BvS David S. Goyer IS the Script Writer! - Part 2

[Space Ghost]

Past productions mean little...Look at John Ridley's films before 12 Years a Slave or Chris Terrio's before Argo.

There has to be a reason that he's constantly getting work...is a constant guest speaker on screenwriting at USC, and give lectures on screenwriting at BAFTA and BFI...if he was as crappy a screenwriter as people believe is he would constantly getting work.

You don´t know any other bad writers and directors who constantly get work?

 

[Marvin]

Let me try to clarify: Watchmen and 300 were primarily praised for being exactly like their respective source material, copying the shots and story beats and dialogue almost verbatim. By contrast, his one attempt at an original story (LOTG was based on a book series), where he had full creative control, was Sucker Punch, arguably his worst film. He's a style-over-substance director, and trying to argue otherwise is just silly.

So judging his ability on original properties with one example? If every director was judged on a singular film..safe to say that wouldn't make any sense. Snyder also made dawn of the dead.

He could have found some high end screen play or stephen king book and did what others have been known to do. Perhaps a true story or bio pic. He was given full control after a string of success with a studio and he made a divisive art film. I'll avoid getting into my views on the matter but it's safe to say art lands on different people differently. I don't think he's all style over substance, I think he tried something out and it had alot of style to it.

As far as I know, GL isn't part of the official DCCU yet, so that leaves Man of Steel, Batman vs. Superman, and Justice League (as the ones that have been officially announced). All three have been/are being written by David Goyer, two have Zack Snyder as director, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised at this point if they threw Snyder into JL to make it three in a row. These are all very different properties, but they're being made by essentially the same talent pool, and that shouldn't be.

I didn't know JL had been announced, complete with writer and director.

As for talking about what we actually know, Batman had it's director, Superman has his director(cameo's et all). You bringing up nolans name in the producer slot is no different than bringing up the consistent marvel producers on all those films or the idea goyer has a hand in writing most of these dc films(in some way) being no different than whedon and his confirmed script doctoring on a couple 'different' marvel films.

 

[roach]

JL hasn't been announced...the only film announced was Batman vs Superman...we know it's leading to JL but they haven't announced it yet

 

[EssayM]

http://www.deadline.com/2013/06/man-of-steel-sequel-underway-with-zack-snyder-and-david-s-goyer/

"Goyer’s deal is part of a huge 3-picture deal he signed at Warner Bros for Man Of Steel, the sequel, and Justice League with Superman."

 

[roach]

http://www.deadline.com/2013/06/man-of-steel-sequel-underway-with-zack-snyder-and-david-s-goyer/

"Goyer’s deal is part of a huge 3-picture deal he signed at Warner Bros for Man Of Steel, the sequel, and Justice League with Superman."

They are speculating on why those three films...however Warner Bros has not put out an official announcement saying that film was coming out.

 

[ЯɘvlveR]

for all intents and purposes that seems the direction in which they are heading though.

 

[Marvin]

The speculation game works both ways:
I actually see Affleck and his team heading up batman coming out of this and someone else doing the wonder woman solo gal signed up for and goyer being more and more relegated to story and less scripting given his massive work load and ongoing projects.

As for if Snyder and Goyer will be working on justice league and superman and their subsequent sequels, I don't see that lasting. It will be one or the other imo.

 

[roach]

You don´t know any other bad writers and directors who constantly get work?

bad writers and directors get work all the time...they aren't asked to teach the next crop of writers and directors

 

[roach]

for all intents and purposes that seems the direction in which they are heading though.

It's the direction they are going in but the only DC film that was announced was Batman vs Superman

 

[weezerspider]

You don´t know any other bad writers and directors who constantly get work?

Yeah, exactly. Hollywood just cares about money, not talent. People like stupid ****. No one's going to say Justin Bieber is some great artist because he sells a **** ton of albums, so why do people find the need to cling to B.O. numbers to determine a film's quality? Stupid **** sells. I get it from the studio's side, they want money, but Goyer certainly isn't an artist contributing to the art that is film making. He's making pretty mediocre to bad films that happen to make money, so he keeps getting a job and good for him. 4 of his 15 films are positive on Rotten Tomatoes and three of those were co-written with either Chris Nolan, Jonah Nolan or both, so only 1 of 13 films he's done by himself has not been rotten on RT. That's a downright terrible track record. The Dark Knight Trilogy, which Begins is the only film he has more than 'story' credit, is the one thing that has stood out and I highly doubt anyone is going to be like: Yeah those films were successful because of Goyer. His average RT score is 45%....Yikes. He's not a good screenwriter, nor has he ever been a good screenwriter. He comes up with good plot points, but he can't develop those points on paper into a strong screenplay.

Snyder does more than add cool looking snow mo but that would require an appreciation of the craft. However you said snyder needs his stories already existing, I simply added that all directors do, many of which adapt from pre-existing success...etc. If you are talking about adapting from pre-existing story boards, well that's hardly a snyder exclusive.

You're arguing his better films rely on needing to be adapted from graphic novels, I'd argue his better films rely on needing to be adapted from good material, same with any director. I think had he been given the TDK script he would have turned out his best film, but that's me.

Great directors are always involved in the script process. They may pick a spec script to make, but then they tweak it themselves, or they co-write or write one themselves. Many of the great directors write/co-write their own material: Orson Welles, Stanley Kubrick, The Coen Brothers, Richard Linklater, Paul Thomas Anderson, Wes Anderson, Francois Truffaut, John Huston, and Frank Capra just to name a few.

Spielberg, Scorsese and Hitchcock are probably the biggest directors who don't typically write their own stuff, but they are still very much involved with the process. Spielberg directly wrote the story for Sugarland Express and the screenplay for Close Encounters. He sat in the room with George Lucas and Kasdan and helped come up with story elements from Raiders of The Lost Ark(which is a process most directors do). On Jaws, he had the writer on set during the whole production and he would work with him during breaks to tweak dialogue and tweak certain elements of the script during the shoot.

Scorsese wrote Mean Streets, and officially co-wrote Goodfellas, Age of Innocence and Casino. He also co-wrote the final draft of Raging Bull with Robert DeNiro, but couldn't get official credit due to SAG rules.

I don't think Snyder is an awful director, but it's clear throughout the history of artistic cinema, that most great directors are involved with the screenwriting process and don't just simply get a spec script and work with that without working some things out. Also, storyboards are written based off the director's vision. Directors don't walk in, look at some storyboards someone else randomly made, and direct off that. They describe their vision to the artists who make the boards. Comics have aspects of visual mediums. When a guy's best films are taken directly from comic book panels and exact story lines from said comics, you could definitely argue he has a lack of a strong artistic vision that you see from the auteurs, because he DID, in a way, walk up to someone else's storyboards and direct off that. That's different then adapting a novel. Snyder is a 12 year old boy type of director, not unlike George Lucas. He gets the spectacle right, but his characters are hollow and the character moments are completely lost in favor of cool action sequences. I think Lucas has been in love before, but he'd rather show Anakin fight then build something real with Padme. Similarly, I think Snyder is a nice guy who has real emotions, but he has no idea how to tap into that and make us care for the characters. He'd rather just show us guys throwing each other through buildings.

 

[weezerspider]

bad writers and directors get work all the time...they aren't asked to teach the next crop of writers and directors

.......Yeah they are. Most of the good ones don't have the time to teach, nor do they particularly want to, nor does any institution want to pay them to do so. Occasionally Scorsese or Aronofsky comes to a student thing, but typically, its always a bunch of 'big names' in the industry who aren't particularly good, they just have name recognition to sell tickets. With Goyer they can sell 'the guy who helped write TDKT' and they'll sell tickets. No one wants to talk about the **** he's done, which outweighs the good tremendously.

Not to mention, many of the studios set up these things, and they want to make money, so they'll find whoever's films make money and try and get them to teach the new comers how to make bankable films. It once again comes back to the fact that B.O. success doesn't equal artistic merit.

 

[TheBat812]

.......Yeah they are. Most of the good ones don't have the time to teach, nor do they particularly want to, nor does any institution want to pay them to do so. Occasionally Scorsese or Aronofsky comes to a student thing, but typically, its always a bunch of 'big names' in the industry who aren't particularly good, they just have name recognition to sell tickets. With Goyer they can sell 'the guy who helped write TDKT' and they'll sell tickets. No one wants to talk about the **** he's done, which outweighs the good tremendously.

Not to mention, many of the studios set up these things, and they want to make money, so they'll find whoever's films make money and try and get them to teach the new comers how to make bankable films. It once again comes back to the fact that B.O. success doesn't equal artistic merit.

There's a huge difference between being a bad screenwriter and not being a great screenwriter. Goyer's strength is broad storytelling, not the details. It's a skill in itself and he's arguably one of the most successful in the world at it. That certainly counts for something.

 

[Space Ghost]

I don´t care if he is bad or simply not great. Lol. Don´t you think a movie like BvS needs the best screenwriter they can find? I mean, a really REALLY GOOD screenwriter? I think the movie deserves that. Try put Batman and Superman in the big screen together without a great writer behind and you´ll see what happens. Firework extravaganza with no substance.

 

[The Guard]

I don't like this "all of nothing" assessment of David Goyer that happens a lot. People act like he has some major failing in a particular area, and that's just not really the case. The reason Goyer has been successful of late is that he has displayed a solid understanding of pretty every area of filmmaking, especially when it comes to the story and screenwriting process. He seems to be a hard worker; he may excel in none of them, but he is solid to good in almost all of them. I don't understand why people need to pretend like the man is somehow a brilliant storyteller who doesn't understand dialogue or characterization, or that he needs "help" to come up with good characters, etc. What he is...is a fairly versatile storyteller. He is often good at a number of things, in terms of both broad and detailed storytelling. He also writes some good and varied character dialogue, despite the occasional clunker.

 

[EssayM]

Yeah, if you're going with such an ambitious project, you definitely want A-list talent.

EDIT: Meant to be quoting Space Ghost there.

 

[The Guard]

Also, storyboards are written based off the director's vision. Directors don't walk in, look at some storyboards someone else randomly made, and direct off that. They describe their vision to the artists who make the boards.

Snyder tends to be heavily involved in this part of the process. He's also generally involved in the scripting process. He definitely was in WATCHMEN.

He's going to be more involved in the scripting and story for this movie, which isn't based off a single work. We'll get a better sense of his role in things and his ability to adapt when the movie comes out.

Comics have aspects of visual mediums. When a guy's best films are taken directly from comic book panels and exact story lines from said comics, you could definitely argue he has a lack of a strong artistic vision that you see from the auteurs, because he DID, in a way, walk up to someone else's storyboards and direct off that.

But if you believe this, then you could potentially argue that the most successful elements of Nolan's Batfilms had little to do with Nolan and his "vision", and were more about the strength of the source material. Even he has aped some imagery, too, over the years.

Snyder is a 12 year old boy type of director, not unlike George Lucas. He gets the spectacle right, but his characters are hollow and the character moments are completely lost in favor of cool action sequences.

No. This is simply not true. Snyder's better films have both style and substance in them. This is an argument that I honestly cannot believe people are still making about the man.

 

[EssayM]

I don't like this "all of nothing" assessment of David Goyer that happens a lot. People act like he has some major failing in a particular area, and that's just not really the case. The reason Goyer has been successful of late is that he has displayed a solid understanding of pretty every area of filmmaking, especially when it comes to the story and screenwriting process. He seems to be a hard worker; he may excel in none of them, but he is solid to good in almost all of them. I don't understand why people need to pretend like the man is somehow a brilliant storyteller who doesn't understand dialogue or characterization, or that he needs "help" to come up with good characters, etc. What he is...is a fairly versatile storyteller. He is often good at a number of things, in terms of both broad and detailed storytelling. He also writes some good and varied character dialogue, despite the occasional clunker.

Funnily enough, I think you could make a better case for him being a terrible director than a terrible writer. Blade: Trinity, The Unborn, and The Invisible all had him behind the camera.

 

[The Guard]

He's not a very good director thus far. But he's been successful as a producer and writer lately.

 

[Marvin]

Great directors are always involved in the script process. They may pick a spec script to make, but then they tweak it themselves, or they co-write or write one themselves...

...Spielberg, Scorsese and Hitchcock are probably the biggest directors who don't typically write their own stuff, but they are still very much involved with the process.

Clearly I was referring to the latter group of directors that don't take writer credits on projects. We can speculate in circles how much story input they all have infused into the pre-shooting script, but without confirmation it's kinda pointless and will no doubt contribute to the ever present overlooking of hollywood writers from fans.

I don't think Snyder is an awful director, but it's clear throughout the history of artistic cinema, that most great directors are involved with the screenwriting process and don't just simply get a spec script and work with that without working some things out.

We should note that between snyders two direct adaptations, there exists various writing/story/beat changes. And this is where the speculation game begins.

Also, storyboards are written based off the director's vision. Directors don't walk in, look at some storyboards someone else randomly made, and direct off that. They describe their vision to the artists who make the boards. Comics have aspects of visual mediums. When a guy's best films are taken directly from comic book panels and exact story lines from said comics, you could definitely argue he has a lack of a strong artistic vision that you see from the auteurs, because he DID, in a way, walk up to someone else's storyboards and direct off that.

No disrespect but I think that's crap. I don't only say that as a commercial boarder waiting for feedback from a director at this point in time but as someone that appreciates the countless compositional decisions and confirmations that exists between the DP/Director/and the various film artists. For example: the simple fact that any old live action scene has a great deal more story reel panels than a 5 panel spread in any graphic novel.

If you listen to Lauren Montgomery(animation director) or any of her like about the work on WB Direct to video adaptations, they are keen to note just how much raw boarding is to be done from any one book. Bringing the book to life can vary between poor visual directors and say the more cinematic asian influenced directors. And that's just animation.

I also say that noticing that snyders artistic visuals remain consistent whether he's 'copying' boards from comic books or 'his original ones'.
The insinuation that the man walks up to and directs 'off of someone else' storyboards(as they exist in a graphic novel) is about as short sighted as the same one made about a director handed a script imo. More over, the much cheered opening to watchmen wasn't found in any novel...I simply don't agree I suppose.

I think Snyder is a nice guy who has real emotions, but he has no idea how to tap into that and make us care for the characters. He'd rather just show us guys throwing each other through buildings.

Superman threw faora through one building. That being said I take it you are clearly speaking for yourself in this observation even with that generalized phrasing, there are plenty of people that feel plenty of things watching his films, even if they are striped down to the level of music video for such things elicit several emotions themselves. Speaking for myself I cared plenty for the personal struggle of Leonidas towards the end there. The Hollis mason deleted scenes...But I suppose all credit would be due to the artists that made the original story boards...

 

[MrsKent26]

Superman threw faora through one building. That being said I take it you are clearly speaking for yourself in this observation even with that generalized phrasing, there are plenty of people that feel plenty of things watching his films, even if they are striped down to the level of music video for such things elicit several emotions themselves. Speaking for myself I cared plenty for the personal struggle of Leonidas towards the end there. The Hollis mason deleted scenes...But I suppose all credit would be due to the artists that made the original story boards...

Leonidas's final moments in 300 were very moving for me. When people make statements like "Snyder can't do drama at all! All he cares about is action," it doesn't ring true for me. It would seem more accurate to say that sometimes Snyder doesn't capitalize on opportunities for emotional scenes as well as he could. Saying he never does drama or can't do it seems like an exaggeration.

 

[EssayM]

Leonidas's final moments in 300 were very moving for me. When people make statements like "Snyder can't do drama at all! All he cares about is action," it doesn't ring true for me. It would seem more accurate to say that sometimes Snyder doesn't capitalize on opportunities for emotional scenes as well as he could. Saying he never does drama or can't do it seems like an exaggeration.

Curious, as I haven't seen 300 or Watchmen in a while: would you say the emotional scenes are frequent, or just a few moments here and there?

 

[Marvin]

Leonidas's final moments in 300 were very moving for me. When people make statements like "Snyder can't do drama at all! All he cares about is action," it doesn't ring true for me. It would seem more accurate to say that sometimes Snyder doesn't capitalize on opportunities for emotional scenes as well as he could. Saying he never does drama or can't do it seems like an exaggeration.

Yea there's lots of things we could all personally say about the choices and effectiveness of filmmakers/artists, it's hard to do such things in the realm of art without brash generalizations imo.

Like saying Pollock's paintings don't evoke anything in people.

I think the internet has made this sort of thing common place.

 

[MrsKent26]

Curious, as I haven't seen 300 or Watchmen in a while: would you say the emotional scenes are frequent, or just a few moments here and there?

What difference does it make? I said that sometimes Snyder doesn't capitalize on emotional moments as well as he could. My statement was about folks that think he can't/doesn't do drama at all. I said that clearly in my last post.

Yea there's lots of things we could all personally say about the choices and effectiveness of filmmakers/artists, it's hard to do such things in the realm of art without brash generalizations imo.

Like saying Pollock's paintings don't evoke anything in people.

I think the internet has made this sort of thing common place.

It has. The internet has its own vernacular and it has decided that blanket statements like "Snyder can't do emotional scenes at all because he's too caught up in visuals" are fact.

 

[DA_Champion]

What difference does it make? I said that sometimes Snyder doesn't capitalize on emotional moments as well as he could. My statement was about folks that think he can't/doesn't do drama at all. I said that clearly in my last post.




It has. The internet has its own vernacular and it has decided that blanket statements like "Snyder can't do emotional scenes at all because he's too caught up in visuals" are fact.

It is a false dichotomy. People assume directors can do visuals, story, but not both, as a default. It is one of those dumb dichotomies. You can be good with words, numbers, but not both. You can be beautiful, smart, but not both. Etc.

In Snyder's case, people do not understand his movies sometimes, which makes the problem worse. I've read people describe 300 as a gay porn, which is quite shallow. There is significant depth to that movie.

Then there are the ignorant people who called Sucker Punch a "*********ory fantasy".

 

[weezerspider]

Snyder tends to be heavily involved in this part of the process. He's also generally involved in the scripting process. He definitely was in WATCHMEN.

He's going to be more involved in the scripting and story for this movie, which isn't based off a single work. We'll get a better sense of his role in things and his ability to adapt when the movie comes out.



But if you believe this, then you could potentially argue that the most successful elements of Nolan's Batfilms had little to do with Nolan and his "vision", and were more about the strength of the source material. Even he has aped some imagery, too, over the years.



No. This is simply not true. Snyder's better films have both style and substance in them. This is an argument that I honestly cannot believe people are still making about the man.

Clearly I was referring to the latter group of directors that don't take writer credits on projects. We can speculate in circles how much story input they all have infused into the pre-shooting script, but without confirmation it's kinda pointless and will no doubt contribute to the ever present overlooking of hollywood writers from fans.

We should note that between snyders two direct adaptations, there exists various writing/story/beat changes. And this is where the speculation game begins.


No disrespect but I think that's crap. I don't only say that as a commercial boarder waiting for feedback from a director at this point in time but as someone that appreciates the countless compositional decisions and confirmations that exists between the DP/Director/and the various film artists. For example: the simple fact that any old live action scene has a great deal more story reel panels than a 5 panel spread in any graphic novel.

If you listen to Lauren Montgomery(animation director) or any of her like about the work on WB Direct to video adaptations, they are keen to note just how much raw boarding is to be done from any one book. Bringing the book to life can vary between poor visual directors and say the more cinematic asian influenced directors. And that's just animation.

I also say that noticing that snyders artistic visuals remain consistent whether he's 'copying' boards from comic books or 'his original ones'.
The insinuation that the man walks up to and directs 'off of someone else' storyboards(as they exist in a graphic novel) is about as short sighted as the same one made about a director handed a script imo. More over, the much cheered opening to watchmen wasn't found in any novel...I simply don't agree I suppose.
Superman threw faora through one building. That being said I take it you are clearly speaking for yourself in this observation even with that generalized phrasing, there are plenty of people that feel plenty of things watching his films, even if they are striped down to the level of music video for such things elicit several emotions themselves. Speaking for myself I cared plenty for the personal struggle of Leonidas towards the end there. The Hollis mason deleted scenes...But I suppose all credit would be due to the artists that made the original story boards...

None of Nolan's films are shot-for-shot(panel for panel) adaptions of any Batman comics. Snyder's 300 and Watchmen are in many cases.My point was against the idea that adapting from a source material shouldn't be a knock on him. I think a direct adaption of a particular comic can be taken more literally than a direct adaption of a novel, like The Godfather, where the original author didn't have 'storyboards' in the original work. Therefore, I can understand this knock more so than people who often adapt novels or something. I don't think I made my point very clear. I don't particularly BELIEVE this, but I can understand why many people have this sort of perception of him. I personally love Watchmen and enjoyed Man Of Steel for the most part.

I think the guy has talent, but I still definitely believe he lacks the emotional points in his films. Watchmen was pretty good, but everything else he's done seems to lack any real character moments. Man of Steel tried, but didn't really get much aside from a scene or two between Michael Shannon and Russel Crowe. As for his writing ability, the only thing he himself wrote as an original idea was Sucker Punch, which was a complete piece of ****. I'd say overall, he's got potential and I'm 100% fine with him directing this film. I'm not OK with Goyer though. Everyone saying "Goyer's serviceable"....is that our expectations? Serviceable? This is ****ING BATMAN AND SUPERMAN! GET ME AN OSCAR WINNER!!!!....which Chris Terrio is.