Discussion in 'Arrow' started by Thread Manager, May 26, 2016.
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]506219[/split]
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]494355[/split]
Barry's actions in The Flash finale will bring her back, and make her better than ever.....! Probably not but here's hoping.
I haven't been watching Arrow at all since the mid season point. Now the season's at a close, did they address what Laurel said to Oliver before her death?
I thought they'd reveal what she said in Season 5.
Yeah, Guggenheim said we wouldn't learn until next season.
Seems as though Laurel's character has more threads devoted to her than any other character in this show. Alas, if only MG could see this.
For me, the show will always have lost something as I was a fan of Laurel and she has played a big part in my enjoyment of the show over the years. That said, I think for a lot of people the show can be good-great without her. The two seasons that are considered the best, Laurel was not one of the main Team Arrow characters. If she was killed off in season 1 or 2 (maybe even for a big part of season 3), I doubt many people would have cared (or at least a lot of online fans wouldn't have, as we can not tell what people who do not comment online think). I, personally, never met anyone in real life that hated Laurel as much as people online did back in the earlier seasons, but that is just my experience. I also disagree with a lot of the reasons people had for not liking her back then.
If the show reached the quality of season 1 and 2 again, I think most people would move on and forget about her. This season, she was considered as one of the few watchable things for people. If season 1 and 2 were great for a lot of people with her not being a main reason for them being good, there is no reason future seasons cannot be the same. That said, if this season was anything to go by, an improvement is very unlikely. I would love it if it had an Angel season 5 resurgence, but I see little reason to get my hopes up for such a thing.
For me, even if future seasons improve, the show will never really be truly the same as Laurel played a big part in it for me. Even re-watching the past seasons with her in them will not be the same for me, as I now know what her ultimate fate is and I consider it to be depressing and an unsuitable end for a character that more should have been done with. Not only is Guggenheim ruining the present and future, he is also somehow managing to ruin the past. Bravo Guggenheim.
Probably because they haven't even come up with what she said. Sorta like they didn't know who was going to die at the start of the season.
Amell said in an interview that he knows what her last words were. I assume that it was already filmed.
They tried really hard to make it seem like Laurels death had a huge effect on everyone. Could've put her in a coma and got the same result.
I think I saw an comment or two elsewhere , where some Felicity fans think that her holding onto Laurel's baton and putting the canary costume back into place is an sign that she'll become the next canary on the show.lol
Just some general ideas I had that I wish how they had treated Laurel and her storylines throughout the years:
Season 1: Instead of introducing us to Laurel at CNRI and hearing Oliver was alive I would have loved it if they opened introduced us to her in the gym or some type of fighting dojo/Wildcats Gym. The way I envision it is we see her training some basic martial arts moves, the news comes on talking about Oliver Queen being alive, this gets her attention, throws her off, she is flipped down onto the mat.and we see her staring at the tv in confusion.
She could still be a lawyer for CNRI but martial arts helps her quell her anger over what happened to her sister, her boyfriend, her family, and the general idea that Sara/Oliver were cheating on her behind her back.
I always thought that it didn’t make sense that Laurel had to go through a 3 year “island” to finally suit up. Losing Sara a 2nd time and losing Tommy in S1 were no more impactful then her already losing her sister/Oliver/her family before the series began. What she went through off pre-show WAS her island. She already loved and lost in every way imaginable.
Season 2: Enter Black Canary! Crime hasn’t been AS rampant as it was during S1 but the gangs/warlords/kingpins have been slowly raising their forces again. Due to Tommys death and The Hood not being seen since the end of Season 1, Laurel Lance suited up during the hiatus and has been taking down criminals as best she can.
She would be the woman shrouded in mystery for the first 1-2 episodes.
She starts out with her Canary Bombs, she only has so many so she uses them as a last measure (as Felicity/Oliver were used to help tie in Barry, Laurel would help to tie in Cisco and it would be revealed that he created some prototypes for his friend Laurel lance with a no questions asked type deal)
Laurel/Oliver would be playing a bit of cat/mouse for 2-3 episodes, she doesn’t know who Arrow is and he doesn’t know who Black Canary is. Arrow would find out who the Black Canary was and would confront her as Laurel Lance to tell her the usual “this isn’t your fight, blah blah blah” while Laurel would find out 100% that Oliver Queen is the Arrow towards the end of the season, it will be a suspicion that she always had. She would not be part of TA during S2 but would have the occasional team up with the team.
Sara Lance would reappear towards the middle of the season, she would still be part of the League of Assassins having come to town for a kill. She hasn’t seen anyone from her previous life since joining the LoA. Once she encounters Laurel and Quentin, it would start break through to her and she would reconnect with her family/Oliver but know that the LoA would come for her sooner or later so Nyssa would still come in and do her thing. She would still go by The Canary but by the LoA version, it would be something that would bond her and Laurel as they both grew up loving Canaries.
Laurel would probably spend 10 episodes of S2 suited up as she would be weighing her life as a lawyer and a part-time vigilante. Once Arrow comes back she steps back into the shadows towards the end of the season since she would feel the Black Canary was not needed full time.
Now that everything is out on the table, Oliver/Laurel have been working more together. He catches em, she puts em away. She has been getting to know everyone on TA better, her connection to the police is a big advantage for the team and they welcome it. She hasn’t suited up as Black Canary for a while now.
Sara comes back to town at the end of the first episode, she sticks around for majority of the 2nd episode before dying in an epic fight off against Malcolm though no one knows it yet.
Laurel still asks Oliver to get revenge on whoever murdered her sister, when she sees that he would not be able to do so she contemplates suiting up again.
She knows who ever was capable of murdering her sister would not be able to be someone she could easily take down so she seeks out someone who can help her become better: Ted Grant.
Much of this portion of the season stays the same, Laurel throws herself into her training. Oliver goes off to face Ra’s and is gone for however long which prompts Laurel to move up her plans of taking up the Black Canary mantle once again and bring the now discarded TA back together as there is still work to do even if Oliver is presumed dead.
Once Oliver is back, he thanks Laurel for helping the team out while he was gone but now that he is back, she is needed more on the lawyer side, Laurel will refuse saying something like “I am done playing behind the scenes, this city is going to hell and I I refuse to sit on the sidelines any longer”. The same tension between the two of them is still there. Much of the 2nd half of the season is the same, Canaries, Nyssa/Malcolm still happen. Olicity end up leaving like they did.
Start of the season is the same, they bring Oliver back, Laurel finds out about the lazarus pit and we actually see the thoughts going on in her mind, should she do it, should she leave her sister at peace, one thing she does know for certain though: Thea is here and now and needs help with her lazarus effects. We see them approach Sara’s grave not knowing what Laurel decided on, they could just be there to give their love or to bury her up. Once they walk up to her grave the big difference this time is: It’s dug up and Sara’s body is gone.
They still go to NP thinking Nyssa or someone took it. Nyssa ends up destroying the LP, not because of Sara since she doesn’t know what has happened to her beloved, but to get revenge on Malcolm so he will not have the liberty of living forever like her father did.
The team is baffled at Sara’s body being gone and while it feels like deja vu, they have to deal with the new big bad in town at the moment, Damien Darhk, and he has a surprise in store for them. A woman has been running around town killing people and we come to find out that it is one of DDs right hand women. When the team finally confronts her she looks suspiciously like Black Canary.
DD has somehow brought Sara back in order to keep Quentin under his grasp. The team mange to fight Sara and chain her up in the arrow cave. Laurel desperately tries to get through to her sister who nearly feral.
Sara ends up breaking out and her/Thea happen. Oliver is willing to put Sara down in order to save his sister, while Laurel loves Thea, she is not ready to give up on Sara just yet, as Oliver is about to taking a killing shot to Sara, this leads to a brief fight against the Black Canary and Green Arrow.
Constantine and all that happens, Sara is restored, we get our Canary Sisters
Much of S4 still happens except we get to 11:59….while Laurel is badly injured
She does not die. The best man she has ever known in her life however..
Laurel is out of commission for an episode or two due to her injuries and grieving her father. She crosses over to The Flash to visit her mother to break the news, while she is there she helps the team and is hit with the particle accelerator along with Jesse and Wally. Everything seems to be normal except we all know what it leads to
But that won’t come into play during S4
They defeat DD, Laurel Lance is emotionally and physically exhausted. She lost the person she loved the most in this world, she feels lost, she doesn’t want her mother or sister to worry about her but she needs to regroup. She has tried so hard to keep her city safe, save the world, but is it really worth it? And with that she says
Laurel Lance as we know her is gone, she quits her job, leaves Star City, next time we see her someone will say “Laurel” and she will look at them and say “It’s Dinah” and she will have to come to terms with her new found meta human abilities.
That is good stuff. I like/love the vast majority of it. But what difficulty would you have her go through in season 2? A lot of the characters were feeling guilt and pain and were in a dark place in season 2, or a crucible if you will, but only the strongest were able to come out on the other side, whereas the likes of Slade, Malcolm, and Rochev were not. What would you have had Laurel go through that season?
Also, Oliver wanting Sara to be killed this season does not fit his journey at all. He was moving away from such desperate actions this season, so it would go against Oliver this season.
In season 3, Oliver believed that the ends justify the means and that you must do what it takes to stop the enemy, especially against a foe as formidable and resourceful as Ra's. Amanda Waller teaching Oliver to torture people to get what he wants, and him doing it to people. Oliver was willing to work with Malcolm so that he could beat Ra's, and even handed him the LOA because he felt that it was worth it. Oliver bringing Thea back with the Lazarus pit, even though he knew that there would be consequences. Oliver joining the LOA because he felt it was the only way to take them down. Oliver killing the LOA member and Ra's al Ghul, because he thought there was no other way to beat the LOA, despite his no-kill rule. Oliver willing to kill himself in a plane-crash, so that he would take Ra's with him.
In season 3, Oliver would have done it, but not this season. If you wanted to fit all that in with the season you would have to change that. Unless that is actually what happened in the episode and Oliver did want Sara to be killed. I cannot remember that episode perfectly, but seeing as how inconsistently the writers have written the characters, it would not surprise me if they did have Oliver suggest such a thing, even though it goes against his journey this season.
I hope they bring Dinah Laurel as Black Canary in Supergirl as her Earth's version of it.
What would I have go through in S2? hmm....I think having to deal with having to be one to prosecute Moira vs. her previous relationship with her, along with dealing with a possible rekindling between Oliver/Sara and having to face that head on would be enough personal turmoil to deal with.
Yeah, S4 Oliver wasn't as big on killing but I feel like if he saw Sara as being feral and putting his sisters life in danger, he would probably want to give her a mercy killing just to give her peace again. TA would try to break through to her at first but once she broke out and was killing people, someone would have to take a stand if things get out of control.
Katie was 10x better as Black Siren in The Flash than her whole run in Arrow.
It's hard for me to believe anything these guys say about their show.
When it comes to them speaking about how great something will be or how everything will turn out ok, I find that understandable. But when it comes to them talking about something that happened, I find it easier to take their word for it. The scene was probably already filmed, unless the plan is to get Katie back for an episode or something. I highly doubt Amell is lying about this. If he says that it is going to be incredible or something, then I understand it if people take what he says with a pinch of salt.
I think by "I know what she said", I highly doubt it's because she actually said something. I think it's way more likely that he knows because Guggenheim and Co. know what they want her to have said.
Remember, by the time that episode aired, filming was just about done for the season, so even if they wanted to include a scene, it would have been too late because they were wrapping up, hence why we won't find out until next season. The writers are back now working on next season, so it is very plausible that Amell knows now because they've discussed it and know what they want her words to be as a way of relating things for the upcoming season.
Either way, I don't trust these guys any more.
For the most part, I don't take what actors, writers, directors or other people involved movies, TV shows, books or comics say about their product at face-value as they usually exaggerate and make things sound much better than they are.
As someone who has acted a bit (mostly theater), there's two wyas about it. The first is the most obvious, you're part of a project and you want to promote it because it's your job and the better that project does, the better things will be for you in the long haul. So you may know the project is utter garbage, but you need to do your best to get people hyped.
But the second is, sometimes you're so close to a project, and you see all the hard work that a lot of people do, and you speak from that aspect, as opposed to speaking about the final project itself. You don't look at it objectively for what it is, and you kinda have a bias in that sense.
With that said, I was really disappointed when I saw that Echo Kellum would be on the Collider After Show recap, because, as expected, they gave it positive reviews and praised many things about, as opposed to the Flash team that praised things about that show, but also shared their gripes about the season as a whole. It's why I really love the Quiver podcast, because despite having Amell on their a couple of years ago, they are very honest about their feelings and have no issue being critical.
Primal Slayer, your ideas for Laurel's story are terrific. They totally should've gone that route rather than the one they did. Thanks for sharing!