Born Again Did it feel like you were watching Daredevil: season 4?

[XtremelyBaneful]

*testing out if the poll works now*

Okay, I have no idea how this thread is gonna go, but even though the cast and crew have stated that Born Again canon-wise is season 4 of the original Netflix show, I felt like there was too much of a lack of connection there.

-Vanessa getting her husband Kingpin & Bullseye free by flipping the narrative of Nadeem's dying declaration ruined season 3 for me

-Cherry (the character, not the actor) felt like a pathetic replacement of Brett Mahoney who had had a strong established connection with Foggy, Matt, AND his alter ego Daredevil

-Kirsten (the character, not the actress) felt like she was taking Marci's place and her relationship with Foggy was the strongest it ever was at the end of season 3

-Sister Maggie was nowhere to be found except for a throwaway line in the Yusuf Khan episode

-Leroy (the character, not the actor) felt like he was taking Turk's place and that's a character who actually had quite a bit of fan requests for returning.

I could go on and on with expanding, but I wanna how popular this thread gets.

What do you think?

 

[psylockolussus]

No. Its a different show and a different title. I didn't even try to remember what happened in the Netflix show.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

No. Its a different show and a different title. I didn't even try to remember what happened in the Netflix show.

I certainly tried remembering what happened in the Netflix show since it's the predecessor to this, but I think ultimately there was a failure to connect Born Again to it as much as that I could have for a season 1.

 

[Elayis]

Putting aside quality difference, the fundamental DNA of Born Again was essentially a reboot. It doesn't matter that Cox and D'Onofrio returned, or that they tried to paper over the changes with reshoots and new episodes.

If this was a continuation, or a true season four, they wouldn't need the obvious replacement characters that you mentioned. Any additional seasons will still be stuck with the choices that were made in Born Again's original form, like the absence of Netflix characters and narrative arcs.

It's cool if people enjoy Born Again (I emphatically do not), but there's no denying that it is not season four, as much as it tries to pretend otherwise. You can't watch the three seasons of the Netflix show and then jump into the Disney version without feeling whiplash.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Putting aside quality difference, the fundamental DNA of Born Again was essentially a reboot. It doesn't matter that Cox and D'Onofrio returned, or that they tried to paper over the changes with reshoots and new episodes.

If this was a continuation, or a true season four, they wouldn't need the obvious replacement characters that you mentioned. Any additional seasons will still be stuck with the choices that were made in Born Again's original form, like the absence of Netflix characters and narrative arcs.

It's cool if people enjoy Born Again (I emphatically do not), but there's no denying that it is not season four, as much as it tries to pretend otherwise. You can't watch the three seasons of the Netflix show and then jump into the Disney version without feeling whiplash.

You're right. I enjoyed Born Again BUT that's only because the hype of finally getting a follow-up to season 3 was coursing through me as I watched it.

The new showrunners got a lot of credit for saving the show from being better than it was going to be, but the end result is still kinda bad. Those guys are best known for Loki which in my opinion is overrated and Netflix's Daredevil is still way better than that.

If they really wanted to go all in on making BA be a true season 4, why didn't they bring back some of the old showrunners? Why just some of the stunt coordinators? Why didn't they bring back Royce Johnson to reshoot the scenes with Cherry like they did with Vanessa's re-recasting?

It's not just about these new characters that are insulting replacements of established characters, it's also about how season 3 was ruined.

Why the hell was Bullseye in a mental institution and not prison? I posted this in the general thread but I'll copy/paste it here about how Vanessa's logic of how Kingpin got free is bamboozling:

Judge : Fisk, you're going to prison for corrupting the FBI.

Kingpin: I should be released from custody.

Judge: and why the hell should we release a 2X convicted felon?

Kingpin: because the FBI is corrupted.

Judge: oh okay. You're released from custody.

Like WHAT?

 

[Elayis]

I think Daredevil's problems are tied into the larger MCU's lack of vision post Endgame.

Bringing back characters like Matt and Fisk so sporadically in trivial cameos before a proper Daredevil show really made a mess of things. Kingpin went from a grounded crime boss on Netflix to a cartoonish thug with superpowers on Hawkeye, and then whatever he was in Echo (I didn't watch it). So trying to make sense of a butchered timeline when they finally realized they had to make the Netflix show canon was always going to be next to impossible. Just like with shooting Born Again, they had to look at what they had and try to glue together all of the disparate pieces and hope for the best.

When it comes to casting and leaving out legacy characters, I can at least understand their position, even though the problem was entirely self inflicted. Once the six episodes had already been shot before the strikes, the choices that were made were essentially set in stone. Foggy had to be dead, Karen had to be MIA, and Matt was no longer Daredevil. It wouldn't be feasible for a TV show to basically reshoot everything, especially now that Disney is trying to reign things in, budget wise. As much as I would like people like Mahoney, Marci and Turk to show up, that ship sailed after shooting those first six episodes. It might be possible to bring them back in the future, but it with be as replacements for the new cast.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I think Daredevil's problems are tied into the larger MCU's lack of vision post Endgame.

Bringing back characters like Matt and Fisk so sporadically in trivial cameos before a proper Daredevil show really made a mess of things. Kingpin went from a grounded crime boss on Netflix to a cartoonish thug with superpowers on Hawkeye, and then whatever he was in Echo (I didn't watch it). So trying to make sense of a butchered timeline when they finally realized they had to make the Netflix show canon was always going to be next to impossible. Just like with shooting Born Again, they had to look at what they had and try to glue together all of the disparate pieces and hope for the best.

While trying to make sense of a butchered timeline was going to be next to impossible, it was still possible. It was the show's responsibility to delineate how the blip affected all these characters, but they decided to not factor the blip into the character arcs at all and instead just offered one line of dialogue from Vanessa, the person who ordered Nadeem's assassination to Bullseye, the person who assassinated Nadeem, who for some reason gets to go to a mental institution instead of prison with all his white privilege without even logically explaining how Kingpin got released and how that same logic would get him out.

It's the show's responsibility to delineate how Kingpin twisted the system to his will, just like the show did so from season 2 leading into season 3. One pathetic line of dialogue that ruins everything from the previous season isn't the way to do that.

When it comes to casting and leaving out legacy characters, I can at least understand their position, even though the problem was entirely self inflicted. Once the six episodes had already been shot before the strikes, the choices that were made were essentially set in stone. Foggy had to be dead, Karen had to be MIA, and Matt was no longer Daredevil. It wouldn't be feasible for a TV show to basically reshoot everything, especially now that Disney is trying to reign things in, budget wise. As much as I would like people like Mahoney, Marci and Turk to show up, that ship sailed after shooting those first six episodes. It might be possible to bring them back in the future, but it with be as replacements for the new cast.

To hell with Disney reigning things in budget-wise. I'm a superfan living paycheck to paycheck and they're a multi-billion dollar corporation. They should have properly dealt with their entirely self inflicted problem instead of releasing a half-assed season 4.

The show was already delayed a year because of the overhaul. If they had to delay it even more to reshoot and re-write more of it, then they should have done that. The ship carrying Mahoney, Marci, Maggie, and even Turk should have taken a sharp turn back from whence it came and more of the original shoot should have been scrapped.

If it's only a possibility and not even a high possibility that they'll be brought back for the future, then that already kills some of my hype for season 2.

 

[Elayis]

As unfortunate as it may be for fans like us, Disney is a business, and its main purpose is maximizing profits for its shareholders. There's only so much money you can sink into a project before it becomes untenable. That's why Brave New World is still such a mess despite numerous rewrites and reshoots.

Returning to Born Again after the strikes was all about triage, and rectifying the most egregious errors (recasting Vanessa, the absence of Karen, Foggy and Frank) in the simplest way possible. There's no scenario where, in addition to reshooting all of Vanessa's scenes, they'd also reshoot all of Cherry and Kirsten's as well, only to replace them with relatively minor characters from the Netflix show that only diehard fans really care about.

Fundamentally, I don't think it would matter, either, as both sets of showrunners that Born Again has had seem to be inept at executing a compelling and well crafted narrative. I found the original six episodes, as well the newly shot bookends, to be terrible, albeit for different reasons. Like most of the other MCU shows, Born Again is garbage, it just hurts more because it's a property that used to be so good, and something I had been emotionally invested in since 2015.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

As unfortunate as it may be for fans like us, Disney is a business, and its main purpose is maximizing profits for its shareholders. There's only so much money you can sink into a project before it becomes untenable.

Look man, I get it. The bottom line is that Disney is a business and ultimately all they care about is making as much money as possible (damn does capitalism suck). But that's exactly my point. I am just a guy, while Disney has endless amounts of money compared to me so if they aren't going to sink more money into a project to rectify stupid previous executive decisions, then they deserve the criticism that they're getting and going to get for trying to pretend they fixed it while not spending enough money to actually fix it.

That's why Brave New World is still such a mess despite numerous rewrites and reshoots.

I haven't had the pleasure of watching Cap4 yet. My wife is on a business trip though so she might get to watch it on a plane.

Returning to Born Again after the strikes was all about triage, and rectifying the most egregious errors (recasting Vanessa, the absence of Karen, Foggy and Frank) in the simplest way possible. There's no scenario where, in addition to reshooting all of Vanessa's scenes, they'd also reshoot all of Cherry and Kirsten's as well, only to replace them with relatively minor characters from the Netflix show that only diehard fans really care about.

I'm going to just go ahead and say that Brett is just as important as Vanessa, so the most egregious errors included leaving him out, and therefore weren't rectified. Need I remind you that Brett was the cop who arrested Vanessa's husband, and that's BOTH times her husband got caught. If Brett was a "relatively minor character from the Netflix show that only diehard fans really care about" then

-the script of Born Again wouldn't have a space for a cop character to have a pre-written history tying him to Matt, Karen, and Foggy which narratively feels like replacing a character who literally filled that space in every way shape and form and

-we wouldn't even be having this conversation

And also, Daredevil was probably the most highly anticipated MCUD+ show to ever debut. Why the hell should they triage this in the simplest way possible? This IP deserved all the effort Disney could chuck at it. If there is no scenario where they'd also reshoot at least Cherry's scenes, then there's no scenario where season 1 could be on par with the Netflix show in terms of quality storytelling or even purely connecting to the Netflix show.

Fundamentally, I don't think it would matter, either, as both sets of showrunners that Born Again has had seem to be inept at executing a compelling and well crafted narrative. I found the original six episodes, as well the newly shot bookends, to be terrible, albeit for different reasons. Like most of the other MCU shows, Born Again is garbage, it just hurts more because it's a property that used to be so good, and something I had been emotionally invested in since 2015.

It already doesn't matter because Born Again got great reviews on Metacritic and great scores on Rottentomatoes, and I'm gonna guess great viewership numbers too. I feel the energy in the bolded too. And that's why I can't be that forgiving to the showrunners or the show itself. It could have, should have, and would have been better if they took the necessary steps pointed out here. Bringing back more of the Netflix characters would have made THAT much more of a connection for us.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

And also, Daredevil was probably the most highly anticipated MCUD+ show to ever debut. Why the hell should they triage this in the simplest way possible? This IP deserved all the effort Disney could chuck at it. If there is no scenario where they'd also reshoot at least Cherry's scenes, then there's no scenario where season 1 could be on par with the Netflix show in terms of quality storytelling or even purely connecting to the Netflix show.

It already doesn't matter because Born Again got great reviews on Metacritic and great scores on Rottentomatoes, and I'm gonna guess great viewership numbers too. I feel the energy in the bolded too. And that's why I can't be that forgiving to the showrunners or the show itself. It could have, should have, and would have been better if they took the necessary steps pointed out here. Bringing back more of the Netflix characters would have made THAT much more of a connection for us.

As I understand it the viewership numbers are a fraction of what was wanted as the brand on ABC, Netflix and now Disney+ have been chasing Avengers level returns since Joss Whedon made the concept work. The battle between Disney wanting content to justify the purchase and get those who had the big saga on disc anyway to subscribe to Disney+ and the artist wanting to put on the best show.

The artist would have junked everything and brought back all of the Netflix reoccurring characters just as they "un recast" Vanessa. But the owner would then have to wait yet another year for fresh MCU content. Which left us with the make up job put on the corpse to play a Weekend at Bernie's before the dead show could hopefully rise like a phoenix.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

As I understand it the viewership numbers are a fraction of what was wanted as the brand on ABC, Netflix and now Disney+ have been chasing Avengers level returns since Joss Whedon made the concept work. The battle between Disney wanting content to justify the purchase and get those who had the big saga on disc anyway to subscribe to Disney+ and the artist wanting to put on the best show.

The artist would have junked everything and brought back all of the Netflix reoccurring characters just as they "un recast" Vanessa. But the owner would then have to wait yet another year for fresh MCU content. Which left us with the make up job put on the corpse to play a Weekend at Bernie's before the dead show could hopefully rise like a phoenix.

we don't know if it would take another year of delays to have had a better and more proper Born Again season 1 with all of the Netflix characters returning, but what I know is the end of product that is the actual season 1 is a disheveled mess and a massive disappointment. I'm surprised the viewership is lower than their expectations though. is it so low that the show basically flopped?

 

[Mike Murdock]

Every season of Daredevil had its own take because there was a different showrunner. This one felt like it was a step more away, but still felt like it had a lot of overlap. It some ways, what Netflix did was better. In some ways, this was better.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I would say no. This felt like same universe but it's own thing. Think of like Twin Peaks and Twin Peak: The Return. The Return is distinctly its own thing, though it is picking up these same characters after a lengthy period of time

 

[Dr. Evil]

With Brett....if he was still active with the NYPD, but as a precinct chief now, he might have a talk with Angela Del Toro, explaining to her that not everyone in the NYPD is bad, because Angela blames the police for her uncle's death. With the way Gallo was killed off, I would not have wanted that for Brett if he was commissioner. Also, Brett could have been a reminder to Castle that not all police is bad. Brett was the police antagonist in the series, but Castle wasn't going to kill him as he's a good cop with high morals. There's no doubt he would have been disturbed by the Task Force.

I mean Cherry and Angie Kim is fine (and more Asian representation in the MCU, the better), but Brett has a long history with Matt but also Foggy, Karen and Castle. For that matter, where is Misty Knight? I also think she would have been disturbed by the Task Force as well.

As for the series itself, it is a sequel, because the relationships between various characters remain, such as Frank and Matt and also they kept Frank and Karen relationship going

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Every season of Daredevil had its own take because there was a different showrunner. This one felt like it was a step more away,

every season of Daredevil had its own take, but from season to season all of the events proceeded with each other organically.

but still felt like it had a lot of overlap. It some ways, what Netflix did was better.

what overlap and what made it felt like a lot?

In some ways, this was better.

in what was was Disney+ better?

I would say no. This felt like same universe but it's own thing. Think of like Twin Peaks and Twin Peak: The Return. The Return is distinctly its own thing, though it is picking up these same characters after a lengthy period of time

a lengthy period of time has passed, but it's still the show's responsibility to properly delineate what has happened within and after that lengthy period of time. the show didn't do that, it either did a poor job of it or just didn't do it at all.

With Brett....if he was still active with the NYPD, but as a precinct chief now, he might have a talk with Angela Del Toro, explaining to her that not everyone in the NYPD is bad, because Angela blames the police for her uncle's death. With the way Gallo was killed off, I would not have wanted that for Brett if he was commissioner. Also, Brett could have been a reminder to Castle that not all police is bad. Brett was the police antagonist in the series, but Castle wasn't going to kill him as he's a good cop with high morals. There's no doubt he would have been disturbed by the Task Force.

it's so obvious from watching the show that Cherry just took Brett's place. I certainly wouldn't want Brett to be killed off like the commissioner was, but now that you say that, bringing him back to be the new commissioner would be a great way to reintroduce him into season 2. however, we've got absolutely no idea whether Royce Johnson will get a callback and season 1 by itself was disappointing for this reason.

I mean Cherry and Angie Kim is fine (and more Asian representation in the MCU, the better), but Brett has a long history with Matt but also Foggy, Karen and Castle. For that matter, where is Misty Knight? I also think she would have been disturbed by the Task Force as well.

I'm with you there about Angie Kim, I'm all for more Asian representation too.

but I disagree with Cherry being fine. my bias for Brett will not even give him a chance. for all intents and purposes, there should have never been a Cherry, and all of the scenes with him there should have been with Brett. imagine him in Cherry's place, and already, all of those scenes in season 1 are immediately enhanced.

As for the series itself, it is a sequel, because the relationships between various characters remain, such as Frank and Matt and also they kept Frank and Karen relationship going

I disagree. I would say it fails horrible at being a sequel because there were far more relationships in the previous season that this season either pretended never happened, or just completely ignored.

bringing Frank & Karen back were not even close to being enough. they pretend Brett & Marci never existed. they completely ignored sister Maggie aside from a throwaway line in episode 5. they completely undermined Nadeem's sacrifice and bamboozled the triumph of exposing Kingpin at the end of season 3.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I dont need the show to tell me every little thing that happened in between. I don't know what happened to Brett or others that are not in the show, but I don't really need to. They're not in the show and maybe those characters return and gaps get filled in. It's not a big deal. We saw the most relevant but of history between shows in episode 1.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

man, replying to posts on this forum is still such a nightmare.

I dont need the show to tell me every little thing that happened in between. I don't know what happened to Brett or others that are not in the show, but I don't really need to.

more power to you if you don't care for every little thing that happened in between, but I do. I don't know what happened to Brett or others that are not in the show, but I really need to.

They're not in the show and maybe those characters return and gaps get filled in. It's not a big deal. We saw the most relevant but of history between shows in episode 1.

I disagree 100%. it is a very big deal and we didn't see the most relevant history between the shows in episode 1. I explained this concisely in the OP but I'll say again:

1. Brett has known Foggy since they were kids. He was integrally tied to Nelson & Murdock the law firm as well as worked with Daredevil the superhero throughout seasons 1-3, and he was the cop who arrested Kingpin. And he did it twice.

so for all intents and purposes, his absence was a really big deal and a really big question mark and filling his void with a new character was disjointed and even insulting the hardcore fanbase of the original series.

2. Marci & Foggy's relationship was as strong as it was at the end of season 3. Marci was also in seasons 1, 2, & 3. her absence without explanation was poor storytelling since she was a core part of Foggy's character arc.

3. Kingpin was incarcerated for the execution of Nadeem & corrupting the FBI, but a flashback in the season finale of Born Again showed Vanessa explaining to Bullseye that the execution of Nadeem & corrupting the FBI is what got him acquitted. this circular logic is nothing short of bamboozlement.

4. Maggie is Matt's own mother, I feel like explaining her bizarre absence is self-explanatory.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I am not really going to get into each of these 1 by 1, because for me it all falls under the same idea that some characters are more relevant to some stories than others. Maggie was essential in what season 3 was doing, but she has less connection to what's going on now. We also have to remember that this show initially was a separate show. They changed concept mid show and could only refilm so much. They couldn't add every character into major roles retroactively. There wasn't story real estate for that. Now maybe we will see some of these characters return next season since they're doing it from the ground up and then we can check in on what they were doing. Who knows, but I cannot say I was asking myself where was Mother Maggie last season. Brett I thought more about cause police corruption was a huge story point in the season, and maybe Marci toward the beginning of episode 1. But we never saw a funeral scene, so I didn't really question it after we moved forward. If these things bothered you, that's fine. I just don't think it ended up being a big deal. Same with Nadeem. Fisk was already out, so they had to hand waive it somehow. They couldn't restart the season with him back in prison. He was already in Hawkeye. There is only so much you can do when you're filming new tie in material to reconcextualize an existing series.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I am not really going to get into each of these 1 by 1, because for me it all falls under the same idea that some characters are more relevant to some stories than others.

fair enough, so even with the list of characters I am talking about are you saying then that some of them are more deserving to be discussed than others?

Maggie was essential in what season 3 was doing, but she has less connection to what's going on now.

Maggie's final scene in season 3 showed that she was going to take the place that father Lantom had for Matt, which was the person that he would go to for guidance in a moral compass or voice of reason.

which means she's always going to have a connection to what's going on as long as Matt needs her.

We also have to remember that this show initially was a separate show. They changed concept mid show and could only refilm so much. They couldn't add every character into major roles retroactively. There wasn't story real estate for that.

I remember full well how this show was going to be a soft reboot and then pivoted to being season 4 instead, but I am not going cut Disney slack for that. they are a multi-billion dollar corporation that can allocate endless budgets at whichever projects they wanted and if they had allocated more time and money to Born Again season 1, it could been an actual good season of television.

they didn't add any character into major roles retroactively, but what they did do was reshoot. Brett was just as deserving for reshoots as Vanessa was. and there was story real estate for it since Cherry existed in the original script.

Now maybe we will see some of these characters return next season since they're doing it from the ground up and then we can check in on what they were doing. Who knows, but I cannot say I was asking myself where was Mother Maggie last season.

again, more power to you for not caring where sister Maggie was. speaking for myself though, her absence was one bizarre example in a lack of connection between the previous season and this one.

Brett I thought more about cause police corruption was a huge story point in the season,

how does police corruption explain Brett's absence though? Brett knew how corrupt the system was and he was Daredevil's confidant because of his honesty and trustworthiness.

and maybe Marci toward the beginning of episode 1. But we never saw a funeral scene, so I didn't really question it after we moved forward.

the lack of a funeral scene was awful considering how important Foggy was but that's besides the point - an off screen funeral and assuming Marci could or couldn't have been there is fans filling in gaps for poor storytelling by the powers.

I just don't think it ended up being a big deal. Same with Nadeem. Fisk was already out, so they had to hand waive it somehow. They couldn't restart the season with him back in prison. He was already in Hawkeye. There is only so much you can do when you're filming new tie in material to reconcextualize an existing series.

I don't know how someone who watched the entire Netflix show could say that Kingpin getting out of jail for a second time isn't a big deal.

they didn't have to "hand waive" his exoneration, they had to properly explain how he was free. I know they could restart the season with im back in prison since he was in Hawkeye, and that's why it was the show's job to properly delineaate what exactly happened and the fact that they did is a complete insult to how the Netflix show ended.

in season 1, Kingpin was arrested. throughout season 2, he rises in power while still incarcerated, and in season 3, he's released from prison while still under house arrest and as soon as Matt, Karen, & Foggy find out about it, they're riled up.

in season 4, there is a flashback of Vanessa telling Bullseye that her husband got released from prison because of Nadeem & the corruption of the FBI (which is what got him in prison). I already made an example of how bamboozling this is but I'll just copy/paste:

Judge : Fisk, you're going to prison for corrupting the FBI.

Kingpin: I should be released from custody.

Judge: and why the hell should we release a 2X convicted felon?

Kingpin: because the FBI is corrupted.

Judge: oh okay. You're released from custody.

again, for anyone who watched the entirety of the original show and then watched that scene, there is no other logical way of looking at other than it being nonsensical and bamboozling. and on top of that, why the hell wouldn't Matt, Karen, & Foggy get riled up just like they did last time? did they even care that Kingpin was being freed for a second time and that Nadeem died for nothing?

 

[Spider-Fan]

fair enough, so even with the list of characters I am talking about are you saying then that some of them are more deserving to be discussed than others?

Maggie's final scene in season 3 showed that she was going to take the place that father Lantom had for Matt, which was the person that he would go to for guidance in a moral compass or voice of reason.

which means she's always going to have a connection to what's going on as long as Matt needs her.

I remember full well how this show was going to be a soft reboot and then pivoted to being season 4 instead, but I am not going cut Disney slack for that. they are a multi-billion dollar corporation that can allocate endless budgets at whichever projects they wanted and if they had allocated more time and money to Born Again season 1, it could been an actual good season of television.

they didn't add any character into major roles retroactively, but what they did do was reshoot. Brett was just as deserving for reshoots as Vanessa was. and there was story real estate for it since Cherry existed in the original script.

again, more power to you for not caring where sister Maggie was. speaking for myself though, her absence was one bizarre example in a lack of connection between the previous season and this one.

how does police corruption explain Brett's absence though? Brett knew how corrupt the system was and he was Daredevil's confidant because of his honesty and trustworthiness.

the lack of a funeral scene was awful considering how important Foggy was but that's besides the point - an off screen funeral and assuming Marci could or couldn't have been there is fans filling in gaps for poor storytelling by the powers.

I don't know how someone who watched the entire Netflix show could say that Kingpin getting out of jail for a second time isn't a big deal.

they didn't have to "hand waive" his exoneration, they had to properly explain how he was free. I know they could restart the season with im back in prison since he was in Hawkeye, and that's why it was the show's job to properly delineaate what exactly happened and the fact that they did is a complete insult to how the Netflix show ended.

in season 1, Kingpin was arrested. throughout season 2, he rises in power while still incarcerated, and in season 3, he's released from prison while still under house arrest and as soon as Matt, Karen, & Foggy find out about it, they're riled up.

in season 4, there is a flashback of Vanessa telling Bullseye that her husband got released from prison because of Nadeem & the corruption of the FBI (which is what got him in prison). I already made an example of how bamboozling this is but I'll just copy/paste:

Judge : Fisk, you're going to prison for corrupting the FBI.

Kingpin: I should be released from custody.

Judge: and why the hell should we release a 2X convicted felon?

Kingpin: because the FBI is corrupted.

Judge: oh okay. You're released from custody.

again, for anyone who watched the entirety of the original show and then watched that scene, there is no other logical way of looking at other than it being nonsensical and bamboozling. and on top of that, why the hell wouldn't Matt, Karen, & Foggy get riled up just like they did last time? did they even care that Kingpin was being freed for a second time and that Nadeem died for nothing?

If they had been added in reshoots, they would have ended up as cameos. Vanessa wasn't added in reshoots. She was recast in reshoots. She already was in the story, they just had to reshoot her material. Not the same as adding a new character. COULD they have reshot the entire season? Technically yes, but realistically no. So the team had to work around the limitations they had. Like I said, maybe we get more recurring characters next season. Karen is certainly going to have a larger role next season. We may get some returning Defenders. Maybe others show up now, we will see. But judging the show for itself, I was fine with it. You're free to have an opposing opinion if these things bothered you, but it's also not like the MCU hasn't had things die on the vine or completely go other directions before. See Hela just discarding Odin's Treasure Room as having fake items.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

If they had been added in reshoots, they would have ended up as cameos. Vanessa wasn't added in reshoots. She was recast in reshoots. She already was in the story, they just had to reshoot her material. Not the same as adding a new character.

what I am suggesting is that they should have canned the character Cherry and reshoot all of the scenes with him in the script with Brett instead. Cherry is just the cop character, and that's what Brett was and has always been. bringing Royce Johnson back would have added that much more connection to the previous show the same way re-recasting Vanessa did.

COULD they have reshot the entire season? Technically yes, but realistically no. So the team had to work around the limitations they had. Like I said, maybe we get more recurring characters next season. Karen is certainly going to have a larger role next season. We may get some returning Defenders. Maybe others show up now, we will see.

I don't see how it's unrealistic for a multi-billion dollar corporation to allocate more time and money for one of their IPs to reshoot an entire season of their work. sure, some of these characters could show up in season 2, but that still leaves season 1 the disheveled mess because they should have already been back for it.

But judging the show for itself, I was fine with it. You're free to have an opposing opinion if these things bothered you,

like I said, more power to you for being fine with the end product. I'm aware of my freedom to have an opposing opinion since all of these things bother me so much, that's why I'm expressing my feelings this way. I'm a superfan of the Netflix show and I was left very disappointed with Born Again.

but it's also not like the MCU hasn't had things die on the vine or completely go other directions before. See Hela just discarding Odin's Treasure Room as having fake items.

honestly I don't see the analogy you're trying to make there. what are you comparing Hela discarding Odin's fake treasures to?

 

[Spider-Fan]

what I am suggesting is that they should have canned the character Cherry and reshoot all of the scenes with him in the script with Brett instead. Cherry is just the cop character, and that's what Brett was and has always been. bringing Royce Johnson back would have added that much more connection to the previous show the same way re-recasting Vanessa did.

I don't see how it's unrealistic for a multi-billion dollar corporation to allocate more time and money for one of their IPs to reshoot an entire season of their work. sure, some of these characters could show up in season 2, but that still leaves season 1 the disheveled mess because they should have already been back for it.

like I said, more power to you for being fine with the end product. I'm aware of my freedom to have an opposing opinion since all of these things bother me so much, that's why I'm expressing my feelings this way. I'm a superfan of the Netflix show and I was left very disappointed with Born Again.

honestly I don't see the analogy you're trying to make there. what are you comparing Hela discarding Odin's fake treasures to?

You're saying Born Again is inconsistent with the old show, and my point is Marvel has done it several times where they do something 1 movie and it ends up being completely altered later. As for reshooting the entire season, this show exists as a value add to Disney+. Corporations want to see profit and value in something, and the more you spend, the more value you need to justify the expense. If they had canned the entire work they did and opted to reshoot not part, but the entire show, then the end result likely would have been cancelation. Cause the projected value of the series wasn't enough to justify that level of expense. This wasn't a movie they were putting in theaters. This wasn't even one of the movie adjacent shows like Falcon & Winter Soldier that was being used to blur that TV/Movie line. This was a show, and one they saw value in at lower cost like Agatha and Echo were. Reshooting the entire show brings that closer to Moon Knight or Secret Invasion level of investment. That was never going to be in the cards. The options were what they did or cancellation.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

You're saying Born Again is inconsistent with the old show, and my point is Marvel has done it several times where they do something 1 movie and it ends up being completely altered later.

I get that this franchise has been inconsistent several times in the past, but inconsistency is a bad thing, not a good thing. so, are you saying that it's okay that Born Again is inconsistent with the old show because of all the other times the MCU has been this way?

As for reshooting the entire season, this show exists as a value add to Disney+. Corporations want to see profit and value in something, and the more you spend, the more value you need to justify the expense. If they had canned the entire work they did and opted to reshoot not part, but the entire show, then the end result likely would have been cancelation. Cause the projected value of the series wasn't enough to justify that level of expense. This wasn't a movie they were putting in theaters. This wasn't even one of the movie adjacent shows like Falcon & Winter Soldier that was being used to blur that TV/Movie line. This was a show, and one they saw value in at lower cost like Agatha and Echo were. Reshooting the entire show brings that closer to Moon Knight or Secret Invasion level of investment. That was never going to be in the cards. The options were what they did or cancellation.

yes I get that Disney is a major conglomerate with an endless amounts of money with an end goal of making as much money as possible. I, on the other hand, am a consumer living paycheck to paycheck with expectations as an audience member of this show's predecessor's performance. since I am that person, I'm expressing my opinion of frustrations and disappointment.

I disagree that it's either what we got or cancelation just because this was a TV show instead of a movie. a third option would have just been delaying the show more for more reshoots. that's the option that they should have gone with instead of the mixed bag that is the actual end product.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I get that this franchise has been inconsistent several times in the past, but inconsistency is a bad thing, not a good thing. so, are you saying that it's okay that Born Again is inconsistent with the old show because of all the other times the MCU has been this way?

yes I get that Disney is a major conglomerate with an endless amounts of money with an end goal of making as much money as possible. I, on the other hand, am a consumer living paycheck to paycheck with expectations as an audience member of this show's predecessor's performance. since I am that person, I'm expressing my opinion of frustrations and disappointment.

I disagree that it's either what we got or cancelation just because this was a TV show instead of a movie. a third option would have just been delaying the show more for more reshoots. that's the option that they should have gone with instead of the mixed bag that is the actual end product.

One can dislike it, but it's what was realistic. They were only going to approve investing so much into Born Again. They were not going to double its budget. Even if they technically could, they were never going to. I also am not saying you cannot voice your opinions. I just don't agree with your opinion in this case.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

One can dislike it, but it's what was realistic. They were only going to approve investing so much into Born Again. They were not going to double its budget. Even if they technically could, they were never going to.

I don't think it's unrealistic for them not to approve more of an investment into Born Again. they didn't have to double the budget - there is no need for that anyway, the budget is already probably much higher than what we got in the Netflix show.

all they would have needed to do was delay the show a little more for more reshoots. it would have cost more, but not so much more than it would be 2X everything they already spent.

I also am not saying you cannot voice your opinions. I just don't agree with your opinion in this case.

I know. we've been having a conversation. it's not like I ever felt as if you were saying I cannot voice my opinions; I've been expressing my opinion to you this whole time, even though you disagree.