constant sensory bombardment through the sound mixing, all of that and more is stuff that a sound editor can use to get a sense of what being Daredevil is like.

They absolutely need to do that. Really, they need to emphasize how multi-sensory Matt Murdock is. It's been pointed out in the past that Frank Miller was the first to realize how important smell was, for example. Of course, it's hard to show smell on TV. While I wouldn't want to abandon Matt's radar sense entirely, I hope these other methods are placed just as prominently.

Also #2, if we are going to visually represent Daredevil's radar sense, I have an alternative suggestion. Instead of these monochrome images of outlines or something meant to resemble and old fashioned radar screen, why not show us what Matt Murdock is actually visualizing? He lived the first 12-15 years of his life sighted (the age he lost his sight changes from version to version). That means that he does have a memory of what things are supposed to look like. If he senses that there is a car right next to him, he isn't going to imagine a hazy car-shaped black mass, he's going to imagine what he remembers a car looking like. The big problem is that the radar sense isn't what a formerly sighted blind person would imagine when he gets information, so it implies that he's literally "seeing" that, which mixes up the story's cues.

That's an interesting idea. In a way, it could be more confusing, though. At least with the radar sense, while completely wrong from the perspective of how Matt interprets it, at least conveys to the audience that it's completely alien. A world of no color or clear form gives a good idea of the level of detail he gets. Plus, I wonder the extent Matt tries to visualize the world based on what he's seen vs. hasn't seen.

I'm going to start a topic on this because I think it's worth exploring in more depth.

I don't really agree that the Punisher "relishes" what he does. Maybe Ennis's Punisher does, but not every version is like that. A lot of times he's depicted as not really enjoying what he does. He does it because he sees it as a necessary evil. "The law" often fails to punish terrible people who are guilty as sin, be it due to technicalities, corruption, plain-old incompetence, etc, so someone else has to. He's a soldier fighting a war, at least in his own mind. As for his methods, it's like Batman's whole "turn fear against those who prey on the fearful" philosophy taken to it's most extreme.

You're right that relish was the wrong word. I don't really get the impression that Frank Castle gets joy out of anything anymore.

The only thing I'd quibble with is the idea that he views himself as a necessary evil because some people get away scot-free. I think he views himself as a necessary evil because no criminal is punished enough in our justice system (aside from those who get death but, even then, the process is too slow to be truly justice).

 

[ElectroFlare]

Question, if I may ask you, earlier in this thread you mention subtle cues with Matt reacting to sound vs sight, which I certainly agree is needed. Perhaps something like "The Book of Eli"? I wouldn't want it that subtle, but there's a blind character who does a lot of things Matt does-fighting, navigating new places unaided, that kind of thing. The hints are subtle, too subtle in my opinion, but what do you think of that representation?

 

[The Question]

Question, if I may ask you, earlier in this thread you mention subtle cues with Matt reacting to sound vs sight, which I certainly agree is needed. Perhaps something like "The Book of Eli"? I wouldn't want it that subtle, but there's a blind character who does a lot of things Matt does-fighting, navigating new places unaided, that kind of thing. The hints are subtle, too subtle in my opinion, but what do you think of that representation?

I haven't seen Book of Eli. But if it does a good job conveying a blind fighter in a believable manner, then sure, yeah.

 

[kosh33]

Scott glenn joins the cast as Stick
http://marvel.com/news/tv/23265/scott_glenn_joins_marvels_daredevil_for_netflix

 

[Endeavor]

Well, he is a badass in The Leftovers.
I think this is great casting, as usual.

 

[Dr. Evil]

So Glenn could be at NYC Comic Con....nice.

However, I will take Marvel to task if they don't reveal who Rosario Dawson is playing by the time NYC Comic-Con ends.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

They'll probably reveal her there. Seems logical enough.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I'm going to NYCC this year. I exhibit at the show, so generally avoid the big TV panels... but this I may have to try to get into!

 

[Dr. Evil]

They'll probably reveal her there. Seems logical enough.

It should be. I do hope she's Echo, Misty Knight or Elektra, because I want to see Rosario Dawson show up in the MCU movies. Kirsten McDuffie and/or Milla Donovan would be a major disappointment.

 

[Keyser Soze]

My top choice for Dawson is currently Night Nurse. Because then there's a connection for her to show up in the Doctor Strange movie.

 

[Dr. Evil]

My top choice for Dawson is currently Night Nurse. Because then there's a connection for her to show up in the Doctor Strange movie.

I'd be fine with that because then she gets to be in an MCU movie. Her career has been a bit stagnant at this point and being in an MCU movie would be helpful to her career.

 

[Dark Raven]

Did Night Nurse treat Daredevil at one point? I don't remember. But there were several Night Nurses weren't there?

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Wow, Scott Glenn. Great choice!

What will Marvel do when they run out of good actors?

 

[pixen]

It should be. I do hope she's Echo, Misty Knight or Elektra, because I want to see Rosario Dawson show up in the MCU movies. Kirsten McDuffie and/or Milla Donovan would be a major disappointment.

I really hope Echo doesn't show up in this... I don't get the appeal.

 

[Six]

What will Marvel do when they run out of good actors?

Marvel has been working on that for years. Part of the contract for signing an actor is, that they have the right to take the DNA of their best actors and use it to create actors with the sole purpose of acting in future Marvel movies.