Arrow Dinah Laurel Lance/Katie Cassidy Thread - Part 3

[DarthSkywalker]

Well you are attempting to compare Daredevil to Arrow as if it's some fair comparison. It's like trying to compare Gotham to the Wire.

I didn't bring up Daredevil. But if someone is going to say Arrow early on was as compelling as Daredevil is, I am going to make it clear I do not agree.

Also, what is your point with Gotham and the Wire? The quality of the show is the quality of the show. No Gotham isn't the Wire, because Gotham isn't as good as the Wire. A show being on non-premium cable does not limit it. FX has two of the best shows on television and iZombie is on the CW and fantastic.

It feels like the excuses made for Cassidy herself. As if you can't expect more from the actress because the show is on the CW.

 

[SpideyVille]

When I mention Daredevil, in comparison to Arrow, it's not about it production value. It's about how it portrays similar characters in similar settings, and that has more to do with writing first. Like I mention how much more likable Felicity was two seasons ago as compared to now, and it has nothing to do with the acting, and I think that's the problem, too many people confuse acting with writing.

Yes, you can give a great actor crappy writing and they can still find a way to make it compelling in their performance, but one performance can not save a show, especially when there's an ensemble cast. You can say Katie Cassidy is not a great actress all you want, but the truth is, the biggest flaw in Arrow to date, is how poorly all of their characters are written. It's really to the point where every episode feels like a filler as they wait for mid-season finales and winter breaks.

Nearly everything that made this show worth watching in the first two seasons is gone, and what's worse is they started this season strong by addressing the issues from last season, but all it felt like was that they were setting up Legends storylines, which actually hurt both Arrow and Flash more.

 

[Paradox1]

I didn't bring up Daredevil. But if someone is going to say Arrow early on was as compelling as Daredevil is, I am going to make it clear I do not agree.

Also, what is your point with Gotham and the Wire? The quality of the show is the quality of the show. No Gotham isn't the Wire, because Gotham isn't as good as the Wire. A show being on non-premium cable does not limit it. FX has two of the best shows on television and iZombie is on the CW and fantastic.

It feels like the excuses made for Cassidy herself. As if you can't expect more from the actress because the show is on the CW.

I don't remember anyone making excuses for Cassidy's performance. If your interpretation of it is negative that's an absolute opinion. I don't understand how anyone can take that as otherwise.

The proof of the difference in what is being recognized as quality tv is reflected in Emmy nominations. Look at last year noms the majority of award winning performances and shows are from premium channels. Network tv plays it safe more than not and premium channels tend to take more chances. Shows that would of been mid level movies 10yrs ago like Mr. robot or Beast of No Nations are finding their way to cable and streaming services.

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

So what is difference then and now?

Beside Laurel no person arc or no DA office scene which could usually have been done instead of PT scenes. Unless they don't want to use that set or something?

 

[Batsfan1]

Thea Queen as Speedy.

An original character doesn't change anything. The canon characters are still the canon characters. If those characters don't have the backstories of their characters then they aren't the character. Thea is also Mia Dearden. The show went to some points to establish this before making her Speedy. She took on the name Mia as an alias while hiding from everyone in season 3. Season 1 established her middle name being Dearden. They even had Roy/Arsenal give her his stuff. This worked because the show hadn't established a Mia Dearden before this who would go on to have the same backstory as comic canon Mia.

The confirmation on how they feel about Katie Cassidy as an actress was made when they shifted the lead female role to Felicity. You can agree or disagree on whether they are right, but that doesn't happen if they find Laurel to be a strong lead character that vast majority of people are enjoying.

If everything was going fine, why did they make the switch?

Feeling and enjoying doesn't equal quality. There are many things that I can like or dislike, but that doesn't change whether it's well done or not. I don't think my post was about what people felt about the actress though.

It is a question of what the creative finds compelling. Not that they are always right. I find Arrow crew to be shoddy at best in their decision making. But a random supporting character doesn't suddenly become one of the two leads because the original female lead was working out.

It doesn't happen because she wasn't working out either. It happens based on bias and unjust hatred.

This is in fact wrong as they do hand out statues for people's acting ability. Which very much defines a character. One could say performance matters more then writing. It is why lackluster scripts still produce acting nominations.

If Cassidy was a compelling actress, she'd rise above the material. You see this on Flash quite a bit actually.

No. Writing is what defines a character. If people like something based on performance when the character isn't well written, then they're not liking the character, they're liking the person that plays them. Actors and Actresses do get awards, but for performance, which doesn't make the character good. Note that I'm not saying that Katie or Emily are bad actresses. That wouldn't be appropriate. They're real human beings, not fictional characters. I'll be the first to say they've both had their weak performances, but I have no right to judge them as better.

And I disagree. It wasn't even that much of a writing thing, though it was pretty dumb, but because of how unconvincing Kate Cassidy is in the role. I honestly don't know if she is less convincing as a DA or a fighter.

It's still all an opinion. Have a very great day!

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

[Slade W]

There is no denying that some characters failure to resonate with the audience in a strong way is down to the actors in certain cases. Willa and Colton are two such examples. They have been given plenty of opportunities, but did not make the most of them. Roy had an interesting arc in season 2 with the mirakuru (a nice little nod to the characters struggles with drugs in the comics, but different enough to make it fresh) and I think the actor did ok with it, but he still did not get anywhere near as strong a response as other characters have gotten. It is the same with Thea. They have fans, but also people who do not like them. Overall, to me at least, it seems that their reception is mixed at best (during the course of their three or four seasons).

Characters like Moira and Walter, despite having less to do, were received better (again, this is how it seems to me at least). That is because they were played by better actors who did a better job. It is the same with Tommy too. Everyone likes Tommy. Again, despite the complaints about his characters writing and his relationship with Laurel (which I personally liked a lot and I think it is still the best relationship in this Arrow/Flash universe), people still liked him and that is why he is brought back. This is mainly down to him being played by a good actor.

If more of the actors and actresses did as good a job as Emily, Susanna Thompson and Colin Donnell, then they would feature more because the majority of the audience would want to see them and would make enough noise. I think Katie Cassidy is a good actress and one of the better ones on the show (definitely better than Willa and Colton),but there is no denying that she has a lot of doubters, and not just in season 2. Even last season, there were still people who had problems with her. While the actors and actresses deserve blame, so to do the people who hired them, as they should have hired better or more suitable people for some roles.

 

[Omegabat]

The Laurel character couldn't have been saved by gender bent DDL either imo. They were never clear on what to do with her from day one. Katie never got compelling material to work with,she couldn't follow the source material,she couldn't innovate either as it was not a new character. It's been a disaster from day one but Cassidy still tried her best.
EBR pretty much depicted a new character and given free rein over the role because it was unimportant,though even she can only just pull off the quirky tech girl. Give her something more and the acting quality becomes truly visible.
Similarly Amell is also terrible,he's the worst lead in super hero shows by far. Bennet,Thompson,Barrowman and Colin Donnel have been the actually good actors so far.

 

[Fincher]

If more of the actors and actresses did as good a job as Emily, Susanna Thompson and Colin Donnell, then they would feature more because the majority of the audience would want to see them and would make enough noise.

That argument seems self-defeating since Susanna Thompson and Colin Donnell have featured considerably less.

Different people will have different ideas on this, and really it's impossible for me to know which actors (or characters) the majority of the audience like or like the most, but for my money Willa Holland is a better actress than most of the leads. And that's not getting into her being gorgeous.

 

[Slade W]

That argument seems self-defeating since Susanna Thompson and Colin Donnell have featured considerably less.

Different people will have different ideas on this, and really it's impossible for me to know which actors (or characters) the majority of the audience like or like the most, but for my money Willa Holland is a better actress than most of the leads. And that's not getting into her being gorgeous.

The original plan was for them both to die. If their response was overwhelmingly positive like Felicity received, then perhaps they would have changed their mind and kept them on. Tommy is brought back in flashbacks and they wanted Moira back for one last year, but the actress declined. My point regarding Tommy and Moira (and Walter) was that there were not many complaints in regards to their characters, and both are highly thought of by the audience (this is how it seems to me). A lot of other characters on the show have had mixed responses in comparison.

You are right that it is hard to gauge and give a 100% accurate idea of how the audience received each character. I did say "this is how it seems to me at least" in the post you quoted to make it clear that it was just my impression of how the characters have been received and that I am not of the belief that I am speaking factually.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

IMO Laurel had the best material in S1 (and the S2 finale). Cassidy worked really well then because she was written to work well. In S3 and S4, less so. But it's not Cassidy's fault.

 

[Slade W]

IMO Laurel had the best material in S1 (and the S2 finale). Cassidy worked really well then because she was written to work well. In S3 and S4, less so. But it's not Cassidy's fault.

I think she has done a good job too. I am a fan of both the character and the actress. She has received criticism from a lot of people though. It is not just the writing that has received criticism when it comes to the Laurel character.

 

[Fincher]

I did say "this is how it seems to me at least" in the post you quoted to make it clear that it was just my impression of how the characters have been received and that I am not of the belief that I am speaking factually.

I know, I'm just saying. Well, that and there's been talk before about whether most fans are Felicity fans or whether that's a vocal minority, and at the end there's just no way to be sure. To the extent that the writers listen to the audience, they're going to listen to people who are actually saying something rather than the silent majority we can only speculate on.

As for Laurel, the choices her character has made hasn't done the actress any favors, but...well, I'll just say she's been miscast. Partly in that she isn't who I would choose to play Black Canary, but also in that I don't think she plays emotionally tormented very well, and emotionally tormented was her thing for quite a while. I had no problem with Cassidy in Supernatural, and she's fine here in her more confident and composed moments, so hopefully they'll focus more on that from this point on (depending on how much longer she's around, that is).

 

[SpideyVille]

I liked Katie Cassidy in Supernatural, and I kinda wish she was playing Laurel similar to how she played Ruby. She was hot and could kick ass, which Arrow did show briefly in season one, but then they turned her into a damsel by season's end, and then put her in a storyline that made her look bad for most of the season. Like most things in season 3, they started her off great, even though the Black Canary transformation was a bit rushed in the "Oliver is missing" arc. But season 4 started with them completely undoing all the progress she made in terms of handling Sara's death.

I don't really think the problem is with the actress, but rather the writing. The Flash has had the same issues with Iris, where for the majority of the time, she is stuck in the "Destined-Lover" role, and when they're not the focus of the main arc, in a relationship-sense, they get tossed into half-assed stories as the writers try to figure out some way to keep them around. But with the decision to kill her off completely, it feels like they're completely giving up on the character, and what's worse, from a relationship point of view, it seems like Olicity is going to be the endgame for however long they decide to keep the show going.

 

[Paradox1]

Katie Cassidy's acting is fine and her drug addicted arc that made most people groan was award winning by a group that recognizes drug related arcs and their depiction. She's no Meryl Streep but like Her she commits to the role. In season two she lost weight to portray that addicted version of Laurel and in season three she put on muscle to become the canary. There aren't many actresses willing to put their bodies through that and she did.

 

[Slade W]

Katie Cassidy's acting is fine and her drug addicted arc that made most people groan was award winning by a group that recognizes drug related arcs and their depiction. She's no Meryl Streep but like Her she commits to the role. In season two she lost weight to portray that addicted version of Laurel and in season three she put on muscle to become the canary. There aren't many actresses willing to put their bodies through that and she did.

That is good to hear. I thought she did very well with that. I never understood the hate for her that season. I didn't agree with everything she did, but I found her actions to be understandable and also believable.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

I think she has done a good job too. I am a fan of both the character and the actress. She has received criticism from a lot of people though. It is not just the writing that has received criticism when it comes to the Laurel character.

I think it's scary that while a lot of Olicity haters will attack Felicity's character but leave EBR alone, Olicity shippers tend to blur the lines between Laurel and Katie, being outright venomous to Katie sometimes when she doesn't really deserve it. It shows a lot about the mentality of that part of the fandom, actually, and possibly about Guggenheim for listening to them so closely.

 

[SpideyVille]

Katie Cassidy's acting is fine and her drug addicted arc that made most people groan was award winning by a group that recognizes drug related arcs and their depiction. She's no Meryl Streep but like Her she commits to the role. In season two she lost weight to portray that addicted version of Laurel and in season three she put on muscle to become the canary. There aren't many actresses willing to put their bodies through that and she did.

Yeah, like looking at it overall, I see Katie's performance and think that she did her job very well. The goal was to make people pissed at Laurel, and it worked. And by season's end, she was much more likable once you realize what kind of journey she went on. Her character was purposely written to be hated, but now, people seem to hate on her just because, and it makes no sense. Like I listen to the Arrow After-show on Collider, and last season John Campea was very vocal about his hate for Laurel, especially when she was becoming the Black Canary. But even after he left and stopped watching, others still trashed on her. I can understand her early arc this season because they really killed her positive momentum, but even after the Sara arc, people still don't seem to carry for her, and it's not always because they're Olicity fans.

I think it's scary that while a lot of Olicity haters will attack Felicity's character but leave EBR alone, Olicity shippers tend to blur the lines between Laurel and Katie, being outright venomous to Katie sometimes when she doesn't really deserve it. It shows a lot about the mentality of that part of the fandom, actually, and possibly about Guggenheim for listening to them so closely.

Yeah, I mentioned a few posts above that it's really unfair to compare the actor and the character, because in reality, the actor can only control so much. More often than not, unless you're a big name actor like a RDJ, you have no control on the script. Some actors can get away with improvising lines, but you can't change the intent of the script.

 

[Paradox1]

Yeah, like looking at it overall, I see Katie's performance and think that she did her job very well. The goal was to make people pissed at Laurel, and it worked. And by season's end, she was much more likable once you realize what kind of journey she went on. Her character was purposely written to be hated, but now, people seem to hate on her just because, and it makes no sense. Like I listen to the Arrow After-show on Collider, and last season John Campea was very vocal about his hate for Laurel, especially when she was becoming the Black Canary. But even after he left and stopped watching, others still trashed on her. I can understand her early arc this season because they really killed her positive momentum, but even after the Sara arc, people still don't seem to carry for her, and it's not always because they're Olicity fans.

Yeah, I mentioned a few posts above that it's really unfair to compare the actor and the character, because in reality, the actor can only control so much. More often than not, unless you're a big name actor like a RDJ, you have no control on the script. Some actors can get away with improvising lines, but you can't change the intent of the script.

It wasn't the collider after show in season three they were still at the stream. Of the Campea's Ann is clearly the smart one. I believe John would probably say the same. Ann isn't a Laurel fan per se but she said her journey last season was one of the more redeemable parts.

 

[edonekuo]

The show's quality has dropped significantly after season 2 because of Olicity.
I stopped watching after Season 3. The whole Olicity thing is just too much.
The writers and producers destroy the character of Laurel. I'm guessing there's altercation between the writers and Katie Cassidy. So they made Felicity the main female role, which totally destroy the show because her acting is horrible.
If they're not going to change anything for Laurel, I wish they just kill her off. Its better for Cassidy to go to some other show that respects her.

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

if Laurel is suppose to die without a storyline how that work? usually a death is build up instead of bang bang death.

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

I think it's scary that while a lot of Olicity haters will attack Felicity's character but leave EBR alone, Olicity shippers tend to blur the lines between Laurel and Katie, being outright venomous to Katie sometimes when she doesn't really deserve it. It shows a lot about the mentality of that part of the fandom, actually, and possibly about Guggenheim for listening to them so closely.

it not good when the death threat are against Katie as you said for no reason. I think it just delusional because they beleive Laurel is a threat to Olicitiy and sending death threat will hopefully make Katie leave the show or something?

Why can't Laurel be around and still have their dream pairing? This entire situation is so mess up maybe Felicity leaving the show is the best way to end all this hate of characters

 

[Snow Queen]

if Laurel is suppose to die without a storyline how that work? usually a death is build up instead of bang bang death.

I think how they handled Roy, knowing they only had him a little while longer, says it all.

 

[Syncos]

I just want to say, I think Laurel was handled super well (and acted super well) in the Vixen episode. I loved how mature and collected she was when dealing with the mother of Oliver's child. And then her little mini breakdown she had at the police station.

Also, to reply to a lot of the comments in this thread: Fans resonating with and rallying behind a character (felicity) doesn't make Laurel a bad character, or Katie a bad actress. People just connected to a different type of character; an "everyman".

There have been moments where i've hated Laurel in the run of the show. Usually because of writing. Katie always seems to make the best of what she's given, and she's become one of my favourite characters.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Seemed like such a waste to even start a Laurel/Mari friendship.

 

[AspieXLDS]

Seemed like such a waste to even start a Laurel/Mari friendship.

Well, this definitely means that even if Laurel isn't dead, she's not in the current episode being filmed which, since its in the final run of episodes, probably means she will, at best, show up in the finale. If she's not dead, she either took that offer she gets in 4x18 or will be in a coma.