BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

[DA_Champion]

Yeah, that line was cool as heck, "You are weak, Son of El, unsure of yourself. The fact that you possess a sense of morality, and we do not, gives us an evolutionary advantage", but it was just that -- a cool, throwaway line.

You'd have expected Clark's "sense of morality" to be used again him by Zod in the end fight. Where was the "evolutionary advantage" in the fight sequence?

I actually kind of liked that line. It shows Faora's delusions. She believes, as perhaps many Kryptonians did, that they are the pinnacle of biological evolution, which is why they don't need to evolve. However, they do need to evolve, and her line is revealing her own failings rather than those of her enemies, and her hubris prevents her from seeing it. Faora is an evolutionary dead-end.

The very advantage of Kal-El is that he has gotten a non-Kryptonian upbringing. The only reason he can hold back Faora and Nam-Ek is because he is used to Earth and used to his powers.

There is no reason to take it as anything, it wasn't implied that it granted him any extra benefits. Hell if we go with what the movie presented Zod was the ultimate kryptonian as he mastered all his abilities in a few hours while it took Clark 33 years.

I think it might be implied that Kal-El is the ultimate Kryptonian. When he runs up against the gravity beam to smash the giant metal squid, he gains new powers that he did not have before. He's not supposed to be able to do that, given the different atmosphere near the squid. They also made his face morph into Christopher Reeve's (using CGI) when he rose up.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

Why didn't Foara and co age after 33 years? Even Zod only aged a bit?

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ They were absorbing the earth's atmosphere through the ship. Or, it's the same reason Alfred isn't any younger in the BB flashback

 

[LordofhouseEl]

unneeded?
Didn't know you were a DC editor.

And yes, if kryptonite can do such things no reason to start questioning the internal sci fi now.

It's unneeded because it adds nothing that red sun radiation couldn't have done, just change for the sake of change.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

^ They were absorbing the earth's atmosphere through the ship. Or, it's the same reason Alfred isn't any younger in the BB flashback

Nah they are newbs at that exposure thing hence don't even know **** about their abilities.

 

[DA_Champion]

It's a dance when you clearly state that the opinions of professions are worth more than your own, then you go on to describe just what you think Goyer and Snyder are if not professionals.

" if you disagree with an expert you need to pause and reflect, because your odds of being correct are small"
Sorry but you can't have it both ways friend.

Furthermore, Nolan was an executive producer, that means he didn't just sign off on everything, he endorsed it and was given last word. Makes sense given his story credit. It means he"the professional and celebrated film maker and writer with comic book adaptation experience" endorsed it, where Waid "the mostly celebrated comic book writer" did not endorse the film.

Like I said, it's a tricky dance to stand by your words when they are applied elsewhere.

Let me hold your hand:
1) David S. Goyer wrote the screenplay.
2) Zach Snyder was the director.
3) Christopher Nolan hired them, sat back, and then got paid a lot of money.

There's no dance, I've been consistent on this all the way to the last thread when I said we shouldn't blame Nolan.

For whatever's good and bad about the movie, I consistently blame and credit Goyer and Snyder. I have given a lot of credit to Snyder for his casting and his mostly good use of visuals. I don't credit Nolan for the CGI.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

I don't know. I would think that fans have a greater understanding on what films honor their favorite character. If Mark Waid doesn't think it does, then it's his opinion.

But I do think something is miss when Waid AND Morrison have mixed to poor feelings about the film, with Bryne not seeming to like the film, though he thought ending had a nice tone to it. On the other hand, JB tends to be REALLY whiny and rude in general.

Jim Lee said the movie made him cry, it also made me cry but for different reasons than him.

 

[PacificBoy]

I don't know. I would think that fans have a greater understanding on what films honor their favorite character. If Mark Waid doesn't think it does, then it's his opinion.

But I do think something is miss when Waid AND Morrison have mixed to poor feelings about the film, with Bryne not seeming to like the film, though he thought ending had a nice tone to it. On the other hand, JB tends to be REALLY whiny and rude in general.

Well, it says something, but I don't think their mixed reactions can be used as a stick to beat the movie with. Too much.

I dunno too. t:

 

[DA_Champion]

Jim Lee said the movie made him cry, it also made me cry but for different reasons than him.

Do we have any elaborate opinions from Lee, Morrison, etc?

I don't really care that Waid didn't like the movie (personally), it's more the fact that he sat down and gave very detailed and considered explanations, which gives us the opportunity to understand where he's coming from.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Jim Lee said the movie made him cry, it also made me cry but for different reasons than him.

He's also an ARTIST, and I don't think he writes (I might be wrong).

For what it's worth, Dan Jurgen's liked it

 

[roach]

He's also an ARTIST, and I don't think he writes (I might be wrong).

For what it's worth, Dan Jurgen's liked it

for what it's worth he is listed as a co writer on X-men #1

 

[DA_Champion]

Let me sum it up for you:

"I hated Man of Steel. Anyone who agrees with me is right. Anyone who disagrees with me is wrong."

Thats what it boils down to.

I don't hate or love the movie, it's a mediocre movie on par or a little below par with most comic book movies, like X Men 3 and Blade. If somebody posts something good about the movie, I'll acknowledge it, for example my "like" of Faora's line on evolution always winning is due to a post by someone else.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

Do we have any elaborate opinions from Lee, Morrison, etc?

I don't really care that Waid didn't like the movie (personally), it's more the fact that he sat down and gave very detailed and considered explanations, which gives us the opportunity to understand where he's coming from.

Lee wasn't very detailed, it's obvious why now. He said a few things and said it made him cry. His as sweet as can be with DC at current this film could have been GL bad and I bet he would have still said he shed tears. Morrison did not like it, I can send you a link to his thoughts if you want.

 

[PacificBoy]

I actually kind of liked that line. It shows Faora's delusions. She believes, as perhaps many Kryptonians did, that they are the pinnacle of biological evolution, which is why they don't need to evolve. However, they do need to evolve, and her line is revealing her own failings rather than those of her enemies, and her hubris prevents her from seeing it. Faora is an evolutionary dead-end.

The very advantage of Kal-El is that he has gotten a non-Kryptonian upbringing. The only reason he can hold back Faora and Nam-Ek is because he is used to Earth and used to his powers.

I think it might be implied that Kal-El is the ultimate Kryptonian. When he runs up against the gravity beam to smash the giant metal squid, he gains new powers that he did not have before. He's not supposed to be able to do that, given the different atmosphere near the squid. They also made his face morph into Christopher Reeve's (using CGI) when he rose up.

Good points. So Zod "mastered his senses" in moments in Metropolis and could thus go toe-to-toe with Clark? The same Zod who may be a great general, but a bang average fighter? Or "senses" is senses and not fighting ability?

 

[DA_Champion]

"There son is younger and brighter than ours"
Use your phd or whatever piece of paper you want to wave around and prove this isn't true as the movie states it.

I'm not posting equations on this board, this board does not even have an equation editor. Needless to say, as I've already told you, the fact Earth's sun is younger is irrelevant, unless Krypton's sun is at an advanced evolved stage, which it is shown not to be.

The basic point though, is that they changed the mythology for no reason, and they told us that Krypton's sun was different even though it looks the same. It's not that hard, let me hold your hand again:

1) The script tells us Krypton's sun is different.
2) So why NOT show it to be different as well, given that it makes sense for it to be different? Why would it hurt the movie to keep things consistent with the prior mythology of Krypton having a red sun?

There is no reason to make Krypton's sun a solar twin, which is a deliberate change to the mythology and adds nothing.

 

[Marvin]

I mean, Clark fended off TWO Kryptonians in Smallville while doing showing concern, saving the people. So why couldn't he have been made to do the same in Metropolis, against a so-so warrior in Zod?

Inconsistent strength portrayal.

As interesting a debate as that would make(zod is clearly more powerful than he's companions and the final fight vs smallville fight is the visible proof).

I'd personally chalk that up to the reality of comic book adaptation. From Spidey(punching doc ock in the face) to Stark(20 drones with one laser?) to Blade to Batman(vs bane)

it happens.

 

[Marvin]

It's unneeded because it adds nothing that red sun radiation couldn't have done, just change for the sake of change.

Didn't know Krypton had a red son in this universe..

Seems kinda fickle to add a dying star premise ontop of an imploding core plot.

 

[DA_Champion]

Good points. So Zod "mastered his senses" in moments in Metropolis and could thus go toe-to-toe with Clark? The same Zod who may be a great general, but a bang average fighter? Or "senses" is senses and not fighting ability?

The way I see it:

1) Clark could match or best Faora and Nam/Ek because he knew how to use his powers. For example, when they almost had him near the end of the fight, he heat-rayed them. Heat-raying is established as a core power throughout the movie. Clark uses heat-ray to cauterize Lois, he uses it to hide in the closet in his school by raising the temperature of the door knob.

Late in the Smallville fight when their gas mask was removed they get confused, Faora calls it a "temporary weakness". There's also the fact that since he was able to sway the military to his side, it gave him a small advantage, the military could distract Faora and Nam-Ek, and indeed it's their missile that blew up their gas mask. Senses are not the same thing as fighting ability, but they contribute.

2) Zod, at the end of the film, has mastered his powers. He takes off his useless battle suit because he realises he doesn't need it. He learns how to heat-ray, first in a scene of confusion, and later when attacking the family. I'm pretty sure that if Zod wanted to, he would crush Clark at this point. However, Zod wants to die. He says that he's lost his soul. I interpret his actions as suicide-by-cop. When Clark was strangling him, he could have easily broken free, he chooses to die. He, like Padme Amidala, has lost the will to live.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

for what it's worth he is listed as a co writer on X-men #1

Thank you for correcting me.

I think there will always be an inconsistency of strength/ability if the plot demands it. Batman's able to deflect guns, but isn't fast enough to be prepared for dogs

 

[DA_Champion]

Didn't know Krypton had a red son in this universe..

Seems kinda fickle to add a dying star premise ontop of an imploding core plot.

Nobody suggested a dying star. Red giants can last for several hundred million years.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

Didn't know Krypton had a red son in this universe..

Seems kinda fickle to add a dying star premise ontop of an imploding core plot.

Not really just shows how old krypton sun is, just illustrating what has been said. Nothing complicated about it, atmospheric change shouldn't nullify his powers anyway since JorEl states in the movie his abilities come from drinking in the rays of the earths sun.

 

[Marvin]

Let me hold your hand:
1) David S. Goyer wrote the screenplay.
2) Zach Snyder was the director.
3) Christopher Nolan hired them, sat back, and then got paid a lot of money.

There's no dance, I've been consistent on this all the way to the last thread when I said we shouldn't blame Nolan.

For whatever's good and bad about the movie, I consistently blame and credit Goyer and Snyder. I have given a lot of credit to Snyder for his casting and his mostly good use of visuals. I don't credit Nolan for the CGI.

I never said you have been inconsistent with your convenient assertions of blame.

I said you are being inconsistent in the fact you clearly said that "if you disagree with an expert you need to pause and reflect", Goyer and Snyder fall into this category, and if you want to dispute that then, let me say it a different way, they fall into this category relative to you. Thus if you stop being inconsistent and actually apply your own words for to seconds, then: Snyder and Goyer's opinion are worth more than yours and if you disagree with them you need to "pause and reflect..odds are.."

You really wanna hold my hand eh
I'll pass.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Keep on fightin'

 

[DA_Champion]

- delete -

 

[Marvin]

Nobody suggested a dying star. Red giants can last for several hundred million years.

Not really just shows how old krypton sun is, just illustrating what has been said. Nothing complicated about it, atmospheric change shouldn't nullify his powers anyway since JorEl states in the movie his abilities come from drinking in the rays of the earths sun.

He states that and the atmosphere and gravity, the movie later shows it.

That all being said, between the first 30 seconds of the last superman, the public conscious of the matter, and clarity of exposition(I know how picky people can be about wanting things to be clear), I can see why the red star plot was avoided in light of a dying community mining their core to the point of instability.

If atmosphere is the new kryptonite as implied by the world engine battle, it makes a lot more sense than floating rocks making their way to earth between galaxies.

I personally don't any argument for red solar rays, beyond it's "the same"