Discussion in 'The Punisher' started by BatsDC, Oct 6, 2016.
I do not understand this reference.
I would even say that Frank's "love interests" are women as messed up as he is.
Thing is, I don't believe the showrunners or writers can look at what the fandom churn out. It's for legal reasons.
Frank is the biggest mack in Marvel but his wife is his only true love. The rest are just for killing time.
If they work in a romantic angle, I hope it's in the second or the third season.
The problem with Frank when it comes to his love life is that he's essentially someone who doesn't initiate, so often the comics writers had to have the woman be throwing herself at Frank.
While I am not opposed to the idea of Frank eventually getting a romantic subplot, its way too soon at this point for Frank to get involved with another woman (and by "too soon" in Karens case, I mean "never", but thats a totally different discussion).
Both Bernthal and the official Punisher twitter account already squashed the rumors of a Frank Castle/Karen Page romance.
No one wants to see that besides a handful of female viewers who have no knowledge of Frank outside of his appearance in Daredevil S2 anyway.
User: "I saw you getting friendly with Karen, Frank. We see you, you dawg."
The Punisher account: "Karen is like family. Get out of here with that."
And Bernthal has said this at various convention panels "Frank/Karen is a no-no" (although not necessarily in those words).
Honestly so glad to hear that...Including a love story is something that would actually turn me off to the show real fast...Maybe I would've still liked the series but it wouldn't have felt right at all. I do like Deborah Ann Woll and I like Karen Page a lot. Just not as a love interest for Frank.
That's really not substantial enough for me.
It wouldn't be out of character for Karen to be drawn to Frank. But if going by DD season 2 is any indication, she is extremely conflicted about him. There is a part of her that understands Frank and probably feels something warm and fuzzy towards him. However Frank lighting people up left and right doesn't sit well with her. For me that dynamic is inherently more interesting than those two just hitting in the sack for "having chemistry." Maybe in a typical CW teen drama, but not here and not now.
This isn't DC we're talking about here. Ewwww, salty! Seriously though, I think Marvel is smart enough to realize it's way too soon for Frank to have any romantic relationship. He had just finished (or so he thought) killing all the people responsible at the start of the season. As far as I'm concerned, that's the equivalent of Frank having just buried his wife. He loved her too much to go slinging his skull covered penis around the tv MCU. Besides, what are they upset that Claire is gonna be the only female being tossed around between the Defenders, so they've gotta add Karen to the rank of MCU ho too?!
Here's what I have to say about Karen's part on The Punisher. First off, she was only in four episodes, but I think we got a nice dose of Karen extending her reporting ventures and learning how shes been dealing with Matt's supposed death at the end of The Defenders. You can tell she still feels the pain of losing Matt. Even though she never once mentions Matt's or Foggy's names, it always looks to me like the two men are on her mind whenever she's on-camera. Karen is definitely putting on a mask whenever she's around Frank, hiding from him and burying herself in her work to escape the pain. Karen's grief over Matt also provoked a more reckless side of her.
But while I like Karen, I like Deborah Ann Woll and what she brings to the role, I don't like the plot she was given in The Punisher.
In Daredevil season 2, Karen's bond with Frank was definitely one that felt like a big brother-little sister thing. It was a bond that was made of mutual respect and understanding. But that doesn't translate to the spin-off. Like, the connection between Karen and Frank here is not the same thing as that which we got in Daredevil season 2. Sure, there was some very touching stuff like when Karen hugged Frank at her apartment, there were other parts about their interactions in The Punisher that made me facepalm. For instance, Frank's outburst to Micro that "Karen is family" in episode 9, or the scene on the elevator in episode 10. Those scenes, to me, felt so out of place, especially since Karens name doesn't even come up in episodes where she doesn't appear. Like, Frank only cares about Karen if she's in danger or he needs to use her to get information. Their interactions instead came off like corny Kastle fanfic.
And Karen seems more like a plot device in The Punisher. Yeah, that's her role. Her contributions to the A-plot extend solely to providing Frank with information that allows him to identify Carson Wolf as one of the conspirators and also get access to Micro. Her other contribution was to provide a resolution to the Lewis Wilson B-plot. I think Lewis's plot was interesting. But having him send a manifesto to the Bulletin seemed like an excuse to try and give Karen some more presence, plus satisfy the dreams of a certain section of the Kastle fandom.
Don't get me wrong, I do understand why Karen Page was used instead of Claire Temple to bridge The Punisher with Daredevil and the rest of the Netflix shows, as she had developed a bond with him. So it makes sense for her to show up if only for that purpose, but it also kinda slows the pacing down. I love Karen and I want to see her get developed even a little bit (obviously they weren't going to do much with Karen given the heavy focus on Frank's past, which she has no attachment to), but this show did nothing for her. She doesnt really share any personal or meaningful conversations with Frank as shed done in Daredevil, making her addition to the show feel a little awkward.
I will add one more thing: it's still pretty clear Karen's path is geared towards her and Matt getting back together romantically in Daredevil season 3. Her state of suffering in The Punisher, conveyed primarily in her clothing choices, only clarifies how much Karen still loves Matt, in the romantic sense. Her fears and concerns for Franks well-being ("Where does it end, Frank?") come from a place of her own personal loss (and echo similar remarks we've seen Claire and Foggy give to Matt).
With a month since the show came out, I'll have this to add:
The marketing team used Karen (and Deborah Ann Woll) pretty heavily in the show's PR tour. There are clear pluses and minuses to this: one the one hand, Karen is an established character, with an established, sympathetic relationship with Frank, so its not surprising they would want to play up her involvement. On the other hand, it creates an impression that shes a main character, so its deceptive. It risks disappointing any viewers who decided to watch the show because of Karen, and it also downplays the importance of other characters who are actually more central to the story.
And with Karen, it's also pretty clear that the marketing focused on the love interest/friendship without depth part of her connection with Frank, and not much else with her. I hope they dont put too much emphasis on that again and that Daredevil season 3's marketing will finally focus on Karen being the amazing character she can be, not just as someone vigilantes can easily fall in love with.