BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 1

[Marvin]

Dude, while I realize the film did not extrapolate on the red sun bit, the novel acknowledged it, and it's been a part of the lore of Superman for a long time. If Superman is under the radiation frequencies of a red sun, he loses his powers.

Take it up with the comics if this annoys you. This is not Goyer/Snyder's doing. It's the explanation for why Kryptonians are not crazy powerful on their own planet, but how they gain super powers in Earth's atmosphere.

Tempest, what he means to say, is that he would be ok with the sun being red and that explaining the powers but the sun isn't red in MOS.

He is suggesting that their sun looks just like our sun, he's actually suggesting it looks larger and brighter(though this would make it older).
I'd hate to speak for him, but I hope that clears it up.

 

[PacificBoy]

Well, you clearly don't speak for me.

Ok.

You were given a credible end fight with super punches and explosions.

Well, you clearly don't speak for me.

When I said infallible I should have been clear and simply said, non fallible, as in not above reproach. No matter how many times skynet fails it will be a credible villain. No matter how many times they evade the T1000 in the first half of T2, I won't stop lending credence in his ability to do his job. I don't think the audience loses all their faith in a villain after one failure, especially at a start of a film, Given he sheer amount of villain plots that begin with release from incarceration.

Ok. Interesting observations again.

Not when you compare Shannon's portrayal and presence to the film this is remaking. People often compare Shakesphearean portrayals to predecessors as a gauge of effectiveness. Shannon sold immediacy and power in a way stamp didn't imo. If anything stamp sold frailty(see solar man to see the opposite).

Shannon sold immediacy and power to me, but in terms of resilience of character, not in terms of actual physical power and skill.

1. Again, simple answer, he didn't because he couldn't.
2. Curious whom it is you needed him to save before zod started shooting heat vision? Someone falling out of a plane perhaps like in smallville?

For (2), it's the consistency of the telling of Superman's character through his actions. In the Smallville fight, he fought two Kryptonians, all the while bothering to tell people to get indoors and saving the military personnel at his own disadvantage. All the while bothering.

In the Metropolis fight, he didn't save anyone. He didn't seem to bother. That's why I'm going on about needing to clearly show Zod as the unstoppable force, as someone that compels Clark to focus all energies and attention on him. The Metropolis fight needed to be particularly compelling, coming off the back of the exciting Smallville set piece, and the World Engine destruction.

That's why some people have mentioned their exhaustion by the Metropolis fight. It wasn't distinctly compelling, it was more wham-bam CGI. It needed more.

The Metropolis fight needed to be well done as it set the stage for Superman making the most pivotal act of the movie, of his character: taking a life. The central tension, of Zod attempting to kill every living human and Clark doing his darndest to prevent that, the whole point of the fight, was absent from the fight sequence until the train station. It was a bloodless affair, no cuts and bruises, no torn cape -- no struggle.

I said he has her fighting skill set. Not only is it implied by the script(high rankng general boats about his training), but it's shown that he partakes in their particular martial art form. He demonstrates as such on Jor and Kal. Ergo, one can deduce that he presented the same problem as faora, only more so due to super sense and flying.
Again, greater fighting "skill" than Kal.

Yes, he boasts about it, but his actions don't entirely support it. Just like Jor-El is a stated scientist but his actions show him to be something more.

 

[DA_Champion]

Dude, while I realize the film did not extrapolate on the red sun bit, the novel acknowledged it, and it's been a part of the lore of Superman for a long time. If Superman is under the radiation frequencies of a red sun, he loses his powers.

Take it up with the comics if this annoys you. This is not Goyer/Snyder's doing. It's the explanation for why Kryptonians are not crazy powerful on their own planet, but how they gain super powers in Earth's atmosphere.

Can you even read or see? Krypton's sun in the movie is not red (is it red in the novel? Lol), it is a large-looking solar twin. Goyer and Snyder removed this previously sensible element fron the lore. They replaced it with some nonsense about the star's age.

 

[Tempest]

He's harder to write for a LOT of people ;_ http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superman-exclusive-creative-challenges-of-the-man-of-steel/

I can actually understand that mentality. Preconceptions don't really allow ANY leeway for the man in blue. Any mistake/morally questionable decision Batman makes is followed up with "he's Batman, he's a dark and human character who has to make difficult choices and sometimes screws up" while with Superman it's "HOW DARE SUPERMAN do ANYTHING that isn't morally reasonable!"

Not that I'm advocating a morally-grey, dark hero. Just one that can occasionally stumble around once in a while.

Speaking of hard, Goyer said WW would be even HARDER to write than Superman. I think he should stay away from that one, or get LOTS of help

Superman and Batman are both difficult for different reasons. But they're fun to read and watch, even at their worst, so I don't mind too much.

Arrogant!Superman, and Batgod!Batman irritate me enough that I might stop reading/watching whatever I'm absorbed in at the time.

Tempest, what he means to say, is that he would be ok with the sun being red and that explaining the powers but the sun isn't red in MOS.

He is suggesting that their sun looks just like our sun, he's actually suggesting it looks larger and brighter(though this would make it older).
I'd hate to speak for him, but I hope that clears it up.

No. Because I don't understand his objection. A red sun is an older sun, correct? Red suns are not always red, they can be yellow-orangish all the way to red. On a planet, the sun would appear to be certain colors because of particulates in the atmosphere (not an astrology major, but I do remember some science )

So does the color of the sun on the planet surface actually matter? We're told that our sun is younger, and that our atmosphere is more nourishing for Clark.

On another note, I know it was mentioned earlier that Zod learned to control his abilities in a few minutes. Not so.

He was first exposed to Earth's atmosphere at the beginning of the battle in Smallville. Later on, when he goes to retrieve the scout ship, Zod forces himself to go without his breather, and starts to learn to control his vision. He basically allowed himself to be poisoned with the atmosphere in order to be able to over-come the challenges he faced on Earth.

 

[PacificBoy]

He's harder to write for a LOT of people ;_ http://voicesfromkrypton.net/superman-exclusive-creative-challenges-of-the-man-of-steel/

I can actually understand that mentality. Preconceptions don't really allow ANY leeway for the man in blue. Any mistake/morally questionable decision Batman makes is followed up with "he's Batman, he's a dark and human character who has to make difficult choices and sometimes screws up" while with Superman it's "HOW DARE SUPERMAN do ANYTHING that isn't morally reasonable!"

Not that I'm advocating a morally-grey, dark hero. Just one that can occasionally stumble around once in a while.

Speaking of hard, Goyer said WW would be even HARDER to write than Superman. I think he should stay away from that one, or get LOTS of help

Totally agree. Is Supes possibly the hardest superhero to write? The first superhero, the pop cultural icon, the walking, talking (and flying) deux ex machina.

 

[DA_Champion]

Tempest, what he means to say, is that he would be ok with the sun being red and that explaining the powers but the sun isn't red in MOS.

He is suggesting that their sun looks just like our sun, he's actually suggesting it looks larger and brighter(though this would make it older).
I'd hate to speak for him, but I hope that clears it up.

I don't want to get into details that nobody cared about. The points are:

1) I don't know why they did not hire consultants to spot check these details. As an example, I know lucasfilm does.
2) they replaced something simple (colour of nearest star) with something more complicated and less logical (age of nearest star and gas content of atmosphere).
3) they tell us krypton has a very high gravity but show us normal gravity.
4) they tell us krypton has a different sun, but show us a very similar sun.

 

[Marvin]

For (2), it's the consistency of the telling of Superman's character through his actions. In the Smallville fight, he fought two Kryptonians, all the while bothering to tell people to get indoors and saving the military personnel at his own disadvantage. All the while bothering.

In the Metropolis fight, he didn't save anyone. He didn't seem to bother. That's why I'm going on about needing to clearly show Zod as the unstoppable force, as someone that compels Clark to focus all energies and attention on him. The Metropolis fight needed to be particularly compelling, coming off the back of the exciting Smallville set piece, and the World Engine destruction.

Not sure telling people to get inside during the metropolis battle would have solved your particular issue(unlike smallville seems like they could have figured that out for themselves). I still endorse the idea that clark not being given moment to catch a break as indicative of a greater menace, half the dialogue in the doomsday fight was about superman not having time to do anything, to the point of not even trying(cept for lois).

The Metropolis fight needed to be well done as it set the stage for Superman making the most pivotal act of the movie, of his character: taking a life. The central tension, of Zod attempting to kill every living human and Clark doing his darndest to prevent that, the whole point of the fight, was absent from the fight sequence until the train station. It was a bloodless affair, no cuts and bruises, no torn cape -- no struggle.

Every fight ever put to cinema could benefit from more "tension" the question is whether it generally had enough. Which is a matter of opinion yay.. Superman fighting with zod with absolute focus and not saving people isn't all that different from the traditional "final boss" fight. It's just some people want to see "isms" from lore, some even at the cost of logic as seen in the celebrated film this one is a remake off(STM2), the one where villains took coffee breaks and applauded superman saving people and was resolved with superman "bouncing". point being there was little controversy there because this passion for tension due to life saving is simply that strong, all the boxes were checked.

What I find interesting is how the need for superman saving folks making a fight more interesting, conflicts with the popular suggestion that superman moves the fight to population free areas. I personally feel the audience suffers from lore conditioning to a point that the situation presented in this isn't being judged fairly. Zod doesn't need to lunge at humans to sell that he wasn't joking when he told clark he was going to kill them all. Seems like a no brainer. I understand a villain trying to get away by tossing hostages but I'm not all that tied to the idea of a passion fueled fight needing as such. I suppose that comes with the territory of superman fans.
I personally think it's cowardly, not the type of think one expects from an credible villain if you will. Zod mentioned honor mid way though this film, hiding behind innocents seems beyond him imo.

When wolverine fought kelly hu, they were pretty much two gods going at it and no civilians being saved and no sign of lasting damage. Great fight on stakes alone. On that level alone one could be satisfied.

That being said I wouldn't have minded a bloodier affair, tired of movie producers not wanting to rip capes and such.

Yes, he boasts about it, but his actions don't entirely support it. Just like Jor-El is a stated scientist but his actions show him to be something more.

Superman loses out in multiple hand to hand exchanges with zod. I take that as evidence of the obvious; Superman is dealing with another skilled Kryptonian warrior.

 

[DA_Champion]

- delete -

 

[Marvin]

I don't want to get into details that nobody cared about. The points are:

1) I don't know why they did not hire consultants to spot check these details. As an example, I know lucasfilm does.
2) they replaced something simple (colour of nearest star) with something more complicated and less logical (age of nearest star and gas content of atmosphere).
3) they tell us krypton has a very high gravity but show us normal gravity.
4) they tell us krypton has a different sun, but show us a very similar sun.

1. Almost every Hollywood film hires consultants. What you perhaps mean to say is why didn't their consultants catch that. Why didn't nolan even... Probably because unlike you, they didn't see a fault with it.
I love the mention of lucasfilm...things get past their consultants as well.
Notice of all the dozens of planets featured the gravity is almost exactly the same? Go figure. with the exception of venus(barely so) none of the our 7 neighbors have our gravity. There there is the issue of the death star...I suppose there is artificial systems in place, they think of everything.

2. Less logical? Their re-interpretation of this fiction has about the same logic as it always has. Lest you have an equation for metabolizing solar radiation you could share...
-You don't know the specific properties of their fictional atmosphere nor the effect it has on modified advanced geneology...

3. They showed a gravity discrepancy in an identical way they did in the John Carter film and fiction. With liberties.

4. They tell us they have a different sun they show a different sun that looks similar to ours.
-For such a pressing observation, I would be surprised if you could find even a hand full of reviews among the "consensus" of negative ones that mention this.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

Can you even read or see? Krypton's sun in the movie is not red (is it red in the novel? Lol), it is a large-looking solar twin. Goyer and Snyder removed this previously sensible element fron the lore. They replaced it with some nonsense about the star's age.

And the atmospheric change has a grater effect on kryptonians than the emission of solar rays. Which doesn't make a lick of sense to be honest.

 

[PacificBoy]

Not sure telling people to get inside during the metropolis battle would have solved your particular issue(unlike smallville seems like they could have figured that out for themselves). I still endorse the idea that clark not being given moment to catch a break as indicative of a greater menace, half the dialogue in the doomsday fight was about superman not having time to do anything, to the point of not even trying(cept for lois).

Not so much the same acts, but the same intentions. Superman's intentions. I'd have liked to have seen Clark literally trying to catch his breath. The choreography was lacking in this regard, the overpowering menace of Zod's threat that needed for him to be put down. It needed to be more visceral, raw than the videogamey sequence we got.

(Can't remember the Doomsday fight. I might want to reread it now you've brought it up!)

Every fight ever put to cinema could benefit from more "tension" the question is whether it generally had enough. Which is a matter of opinion yay.. Superman fighting with zod with absolute focus and not saving people isn't all that different from the traditional "final boss" fight.

Certainly. But a huge difference from any other traditional final boss fight is that Superman tends to fight the insurmountable odds for the people. To reference Rocky again, a Superman final boss fight is like Rocky in the ring with Drago -- and with Adrian and Duke -- with Rocky attempting to stop the Siberian Bull from hurting the ones he care for, the people. All in the same ring!

It's just some people want to see "isms" from lore, some even at the cost of logic as seen in the celebrated film this one is a remake off(STM2), the one where villains took coffee breaks and applauded superman saving people and was resolved with superman "bouncing". point being there was little controversy there because this passion for tension due to life saving is simply that strong, all the boxes were checked.

Well, STM2 is another animal, and a discussion deserving of its own thread. Logic in a movie, especially a Superman movie, is dependent on purpose of story though.

What I find interesting is how the need for superman saving folks making a fight more interesting, conflicts with the popular suggestion that superman moves the fight to population free areas. I personally feel the audience suffers from lore conditioning to a point that the situation presented in this isn't being judged fairly. Zod doesn't need to lunge at humans to sell that he wasn't joking when he told clark he was going to kill them all. Seems like a no brainer.

But that's telling more than showing. The threat was verbalized. To fear for our hero, it needed to be felt more.

I thought having a no-holds barred battle within a builtup area like a city was kinda cool, but Metropolis was a lousy backdrop as it hasn't been established as a 'character' in the movie, so the emotional stakes were absent -- the tension and human element were missing -- and in the buildings collapsing between superpunches, Metropolis felt videogamey.

This is Superman, after all, a degree of lore conditioning, rightly or wrongly, is to be expected in the audience. Who went in the theatre not thinking it was a story about Superman, but a story about a man literally being made of steel?

I understand a villain trying to get away by tossing hostages but I'm not all that tied to the idea of a passion fueled fight needing as such. I suppose that comes with the territory of superman fans.

Maybe.

I personally think it's cowardly, not the type of think one expects from an credible villain if you will. Zod mentioned honor mid way though this film, hiding behind innocents seems beyond him imo.

Not using them as meat shields, just going directly for the kill which he'll said he'll do.

When wolverine fought kelly hu, they were pretty much two gods going at it and no civilians being saved and no sign of lasting damage. Great fight on stakes alone. On that level alone one could be satisfied.

But that's Wolverine's MO. He snuck away from the main group to search for Stryker and found Lady Deathstrike. He's a lone wolf through and through.

That being said I wouldn't have minded a bloodier affair, tired of movie producers not wanting to rip capes and such.

Agree.

Superman loses out in multiple hand to hand exchanges with zod. I take that as evidence of the obvious; Superman is dealing with another skilled Kryptonian warrior.

We just have to agree to disagree here.

 

[TheScarecrow]

Can you even read or see? Krypton's sun in the movie is not red (is it red in the novel? Lol), it is a large-looking solar twin. Goyer and Snyder removed this previously sensible element fron the lore. They replaced it with some nonsense about the star's age.

Ummm...what dictates the colour of a star is its age...

So our Sun, when it gets older, will become a Red Giant...

Superman getting his powers because our Sun is younger than Kryptons is not at all inconsistent with red vs yellow.

 

[spider-neil]

My opinion of Goyer is he should be a consultant rather than script/screenplay writer because he has great ideas and has a vast knowledge of comics. For instance, no question Bane breaking the Batman, the 'you complete me' aspect of the Batman/Joker relationship, 'So that's what that feels like', all of that comes from Goyer but his dialogue is clunky and very unnatural sounding.

You watch a movie like ASM and say what you want about the action (the movie's biggest flaw imho) the characters in the movie act and SOUND like REAL people.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

1. Almost every Hollywood film hires consultants. What you perhaps mean to say is why didn't their consultants catch that. Why didn't nolan even... Probably because unlike you, they didn't see a fault with it.
I love the mention of lucasfilm...things get past their consultants as well.
Notice of all the dozens of planets featured the gravity is almost exactly the same? Go figure. with the exception of venus(barely so) none of the our 7 neighbors have our gravity. There there is the issue of the death star...I suppose there is artificial systems in place, they think of everything.

2. Less logical? Their re-interpretation of this fiction has about the same logic as it always has. Lest you have an equation for metabolizing solar radiation you could share...
-You don't know the specific properties of their fictional atmosphere nor the effect it has on modified advanced geneology...

3. They showed a gravity discrepancy in an identical way they did in the John Carter film and fiction. With liberties.

4. They tell us they have a different sun they show a different sun that looks similar to ours.
-For such a pressing observation, I would be surprised if you could find even a hand full of reviews among the "consensus" of negative ones that mention this.

Do you grasp that atmospheric change doesn't make a lick of sense as to why they would lose their power based on JorEl description to Clark on why he has powers. Again weak story telling, telling the audience one thing and then conveniently switching it up to suit a point in the story.

 

[Marvin]

My opinion of Goyer is he should be a consultant rather than script/screenplay writer because he has great ideas and has a vast knowledge of comics. For instance, no question Bane breaking the Batman, the 'you complete me' aspect of the Batman/Joker relationship, 'So that's what that feels like', all of that comes from Goyer but his dialogue is clunky and very unnatural sounding.

I would like to attribute the amount of times I read goyer is better at ideas the plotting to truth based observation but I fear it's becoming a product of popular internet propaganda.

The reality is half the people that share this sentiment really have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. In this very post we are given the suggestion that goyer wrote dialogue for all tdk films?

 

[Marvin]

Do you grasp that atmospheric change doesn't make a lick of sense as to why they would lose their power based on JorEl description to Clark on why he has powers. Again weak story telling, telling the audience one thing and then conveniently switching it up to suit a point in the story.

I don't grasp it no, please explain.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

I would like to attribute the amount of times I read goyer is better at ideas the plotting to truth based observation but I fear it's becoming a product of popular internet propaganda.

The reality is half the people that share this sentiment really have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. In this very post we are given the suggestion that goyer wrote dialogue for all tdk films?

It's pretty easy to spot the Goyer like lines. "Does it come in black", "nice coat". "I just think his kind of hot".

 

[LordofhouseEl]

I don't grasp it no, please explain.

Very well Marvin, it's pretty simple to be honest. JorEl tells KalEl that his abilities are due to earth sun and him drinking in the radiation. Then a few minutes later an atmospheric change makes him powerless? Lol this all occurs while KalEl is in even closer proximity of the sun than when he was on earth?

 

[Marvin]

It's pretty easy to spot the Goyer like lines. "Does it come in black", "nice coat". "I just think his kind of hot".

ignoring that, that sort of ilk exists across this genre and doesn't seem synonymous with Goyer alone.
It doesn't address the issue.

 

[TheScarecrow]

Very well Marvin, it's pretty simple to be honest. JorEl tells KalEl that his abilities are due to earth sun and him drinking in the radiation. Then a few minutes later an atmospheric change makes him powerless? Lol this all occurs while KalEl is in even closer proximity of the sun than when he was on earth?

You mean the same as kryptonite makes him powerless even when he's in the sun?

 

[LordofhouseEl]

ignoring that, that sort of ilk exists across this genre and doesn't seem synonymous with Goyer alone.
It doesn't address the issue.

True was merely pointing out that a person can usually tell when Goyer is the one on the drivers seat in regards to dialogue.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

You mean the same as kryptonite makes him powerless even when he's in the sun?

Kryptonite doesn't make him powerless just weakens him due to radiation I am also willing to accept this as it's part of the lore in the mythology and works in regards to that universe. An atmospheric change in this case would consist of a change in gases in the atmosphere. With Supermans lung capacity and invulnerability under the influence of a yellow star he shouldn't even feel the change.

 

[Marvin]

Very well Marvin, it's pretty simple to be honest. JorEl tells KalEl that his abilities are due to earth sun and him drinking in the radiation. Then a few minutes later an atmospheric change makes him powerless? Lol this all occurs while KalEl is in even closer proximity of the sun than when he was on earth?

You are implying Jor El doesn't make mention of the nourishment derived from the particular our atmosphere. Unless Jor has a different dictionary on Krypton, there seems to be a correlation there.

Again, debating comic book science fiction...
Them stating sun derived powers, contrasted with atmosphere derived powers contrasted with spider bites and toxic spill derived powers. The fact is jor el pointed to it without breaking it down, unless you have some sort of equation for the bio chemistry at play here...seems fickle and selective.

 

[Marvin]

Kryptonite doesn't make him powerless just weakens him due to radiation...

Kryptonite does all sorts of things to him. From superman returns.......kinda stuff, to piercing his flesh thus making him instantaneously vulnerable...then there is the matter of the different colors..
Again, you are being selective.

With Supermans lung capacity and invulnerability under the influence of a yellow star he shouldn't even feel the change.

...unless he's vulnerable to it.

 

[LordofhouseEl]

You are implying Jor El doesn't make mention of the nourishment derived from the particular our atmosphere. Unless Jor has a different dictionary on Krypton, there seems to be a correlation there.

Again, debating comic book science fiction...
Them stating sun derived powers, contrasted with atmosphere derived powers contrasted with spider bites and toxic spill derived powers. The fact is jor el pointed to it without breaking it down, unless you have some sort of equation for the bio chemistry at play here...seems fickle and selective.

I am implying it makes no sense even within the accepted acknowledgment that this is a fictional world with fictional laws and science. If Superman started moving things with his mind and started reading minds. People would be up in arms about it because it's not what has been established for the character within the context of that fictional world. Superman already has a mythology and history behind his abilities that is widely accepted and acknowledged, the film even tries to emulate it but then switches it up for sake of plot. That to me is bad story writing and should be rightfully picked apart.