Days of Future Past Days of Future Past News and Discussion - - - - - - Part 15

[The Original Bamfer]

Thing of having the Phoenix created earlier in her youth is it defeats the purpose of that name.

In the books she effectively died as was reborn as the Phoenix. The name couldn't be more apt in that scenario. They could have done the same with X3, and that's certainly the impression I got from Xavier's little smile at the end of X2 when the bird shape formed under the lake, like he sensed she was somehow coming back and was happy about it (not in fear of it).*

As something that manifested first in her childhood though...It's just a name that persona chose and loses it's meaning and relevance.

*I don't know what Singer had planned for his version but I didn't think the Phoenix being a pre-existing persona was a part of that?

Regarding actual psychology, a separate personality can take years before it finds out who it is just like we do. The "Phoenix" persona could've started out as a quiet, maybe even catatonic in Jean's younger years, only to truly reveal itself at the appropriate time.

 

[DigificWriter]

I am probably in the minority, but I liked the way the Phoenix story was handled in TLS; it may not have been what we would've gotten if Singer had stayed, but I think it works just fine within the framework of what he'd set up.

 

[wobbly]

Regarding actual psychology, a separate personality can take years before it finds out who it is just like we do. The "Phoenix" persona could've started out as a quiet, maybe even catatonic in Jean's younger years, only to truly reveal itself at the appropriate time.

It still defeats the meaning of the name: Death & rebirth. Making it any kind of existing personality, dormant, locked away etc, that was within Jean before her sacrifice at the lake defeats that meaning. It wasn't born, it was released.

For me, she should have emerged from the Lake as the now very powerful Phoenix but with Jean's mind in control at first, then gotten corrupted by all that vast power as she realises just how much she can now do with it all (absolute power and all that), therefore creating the dark Phoenix persona after the transformation.

Like how they did it in the books.

As presented in X3 though the Phoenix was dark all the time. There was never a good phase for it, one where it was jean in control of that power (or Green Vs Red if you like).

 

[wobbly]

Everything points to If Rothman would have signed singer to deal to do X3 Instead of creating a situation where a year later WB could offer him SUperman that exposure to Magneto's machine were expanding and evoluing her powers and X3 would have her her reborn as phoenix.

X2 certainly hinted exposure to the X1 machine had begun the process of her tapping into a much greater power, rather than it beginning to release something that was already there.

I am inclined to think Singer's version of X3 would have followed the books closer in that regard (she starts off as the Phoenix as good, then turns dark later). I think we'd have gotten the much missed firebird effect as well

 

[MarvelU]

X2 certainly hinted exposure to the X1 machine had begun the process of her tapping into a much greater power, rather than it beginning to release something that was already there.

I am inclined to think Singer's version of X3 would have followed the books closer in that regard (she starts off as the Phoenix as good, then turns dark later). I think we'd have gotten the much missed firebird effect as well

Definitely, X2 showed Jeans increasing powers, with a fiery aura. Why the heck did they remove this in The Last Stand? I don't get it.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I am probably in the minority, but I liked the way the Phoenix story was handled in TLS; it may not have been what we would've gotten if Singer had stayed, but I think it works just fine within the framework of what he'd set up.

I'm with you. I prefer the direction they took. Honestly, I like it better than Singer's proposed idea even.

Phoenix might not have been the best handled thing in the series, but I also don't think it was horrifically bad. Disappointing, and left some to be desired, but I think they were definitely on the right path with it.

My biggest complaint about Phoenix is the vaporizing of everyone. Never was a fan of the "de-molecularization" bit.

 

[DigificWriter]

The thing I like the most about how the Phoenix story was handled in TLS is that it felt realistic, which is something that pretty much all the films in the franchise thus far have striven to convey.

The Phoenix persona basically turned Jean into a sociopathic serial killer, which I've always thought was cool.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

The thing I like the most about how the Phoenix story was handled in TLS is that it felt realistic, which is something that pretty much all the films in the franchise thus far have striven to convey.

The Phoenix persona basically turned Jean into a sociopathic serial killer, which I've always thought was cool.

Same here. Never was a fan of the "cosmic goddess" route, and that element, by and large, is why Phoenix / Dark Phoenix Saga isn't necessarily one of my favorite comic stories.

But I do like the idea of Jean Grey being corrupted by her powers, and her turn that we see both in the comics and movie on a personal level.

I would have like the movie to explore that descent a bit deeper, but all in all, I much prefer the creative direction they took, and that's one reason why I do like X-Men: The Last Stand so much is just because for me, it's a preferred take on the Phoenix.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

I agree it shouldn't be cosmic but she could turn INTO something cosmicy. I liked the more grounded take but would have still liked the firebird aspect.

 

[terry78]

When you go with cosmic you start getting into the fact that there is alien life or higher plane beings in that universe, which opens up all the other possibilities that I don't know if they can be that ambitious with.

 

[Great Mind(s)]

She can turn into a super mutant that goes out into space though. Like 2001 style

 

[DigificWriter]

When you've already established a grounded and organically real universe, it's a really tricky thing to suddenly introduce less organically real elements into said universe, and it can very easily blow up in your face, which is why I'm glad the X-Franchise didn't go there. Singer may have been able to make it work had he stayed and decided to go that route, but it also could've very easily killed the film if it didn't work.

 

[terry78]

While I would like to see them dealing with the Shi'ar and the Starjammers, that's a little much at the moment.

 

[Sawyer]

Stuff like that just clutters up the mythology IMO. I don't hate it, but if it's left out, I don't miss it.

 

[terry78]

I suspect Singer really does want to get into Apocalypse at some point. His whole rhetoric seems right up his alley.

 

[marvelrobbins]

I don't want them to go into Shiar.May work In comics and In animation but not In
Live action.Whenever you go into space stuff the X-Men move into just another superhero
group.

I have no problem with a more grounded dark phoenix.It was way it was handled I hated.

I say yes to APocalypse no to Shiar.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Well, the fact that we saw the firebird spread its wings underwater at the end of X2 shows that Bryan wouldn't have been afraid to "go there" with the character.

Unfortunately, we just never got to see it...instead we were left with Zombie Jean with serious Carrie Issues.

 

[DigificWriter]

A character like Apocalypse is entirely doable within the framework of the franchise's grounded and organically real style because we've already seen mutant powers that make a person effectively immortal (hi, Logan).

Having Jean transform into a cosmic entity is more 'dicey' because it would have been relying on and introducing ideas that weren't already built into the style and tone of the franchise and could very easily have failed spectacularly.

Pulling this back on topic, one might think that it'd be a 'dicey' thing to introduce time travel into the X-Verse, but the way they appear to have done it in DoFP is completely in keeping with the tone and style they've already established, primarily because it appears to be predicated upon the use of concepts we're already familiar with and know already exist within the universe they've established.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Unfortunately, we just never got to see it...instead we were left with Zombie Jean with serious Carrie Issues.

ecchh. X2 had such a perfect set up too. What a disappointment.

 

[DigificWriter]

Nothing we got in TLS invalidates the 'firebird' imagery we saw at the end of X2, and said imagery isn't in and of itself an indicator that they were going to go 'cosmic' on us with the Phoenix story had Singer stayed.

 

[Double B]

I think we'd have gotten the much missed firebird effect as well

Definitely, X2 showed Jeans increasing powers, with a fiery aura. Why the heck did they remove this in The Last Stand? I don't get it.

Well, the fact that we saw the firebird spread its wings underwater at the end of X2 shows that Bryan wouldn't have been afraid to "go there" with the character.

The fire effects were meant to be there until late in the post-production process, I believe. I imagine they couldn't get it to look good enough in the time they had, and thus we got that bizarre look in X3.

You can tell it was certainly intended to be there when they were filming. Any time Jean would go all Dark Phoenix, they'd light her in every warm tones with a lot of orange lighting:

Ahh, what could have been.

 

[henzINNIT]

Nothing we got in TLS invalidates the 'firebird' imagery we saw at the end of X2, and said imagery isn't in and of itself an indicator that they were going to go 'cosmic' on us with the Phoenix story had Singer stayed.

A good indicator of what Singer's version would have been like are the pitches from his co-writers though, and they were clearly going to play into higher evolution (which makes total sense after X2)

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

The fire effects were meant to be there until late in the post-production process, I believe. I imagine they couldn't get it to look good enough in the time they had, and thus we got that bizarre look in X3.

You can tell it was certainly intended to be there when they were filming. Any time Jean would go all Dark Phoenix, they'd light her in every warm tones with a lot of orange lighting:

Ahh, what could have been.

You know what? You're absolutely right. I remember this board being ripped up in 2006 over this because the writers Zak Penn and Simon Kinberg swore on-line via chat-boards like this that we'd see the Phoenix Raptor. When it didn't happen, some of the fans from here (as well as another site) went after those two writers...mercilessly. LOL

Those were good times.

 

[xDOFPx]

I always thought Jean just looked like a Zombie in X3. It wasn't good effects at all.

I remember the blow up after X3. Wow, this site and others did not like it. I wasn't happy myself.

 

[jaymes_e06]

You know what? You're absolutely right. I remember this board being ripped up in 2006 over this because the writers Zak Penn and Simon Kinberg swore on-line via chat-boards like this that we'd see the Phoenix Raptor. When it didn't happen, some of the fans from here (as well as another site) went after those two writers...mercilessly. LOL

Those were good times.

I remember that!


Good times indeed.